Maestrophil Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Am I the only one who sees a difference between baking a cake - like a generic cake - and having someone pick it up and use it for whatever purpose, and actually making a cake and writing the words that are against your beliefs? In other words- if I was just making a cake for someone who picked it up and were going to serve it at a KKK rally, I might not (actually would not even) KNOW what the intended use of the cake would be. But if the KKK guy (Or lady) came in and announced' "I want you to make me a cake in the shape of a white hood for my KKK rally and I want it to say 'send all N*&^rs back to Africa!" I might feel the need to refuse such a service. Is that discrimination? What about if they asked me to make a "Homosexuals are idiots" cake? I would feel like saying no. Should we be forced to do things like that in this country? What about a Jew making a Nazi cake? It just does not seem that hard for me to comprehend that some things cross lines for certain people and that freedom should be protected. Besides, if I went to a bakery that would not bake me an Angel Moroni cake for a baptism because they are offended by Mormonism, I would not want to give them my business. I would gladly go elsewhere where someone would be happy to make such a cake (and I would be more sure they would not spit in my batter for being forced to make the cake.!) :-) Edited to add - I tend to believe in letting the free market dictate these things more than the government Edited July 6, 2015 by Maestrophil 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Or maybe people want a United States of Freedom of Association. Okay, should employers be allow to discriminate someone in a SSM? Come now. How many LDS employers would refuse to hire someone just for being in a SSM?
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 How many LDS employers would refuse to hire someone just for being in a SSM? I have no idea and neither do you.
Danzo Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Am I the only one who sees a difference between baking a cake - like a generic cake - and having someone pick it up and use it for whatever purpose, and actually making a cake and writing the words that are against your beliefs? In other words- if I was just making a cake for someone who picked it up and were going to serve it at a KKK rally, I might not (actually would not even) KNOW what the intended use of the cake would be. But if the KKK guy (Or lady) came in and announced' "I want you to make me a cake in the shape of a white hood for my KKK rally and I want it to say 'send all N*&^rs back to Africa!" I might feel the need to refuse such a service. Is that discrimination? What about if they asked me to make a "Homosexuals are idiots" cake? I would feel like saying no. Should we be forced to do things like that in this country? What about a Jew making a Nazi cake? It just does not seem that hard for me to comprehend that some things cross lines for certain people and that freedom should be protected. Besides, if I went to a bakery that would not bake me an Angel Moroni cake for a baptism because they are offended by Mormonism, I would not want to give them my business. I would gladly go elsewhere where someone would be happy to make such a cake (and I would be more sure they would not spit in my batter for being forced to make the cake.!) :-) Edited to add - I tend to believe in letting the free market dictate these things more than the government I think you raise a good issue. Sometimes when you sell a product all you are doing is acting as the middle man between the manufacturer and the end customer. Other times, the product you are selling can be described as a work of art that is an expression of your values and ideals. Could an artist, who sells his paintings and paints for commissions be forced to paint something for someone he abhors (portrait of General Lee, or Nathan Bedford Forrest, Auschwitz at its prime etc? Is a wedding cake a work of art or just an end product? Can it be a work of Art? 2
Storm Rider Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Okay, should employers be allow to discriminate someone in a SSM? How many LDS employers would refuse to hire someone just for being in a SSM? Why would their marital relationship have anything to do with it? I am not really sure you understand humans much less LDS. 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Why would their marital relationship have anything to do with it? I am not really sure you understand humans much less LDS. because some religious employers don't want gays to support their SSM family. It's only Christians. I've never heard of Muslim bakeries being targeted. Nor Jewish. Maybe some here have heard otherwise.It appears to be targeted at Christians. The sad reality is that the most peaceful nations in the world are not religious Christian. http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eglg45fglkm/peaceable-kingdoms/ Just look at the murder rate of Sweden, Vietnam, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Czech Rep, Finlandhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country The Global Peace Index indicated Iceland, New Zealand, Switzerland and Finland to be the most peaceful countries in the world. Netherlands is among the most peaceful nations, Netherlands was also the first country to legalize same sex marriage.http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/indexes/global-peace-index Edited July 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Netherlands is among the most peaceful nations, Netherlands was also the first country to legalize same sex marriage.http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/indexes/global-peace-index Connect the dots for me. I am not seeing the causation.
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Connect the dots for me. I am not seeing the causation. I am not saying that Netherlands is peaceful because it legalized same-sex marriage, there are many reasons why Netherlands is peaceful. However, the sad reality is that Christian teachings don't lower the murder rate of a country, but it should. PS it shows that SSM doesn't necessarily transform a country to Sodom and Gumorrah. The Sky is Falling Edited July 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I am not saying that Netherlands is peaceful because it legalized same-sex marriage, there are many reasons why Netherlands is peaceful. However, the sad reality is that Christian teachings don't lower the murder rate of a country, but it should. PS it shows that SSM doesn't necessarily transform a country to Sodom and Gumorrah. The Sky is Falling Your arguments would make more sense if they were relevant. What does christian teachings have to do with the murder rate? Is it the Christians who are doing all the murdering? To teach SSM is wrong does not equate to teaching it will transform a country to Sodom and Gumorrah. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Am I the only one who sees a difference between baking a cake - like a generic cake - and having someone pick it up and use it for whatever purpose, and actually making a cake and writing the words that are against your beliefs? In other words- if I was just making a cake for someone who picked it up and were going to serve it at a KKK rally, I might not (actually would not even) KNOW what the intended use of the cake would be. But if the KKK guy (Or lady) came in and announced' "I want you to make me a cake in the shape of a white hood for my KKK rally and I want it to say 'send all N*&^rs back to Africa!" I might feel the need to refuse such a service. Is that discrimination? What about if they asked me to make a "Homosexuals are idiots" cake? I would feel like saying no. Should we be forced to do things like that in this country? What about a Jew making a Nazi cake? It just does not seem that hard for me to comprehend that some things cross lines for certain people and that freedom should be protected.Besides, if I went to a bakery that would not bake me an Angel Moroni cake for a baptism because they are offended by Mormonism, I would not want to give them my business. I would gladly go elsewhere where someone would be happy to make such a cake (and I would be more sure they would not spit in my batter for being forced to make the cake.!) :-)Edited to add - I tend to believe in letting the free market dictate these things more than the governmentAll wedding cakes I've seen are fairly generic and none have had any type of writing. There is no such thing as a "gay wedding cake."
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 All wedding cakes I've seen are fairly generic and none have had any type of writing. There is no such thing as a "gay wedding cake." Haven't been to many weddings have you? 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Your arguments would make more sense if they were relevant. What does christian teachings have to do with the murder rate? Nothing, I am simply saying Christian teachings don't help a nation as a whole. It helps individuals, but not the entire nation on average. Is it the Christians who are doing all the murdering? I don't know, all I know is that non-christian and non-muslim countries have a lower crime rate. To teach SSM is wrong does not equate to teaching it will transform a country to Sodom and Gumorrah. Good, but my Bishop said that our country will transform to Sodom and Gumorrah.
tonie Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Am I the only one who sees a difference between baking a cake - like a generic cake - and having someone pick it up and use it for whatever purpose, and actually making a cake and writing the words that are against your beliefs? In other words- if I was just making a cake for someone who picked it up and were going to serve it at a KKK rally, I might not (actually would not even) KNOW what the intended use of the cake would be. But if the KKK guy (Or lady) came in and announced' "I want you to make me a cake in the shape of a white hood for my KKK rally and I want it to say 'send all N*&^rs back to Africa!" I might feel the need to refuse such a service. Is that discrimination? What about if they asked me to make a "Homosexuals are idiots" cake? I would feel like saying no. Should we be forced to do things like that in this country? What about a Jew making a Nazi cake? It just does not seem that hard for me to comprehend that some things cross lines for certain people and that freedom should be protected.Besides, if I went to a bakery that would not bake me an Angel Moroni cake for a baptism because they are offended by Mormonism, I would not want to give them my business. I would gladly go elsewhere where someone would be happy to make such a cake (and I would be more sure they would not spit in my batter for being forced to make the cake.!) :-)Edited to add - I tend to believe in letting the free market dictate these things more than the governmentIt is easy to sit behind a keyboard and "I would do this or that".How often have you been explicitly discriminated against due to your religious beliefs. For instance when was the last 5 times you were denied services due directly to your religipus beliefs?
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Nothing, I am simply saying Christian teachings don't help a nation as a whole. It helps individuals, but not the entire nation on average. I don't know, all I know is that non-christian and non-muslim countries have a lower crime rate. Good, but my Bishop said that our country will transform to Sodom and Gumorrah. The only way you can help a country is to help individuals. A country is made of individuals. I still do not see a causal connection. We will just have to wait and see if your Bishop is also a Prophet.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Am I the only one who sees a difference between baking a cake - like a generic cake - and having someone pick it up and use it for whatever purpose, and actually making a cake and writing the words that are against your beliefs? In other words- if I was just making a cake for someone who picked it up and were going to serve it at a KKK rally, I might not (actually would not even) KNOW what the intended use of the cake would be. But if the KKK guy (Or lady) came in and announced' "I want you to make me a cake in the shape of a white hood for my KKK rally and I want it to say 'send all N*&^rs back to Africa!" I might feel the need to refuse such a service. Is that discrimination? What about if they asked me to make a "Homosexuals are idiots" cake? I would feel like saying no. Should we be forced to do things like that in this country? What about a Jew making a Nazi cake? It just does not seem that hard for me to comprehend that some things cross lines for certain people and that freedom should be protected. Besides, if I went to a bakery that would not bake me an Angel Moroni cake for a baptism because they are offended by Mormonism, I would not want to give them my business. I would gladly go elsewhere where someone would be happy to make such a cake (and I would be more sure they would not spit in my batter for being forced to make the cake.!) :-) Edited to add - I tend to believe in letting the free market dictate these things more than the governmentFor further reference, there was a Kentucky T-shirt shop that refused to make a Gay Pride T-shirt. They were taken to court and won: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/28/christian-t-shirt-company-doesnt-have-to-print-gay-pride-festival-shirts-court-says/ Ishmael made a distinction between a company choosing not to print a T-shirt because of the sexual orientation of a potential customer and choosing not to print a T-shirt because of its message. It's fine not to bake a cake that has words you don't endorse. You don't have to keep in stock cake toppers that feature two grooms or two brides. However, if you run a business that makes wedding cakes and you live in Oregon, you don't get to refuse to make a wedding cake based on someones sex, orientation, race, color, religion, marital status, national origin or age. Again what is a "gay wedding cake" anyway? Can someone tell me if this is a straight or a gay cake: Edited July 6, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 For further reference, there was a Kentucky T-shirt shop that refused to make a Gay Pride T-shirt. They were taken to court and won: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/28/christian-t-shirt-company-doesnt-have-to-print-gay-pride-festival-shirts-court-says/ It's fine not to bake a cake that has words you don't endorse. You don't have to keep in stock cake toppers that feature two grooms or two brides. However, if you run a business that makes wedding cakes and you live in Oregon, you don't get to refuse to make a wedding cake based on someones sex, orientation, race, color, religion, marital status, national origin or age. Again what is a "gay wedding cake" anyway? Can someone tell me if this is a straight or a gay cake: Definatly gay. It has those little beady things dancing all over the cake. 1
Gray Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Definatly gay. It has those little beady things dancing all over the cake. This would be a straight wedding cake: 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 The only way you can help a country is to help individuals. A country is made of individuals.. True, so it means that Christianity is not helping most individuals, perhaps because they don't let Christianity to help them. Most Christians do not follow their own religion. I still do not see a causal connection. I am simply responding to PeterPear's claim that Christians are the only victims. The irony is that non-Christian and non-Muslim countries are more peaceful.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 This would be a straight wedding cake: The truck is too clean. A little mud icing on the truck.
Mystery Meat Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) True, so it means that Christianity is not helping most individuals, perhaps because they don't let Christianity to help them. Most Christians do not follow their own religion. I am simply responding to PeterPear's claim that Christians are the only victims. The irony is that non-Christian and non-Muslim countries are more peaceful. What if a straight couple went into a bakery owned and operated by a gay couple and asked for a cake with the following printed on it: "Marriage = One man, One woman" Should they have the right to refuse service? Edited July 6, 2015 by Mystery Meat
why me Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) because some religious employers don't want gays to support their SSM family. The sad reality is that the most peaceful nations in the world are not religious Christian. http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eglg45fglkm/peaceable-kingdoms/ Just look at the murder rate of Sweden, Vietnam, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Czech Rep, Finlandhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country The Global Peace Index indicated Iceland, New Zealand, Switzerland and Finland to be the most peaceful countries in the world. Netherlands is among the most peaceful nations, Netherlands was also the first country to legalize same sex marriage.http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/indexes/global-peace-indexYou need to go to the horses mouth and not rely on wiki or tainted websites. For example, Denmark leads europe with violence against women, with Finland in second place: http://yle.fi/uutiset/finland_is_eus_second_most_violent_country_for_women/7120601 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/violence-against-women-eu http://yle.fi/uutiset/paper_finlands_child_murder_rate_highest_in_the_west/5466450 http://yle.fi/uutiset/ksml_attempted_homicide_statistics_high_last_year/7744415 As a researcher, I always go to the horses mouth for facts and details. It seems that secular european countries do have problems with violence and with murder. So, how to explain your hypothesis? Edited July 6, 2015 by why me
Gray Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 What if a straight couple went into a bakery owned and operated by a gay couple and asked for a cake with the following printed on it: "Marriage = One man, One woman" Should they have the right to refuse service? I believe they can refuse to write any particular message they don't like, but they don't have a right to refuse to bake the cake. At least not based on the customer's religion. 1
why me Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) The oregon bakery 'sinned' against liberal pluralism and so they must pay the price. However, I do think that the outcome would be different if a jewish bakery, which is owned by survivors of nazi germany were to deny a cake with a swastika on it, they would get a free pass. And rightly so. However, jewish bakeries will also have to make cakes with swastikas on it. Can they deny the customer? And if so, what is the difference when considering the oregon bakery? Walmart refused to make a cake with a confederate flag on it but made a cake with the flag of Isis. Why no fine for walmart? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/walmart-refused-to-make-a-confederate-flag-cake-instead-made-isis-cake-10353937.html So, as we can see, the law is hypocritical and tends to support 'positive' pluralism. But should walmart be allowed to not make a cake with a confederate flag on it and not face a fine like the oregon bakery? Edited July 6, 2015 by why me 1
Mystery Meat Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 I believe they can refuse to write any particular message they don't like, but they don't have a right to refuse to bake the cake. At least not based on the customer's religion. So a customer goes into a bakery (gay owned) and says I want a cake for a anti-gay marriage rally/festival at the local protestant church. Does the gay owner have to make the cake?
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