Remember The Oregon Bakery?

[Mystery Meat]

Sheess. The bakery is claiming that by baking a cake for a SSM then they are condoning something that is against their beliefs simply by providing the cake.

 

I know that. But how is any of that other stuff related to their position on SSM?

 

(I will save you the trouble: it's not. At least not from a legal perspective. If you were representing the lesbian couple in a legal action and raised the issue that they made a cake for a divorce to try and discredit their religious belief as it relates to SSM, you would get laughed out of the courtroom.)

 

Also, do you have the details of the divorce in which they made a cake for? What if it was for a woman who got out of an abusive relationship? How about the out of wedlock baby? Was it a baby shower? Is the birth of a baby itself a sin?

[Danzo]

If the bakery claims that making a cake for a same sex marriage means that they are participating in that marriage and condoning it then they also have to believe that they are participating and condoning every other event they make cakes for.

 

All you are doing is accusing them of being a hypocrite. This is something we all are guilty of from time to time. If we have to wait to be sin free before preaching against sin then there could be no preaching against sin.

 

For what every reason (the magic 8 ball, a sudden moral awareness, brain damage, guilty conscience) they felt that the engagement to bake a cake was participating in a type of marriage that they were morally opposed to.

 

Even if you wouldn't think so (and I am not sure I would either), can you at least see that position?  Although I don't bake cakes for a living, I know people who do.  It is often the case that some people poor out their soul in creating something beautiful to celebrate something beautiful.  At my wedding, I could care less what the cake looked like (or even if there was a cake). But some people do care, and see at as something important. 

 

Do you think the poor couple that had to find another bakery suffered $135,000 worth,  do you think the bakers' should get the death penalty for this offence (or just the death penalty for their business and bankruptcy).

Edited July 7, 2015 by Danzo

[california boy]

I know that. But how is any of that other stuff related to their position on SSM?

 

(I will save you the trouble: it's not. At least not from a legal perspective. If you were representing the lesbian couple in a legal action and raised the issue that they made a cake for a divorce to try and discredit their religious belief as it relates to SSM, you would get laughed out of the courtroom.)

 

Also, do you have the details of the divorce in which they made a cake for? What if it was for a woman who got out of an abusive relationship? How about the out of wedlock baby? Was it a baby shower? Is the birth of a baby itself a sin?

Let me try it this way. Do you believe that by baking a cake for a SSM you are condoning or participating in that wedding?

If you bake a cake celebrating a divorce are you condoning or participating in a divorce ?

If you bake a cake celebrating the birth of a illegitimate child are you condoning or participating in fornication ?

If you bake a cake for a pagan ritual are you condoning or participating in pagan ritual?

Ore are you simply baking a cake for your customers?

[california boy]

All you are doing is accusing them of being a hypocrite. This is something we all are guilty of from time to time. If we have to wait to be sin free before preaching against sin then there could be no preaching against sin.

For what every reason (the magic 8 ball, a sudden moral awareness, brain damage, guilty conscience) they felt that the engagement to bake a cake was participating in a type of marriage that they were morally opposed to.

Even if you wouldn't think so (and I am not sure I would either), can you at least see that position? Although I don't bake cakes for a living, I know people who do. It is often the case that some people poor out their soul in creating something beautiful to celebrate something beautiful. At my wedding, I could care less what the cake looked like (or even if there was a cake). But some people do care, and see at as something important.

Do you think the poor couple that had to find another bakery suffered $135,000 worth, do you think the bakers' should get the death penalty for this offence (or just the death penalty for their business and bankruptcy).

Absolutely I feel they are being hyprocritical. Don't you? It is up to the judge if he questions their commitment to their " deeply held Christian beliefs"

It is my understanding that when the complaint was first being investigated they were asked to stop discriminating against gay couples. It was explained to them that they had broken the law. they were asked if they would stop discriminating. They refused to change their policy. It was only after their refusal to obey Oregon law that the fine was imposed. It was their choice. The law is just being carried out. They say they will appeal. The courts will decide if the fine is justified. That is how things work.

The poor couple that had to find another bakery did not sue the bakery. They only filed a complaint with the authorities. It is the government of Oregon that is bringing the legal action against the bakery for failure to obey state law

Do I want to see them go out of. business? Of course not. Do I think they should be fined $135,000. Not if they are willing to stop discriminating Do I think someone can. Break the law and not be subject to consequences? No, do you?

Edited July 8, 2015 by california boy

[Danzo]

I was chatting with one of the attorneys representing sweet cakes today about the case.(we are working together on an unrelated case) 

 

Apparently there is a lot of detail that goes into baking a wedding cake. It starts with sketches that are constantly reviewed by the client. Then it proceeds to clay models before the final thing is made.

 

It would appear that baking a wedding cake does resemble making a work of art. These things are completely custom made.

 

Apparently the "Art is Speech" argument may be part of the appeal. Knowing how slow the Oregon Court of Appeals is, we will be having this online discussion in a couple of years when the appeal is decided (and if they appeal that, our discussion could be a biannual event) 

[Danzo]

Absolutely I feel they are being hypricitical

 

Is this sin the unpardonable sin?

Edited July 8, 2015 by Danzo

[Danzo]

Absolutely I feel they are being hypriciticL. Don't you? It is up to the judge if he questions their commitment to their " deeply held Christian beliefs"

It is my understanding that when the complInt was first being investigated they were asked to stop discriminating against gay couples. It was explained to them that they had broken the law. they were asked if they would stop discriminating. They refused to change their policy. It was only after their refusal to obey Oregon law that the fine was imposed. It was their choice. The law is just being carried out. They say they will appeal. The courts will decide if the fine is justified. That is how things work.

The poor couple that had to find another bakery did not sue the bakery. They only filed a complaint with the authorities. It is the government of Oregon that is bringing the legal action against the bakery for failure to obey state law

 

This is an action by BOLI also known as Brad Avakian. He is known for using the authority of his office to issue extremely high fines just to make a political statement.  The amount of the fines are entirely discretionary. Unfortunately, Oregon as a state is not very good at due process there is no independent review. Up until now everything that has transpired has been a  show trial where the verdict was known before hand.   Anything and everything the ALJ decided could be overturned by Brad on a whim and the ALJ knows that. Reducing the fine by 15k was about all he could get away with.

 

I don't know anyone who sees any logic in the size of the fine there just isn't any. 

 

We will see what the court of appeals says (which will be the first independent review of the case).

 

Appealing administrative decisions in Oregon is very time consuming  and expensive.  Agencies in Oregon know that so they pretty much follow the law only when it suits them.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Danzo

[california boy]

I was chatting with one of the attorneys representing sweet cakes today about the case.(we are working together on an unrelated case)

Apparently there is a lot of detail that goes into baking a wedding cake. It starts with sketches that are constantly reviewed by the client. Then it proceeds to clay models before the final thing is made.

It would appear that baking a wedding cake does resemble making a work of art. These things are completely custom made.

Apparently the "Art is Speech" argument may be part of the appeal. Knowing how slow the Oregon Court of Appeals is, we will be having this online discussion in a couple of years when the appeal is decided (and if they appeal that, our discussion could be a biannual event)

However this case comes out legally is fine with me. That is how our government works. If there is a law that I disagree with i work to change that law. I certainly don't expect that I can break the law that I disagree with and not face consequences. I assume the bakers feel the same way.

Do you know if this bakery does clay models for all of their wedding cakes or just when requested? Was.a clay mockup asked for by the gay couple?

Edited July 8, 2015 by california boy

[california boy]

Is this sin the unpardonable sin?

Of course not. But I wouldn't be surprised if the judge doesn't take that hypocrisy into consideration when ruling on this case

I would expect the bakers will be asked the same questions about divorce etc that I asked. I will be anxious to hear their answers. Even if it is in a couple of years

Edited July 8, 2015 by california boy

[Mystery Meat]

Let me try it this way. Do you believe that by baking a cake for a SSM you are condoning or participating in that wedding?

If you bake a cake celebrating a divorce are you condoning or participating in a divorce ?

If you bake a cake celebrating the birth of a illegitimate child are you condoning or participating in fornication ?

If you bake a cake for a pagan ritual are you condoning or participating in pagan ritual?

Ore are you simply baking a cake for your customers?

 

It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what the couple who owns the baker think. My answers to all of those questions are completely irrelevant.

[Mystery Meat]

Absolutely I feel they are being hyprocritical. Don't you? It is up to the judge if he questions their commitment to their " deeply held Christian beliefs"

 

No it is not up to the judge. The judge does not get to interpret their commitment to their deeply held religious beliefs. That would be such a violation of, well, everything. If a judge did try to interpret their commitment to their "deeply held Christian beliefs" by saying, "Their Christian belief that SSM is a sin is not actually Christian because they baked a cake for divorce celebration, and Jesus does not like divorce and therefore they are not really Christian and are hypocrites," the opinion would be overruled so fast, the issuing judge would be reprimanded (if not removed), called stupid by smart people, etc. It is none of the judge's business how committed the couple is to their deeply held Christian beliefs. To even suggest this is beyond ridiculous. It doesn't even come close to factoring in to a court of law. What you are saying is that a court should evaluation their commitment to their deeply held Christian beliefs and that is absolutely bat crap crazy. Judge's interpret law, not the Bible or individuals adherence to it. That job is for priests, pastors, bishops and other members of the clergy.

[Mystery Meat]

Of course not. But I wouldn't be surprised if the judge doesn't take that hypocrisy into consideration when ruling on this case

I would expect the bakers will be asked the same questions about divorce etc that I asked. I will be anxious to hear their answers. Even if it is in a couple of years

 

Oh my word. I so hope this is part of the decision. It would be grounds for the decision getting overturned, the judge mocked and embarrassment for the state of Oregon. Whatever the judge's decision it HAS to be based on legal precedent and statutory law NOT the bible. Chances are if opposing counsel asked the bakers about their hypocrisy/bible/etc. the couple's attorney would say, "Objection. Relevance." and the judge would say, "Sustained. Don't be an idiot counselor."

 

It might be okay for me and you to consider it, but it has no place in the courtroom.

[why me]

America is certainly not a country of free speech these days. One needs to be careful with what one says and does. One slip up and a career is ruined or in shreds. Not to mention one's reputation. What does the slogan  home of the brave, land of the free mean? What happened to the bakery is what is happening to countless people who run foul of the political correct thought police. Look what is happening to donald trump because of his off the cuff remarks and how companies are reacting to pressure from social media. And yet, these companies made millions of dollars from their relationship with his business dealings.

 

I think that there is too much tension in the US right now. But certainly, those individuals who are christian and who take stands against gay marriage or any other stand that political correct activists don't like will face the wrath of anger from the social media and the angst of many people who wish to destroy careers over what was said or written. The bakery is just a small example of the future. However, I still watch on youtube the dean martin roasts, a time when people were not so uptight. I love those comedians of various of colors and stripes. If they would tell those jokes now, their careers would be destroyed.

Edited July 8, 2015 by why me

[TheSkepticChristian]

delete 

Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

I think that there is too much tension in the US right now. But certainly, those individuals who are christian and who take stands against gay marriage or any other stand that political correct activists don't like will face the wrath of anger from the social media and the angst of many people who wish to destroy careers over what was said or written. The bakery is just a small example of the future. However, I still watch on youtube the dean martin roasts, a time when people were not so uptight. I love those comedians of various of colors and stripes. If they would tell those jokes now, their careers would be destroyed.

 

Jesus said in Matthew 7:5,  "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. " 

 

What happens if a BYU student is "persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching" that gay marriage is not a sin? 

 

 

Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU. The term “good Honor Code standing” means that a student’s conduct is consistent with the Honor Code and the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing…Disaffiliation is defined for purposes of this policy as removal of an individual’s name from the official records of the Church

http://saas.byu.edu/catalog/2013-2014ucat/GeneralInfo/HonorCode.php

 

Which means that students can lose their university housing and campus jobs.  

 

Bytheway, 

 

Did you know that Netherlands was the first country to legalize SSM? Did you know that Netherlands is one of the most peaceful countries on Earth? Did you know that Netherlands also has a very low "income inequality"? 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[california boy]

It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what the couple who owns the baker think. My answers to all of those questions are completely irrelevant.

Let's see now. Just who was accusing me of not answering your questions just a couple of posts ago? So I answer your same question 5 or 6 times and it is you that is refusing to answer my one question to you.

What ever

What the baker "claims" is that by baking a cake for a gay wedding they think they are condoning or participating in a gay wedding simply by baking a cake. The court is going to ask them if they believe they are participating in a divorce, pagan ritual, and forenication when they bake a cake celebrating those events. Just what do you think their answer will be

[Stargazer]

Think about it for a minute. I'm LDS, I'm not an Atheist, Muslim, or gay. If I walked into your bakery and asked you to bake me a cake for my friends. What business is it of yours to ask me about those friends?

 

BTW.If your normal business practice is to bake cakes. Then NO you don't have the right to refuse service on the basis of your sincerely held beliefs.

 

PS; There are plenty of Muslims in the US Military.

 

Oh, come on.

 

You'd say that if some drunk wandered into my establishment and threw up all over my floor, I am legally obligated to sell him a wedding cake regardless of whether I want my floor so decorated?  That if a guy walked into my bakery, called me a Heeb or a Mick or a N---- and then wanted to buy a cake, I'd have to sell him the cake under penalty of law? 

 

Regardless of whether there are Muslims in the US military, there are potentially Muslim bakers here who resent US military presence in the Middle East, and might want to express that disapproval by refusing service to a Soldier.  You think he's not allowed to refuse service if he wants to refuse it?

 

What totalitarian society do you think we live in?  It's clear that some people here think we are in one now, especially after the SCOTUS ruling.  I don't have to say that I won't bake a cake because you're having a SSM.  I can just say it's because I'm superstitious, and you're the 13th person to walk through my door on that day.  Or refuse to name a reason.  Perhaps they could waterboard me to find out why I refused.

 

If a gay bakery refused to bake me a straight wedding cake, could I get the government to put them out of business?  I'd like to see that happen -- it wouldn't, I'm pretty sure.

[why me]

Jesus said in Matthew 7:5,  "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. " 

 

What happens if a BYU student is "persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching" that gay marriage is not a sin? 

 

 

Which means that students can lose their university housing and campus jobs.  

 

Bytheway, 

 

Did you know that Netherlands was the first country to legalize SSM? Did you know that Netherlands is one of the most peaceful countries on Earth? Did you know that Netherlands also has a very low "income inequality"? 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

Unfortunately, BYU's honor code was a code in place in other universities also, especially their moral code. Of course, now this code is deemed old fashioned and archaic because it is centered in christian beliefs. BYU is a private funded religious institution and as such, it has a right to conduct its policies accordingly. It is not the federal govenment.

 

I proved before that your logic is off when it comes to secular countries. For example, denmark and finland have high rates of violence against women. They actually lead europe in domestic violence with sweden following close behind. Here are the facts about the netherlands:

 

http://www.huiselijkgeweld.nl/english/factsheet

 

Violence in the private realm is the most extensive form of violence in Dutch society. Domestic violence takes place in all socio-economic classes and within all cultures. Women and children are the most likely victims but men, parents and elderly people also fall victim to this type of violence.

Research indicates that more than 40% of the Dutch population have experienced domestic violence at some point in their lives. Ten per cent of this group experiences this form of violence everyday or every week. Nearly one third of those who experience this violence have seen their lives changed drastically as a result. This type of violence is predominantly committed by men, constituting 80% of all cases.

The most recent police figures confirm this.

 

These secular countries could use a good dose of lds teachings on the family and what it means to be a family.

 

Or this fact:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/violent-dutch-gangwar-spreads-across-europe-9923371.html

 

I think that you need to rethink what you are saying.

Edited July 8, 2015 by why me

[california boy]

No it is not up to the judge. The judge does not get to interpret their commitment to their deeply held religious beliefs. That would be such a violation of, well, everything. If a judge did try to interpret their commitment to their "deeply held Christian beliefs" by saying, "Their Christian belief that SSM is a sin is not actually Christian because they baked a cake for divorce celebration, and Jesus does not like divorce and therefore they are not really Christian and are hypocrites," the opinion would be overruled so fast, the issuing judge would be reprimanded (if not removed), called stupid by smart people, etc. It is none of the judge's business how committed the couple is to their deeply held Christian beliefs. To even suggest this is beyond ridiculous. It doesn't even come close to factoring in to a court of law. What you are saying is that a court should evaluation their commitment to their deeply held Christian beliefs and that is absolutely bat crap crazy. Judge's interpret law, not the Bible or individuals adherence to it. That job is for priests, pastors, bishops and other members of the clergy.

You are right. It doesn't matter one bit what their religious beliefs are in a court of law. And that is the reason they have been fined by the state of Oregon for breaking the law. The question. Is do they have grounds for an appeal. It is the baker that has to convince the court that baking a cake is a. Violation of their religious beliefs. Good luck with that. By their own actions baking a cake is just that. Baking a cake. It is not a statement of religious beliefs. It is why you also did not want to answer my questions to you. Even you don't believe that baking a cake celebrating an illegitimate birth mean you condone or participate in fornication.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 Refusing to bake a cake for a couple is called discrimination. 

 

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acknowledges that same-sex attraction is a sensitive issue which requires kindness

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng&query=gays

Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[CV75]

Wasn't that the argument of many people with regard to their attitude towards Mormons? That "[It was] not a matter of "we don't serve your kind" but a matter of "you are crossing a religious line I do not observe.""?

That depends; Im sure both dymanics have been demonstrated -- what is the specific instance you have in mind?

[TheSkepticChristian]

BYU is a private funded religious institution and as such, it has a right to conduct its policies accordingly. It is not the federal govenment.

 

You said that Christians lose their jobs, you didn't specify that private institutions didn't count. 

In many states, employers can refuse to hire transsexuals.

https://www.aclu.org/map/non-discrimination-laws-state-state-information-map

 

 

I proved before that your logic is off when it comes to secular countries. For example, denmark and finland have high rates of violence against women. They actually lead europe in domestic violence with sweden following close behind. 

 

CFR about Denmark, findland, and sweden, and is it higher than the USA? According to the Global Peace Index Report, Denmark, findland, and sweden are among the most peaceful countries on Earth.The UK, france, and Italy are less peaceful. 

 

http://www.visionofhumanity.org/

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eglg45fglkm/peaceable-kingdoms/

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/most-peaceful-countries

 

 

Here are the facts about the netherlands:

 

but how does it compare to the USA? Netherlands is not on the top 10, but it ranks number 20 according to the Global Peace Index Report. 

 

 

 

Or this fact:

 

more peaceful doesn't mean totally peaceful. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Mystery Meat]

Let's see now. Just who was accusing me of not answering your questions just a couple of posts ago? So I answer your same question 5 or 6 times and it is you that is refusing to answer my one question to you.

What ever

What the baker "claims" is that by baking a cake for a gay wedding they think they are condoning or participating in a gay wedding simply by baking a cake. The court is going to ask them if they believe they are participating in a divorce, pagan ritual, and forenication when they bake a cake celebrating those events. Just what do you think their answer will be

 

Sigh....

 

I am a lawyer. I went to law school. If the court asks them things like that and/or bases their decision on their inconsistency of living up to their Christian beliefs according to how the Court understands Christianity, then the decision will be overturned. A judge who did that would be incredibly stupid. It is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in a courtroom.

 

I have already answered your questions many, many times. I don't think I agree with how this couple has handled the situation at all (but the difference between you and this lesbian couple and me is that I am not so arrogant to think that if someone disagrees with me or my lifestyle, that they should be guilty of some violation of law). I didn't answer THIS TIME, because my opinion about those things do not matter as it pertains to a legal analysis of whether this couple should be entitled to make a faith based decision. Meanwhile you will continue to ignore my statements that bringing up any perceived inconsistency would be bad form in a courtroom because it doesn't do your viewpoint any favors.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[Mystery Meat]

You are right. It doesn't matter one bit what their religious beliefs are in a court of law. And that is the reason they have been fined by the state of Oregon for breaking the law. The question. Is do they have grounds for an appeal. It is the baker that has to convince the court that baking a cake is a. Violation of their religious beliefs. Good luck with that. By their own actions baking a cake is just that. Baking a cake. It is not a statement of religious beliefs. It is why you also did not want to answer my questions to you. Even you don't believe that baking a cake celebrating an illegitimate birth mean you condone or participate in fornication.

 

I don't even know what you are trying to say anymore...

[TheSkepticChristian]

If a gay bakery refused to bake me a straight wedding cake, could I get the government to put them out of business?  I'd like to see that happen -- it wouldn't, I'm pretty sure.

 

Yes, if the straight couple files a lawsuit, and if they have a good lawyer. Oregon has a nondiscrimination laws which protect people from being fired or refused services on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity. 

 

PS Can you name a gay bakery that refused to bake a straight wedding cake?