BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 You're assuming it refers to higher ordinances, eg the second annointing, but that's not what it says. Yes, exaltation is a step beyond salvation which makes the D&C 132 statement even more troubling.I believe they would answer that this part of the verse: "and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment" Alludes to a "Second Anointing" requirement. 1
FormerLDS Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 It isn't that simple when it comes to Romans 4:5. The "works" being referred to are the "works of the Law" (ie the Law of Moses). The question was, what about non-Jews, who were not under the law of Moses (ie, not circumcised) ... can they be saved outside the Law? Yes. Abraham was not under the law of Moses, yet Abraham exercised great faith in God. IF God had commanded Abraham to live a certain law, Abraham would have done it. Even when asked to sacrifice his son Isaac, he would have done it. So, Abraham did not actually have to perform those works, or obey the law of Moses, but still Abraham was counted as righteous due to his true and obedient faith. Likewise, in the context of Paul, there were many non-Jews and the question was, do they have to live the law of Moses in order to be justified? Answer: No. They will be justified by the true faith, which leads to obedience, in the things that God asks them to do. -Stephen Stephen are you suggesting the "laws and ordinances of the gospel" mentioned in the third Article of Faith not referring to LDS obeying the ten commandments?
HappyJackWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I believe they would answer that this part of the verse: Alludes to a "Second Anointing" requirement.Yep- I get that, but the Holy spirit of promise is the power that seals every ordinance. So in a conversation about marriage being sealed by the holy spirit of promise it would indicate that the sealing took effect as a valid ordinance, not a requirement for an additional ordinance that had never been mentioned.
FormerLDS Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Yea, cheap grace. All you have to do is "blab it, and grab it," or "name it, and claim it." The Epistle of James is written specifically to deal with that nonsense. What you call "cheap" we call "free".
Calm Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Those who have been born again cannot be un-born friends Then I, since I have been born again, can rest assured in salvation through Christ as LDS, can I not? Edited June 10, 2015 by calmoriah 1
HappyJackWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Then I, since I have been born again, can rest assured in salvation through Christ as LDS, can I not?Ha! I've never had a born again agree to that when I've suggested it Without exception, they have always told me that I believe in a "different" Jesus who doesn't have the power to save, so NO, I am not saved. Interesting perspective I've run across on multiple occassions.
FormerLDS Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Then I, since I have been born again, can rest assured in salvation through Christ as LDS, can I not? Not going to tell you what you believe.
Zakuska Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) One could just as easily claim Latter-day Christians prefer "difficult believism" and call it "Eternal Insecurity". When I chose to believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ alone was sufficient for eternal life (highest and ONLY salvation), at that moment I began to think differently about doctrines I had been taught as truth as a Latter-day Saint Christian. I recall so many arguments with the OSAS crowd while out on splits and thinking and saying the same things noted here, but when you are born again you think differently because you have eternal life within you. Those who have been born again cannot be un-born friends, and there IS a logical, rational explanation for every verse presented here. So then what you are saying is the parable of the sower is a bunch of bull crap. Because it says that some receive the seed and "beleive for a while", they even "partake of the heavenly gift", and they even "begin to bring forth fruit" but later fall away. That one parable throws eternal security down the toilet. It flat out says they "believe" (ARE SAVED) then fall away (ARE NOT SAVED). PS> Read my Sig line to see what one of the Fathers of Protestantism and OSAS actually believed. Edited June 10, 2015 by Zakuska
Calm Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Not going to tell you what you believe.Good. But since I personally know I am born again, that must mean I am saved according to your doctrine, right?
Zakuska Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Stephen are you suggesting the "laws and ordinances of the gospel" mentioned in the third Article of Faith not referring to LDS obeying the ten commandments? Those same "laws and ordinances" are layed out in Hebrews 6 as the first principles of the Gospel of Christ or have you forgotten as one who needs milk what those first principles are ? You'll note, theres only one Church on earth that teaches these principles of the Gospel of Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Pauls time... and the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days. Edited June 10, 2015 by Zakuska
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 It is a common Protestant Doctrine. It is fallacious. In Hebrews 10, we read.... 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, In Phillipians 2:12, we read: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Does that sound like OSAS? OSAS is cool, if you think about...get saved and then you are free to do whatever you want. But, sadly, that is not how it works. Being a Believer is hard. And it should be.No takers on this?
Anakin7 Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) And remember FormerLDS [ And my LDS Brothers and Sisters In Christ Jesus ] True Faith Is A Law that must be Obeyed to Accept/Access/Activate True Grace - https://www.tgm.org/FaithIsALaw.html In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 10, 2015 by Anakin7
Robert F. Smith Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 What you call "cheap" we call "free". Dietrich Bonhoeffer said: Let the Christian rest content with his worldliness and with this renunciation of any higher standard than the world. He is living for the sake of the world rather than for the sake of grace. Let him be comforted and rest assured in his possession of this grace - for grace alone does everything. Instead of following Christ, let the Christian enjoy the consolations of his grace! That is what we mean by cheap grace, the grace which amounts to the justification of sin without the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sins departs. Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. That kind of perception and honesty forced the Nazis to kill Pastor Bonhoeffer. He would have made an excellent Mormon. Well, of course, he is one now . . . 1
Anakin7 Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Former a question to those who claim to be a real Christian - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm May you be Blessed by True Grace by way of True Faith. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 11, 2015 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 So then what you are saying is the parable of the sower is a bunch of bull crap. Because it says that some receive the seed and "beleive for a while", they even "partake of the heavenly gift", and they even "begin to bring forth fruit" but later fall away. That one parable throws eternal security down the toilet. It flat out says they "believe" (ARE SAVED) then fall away (ARE NOT SAVED). PS> Read my Sig line to see what one of the Fathers of Protestantism and OSAS actually believed. Where does the parable of the sower indicate those who believe but fall away are not saved? As in James 2, their faith died because there were no works, but that doesn't mean you're no saved. Man's faith is synonymous with his works. For example, you can see if someone has faith it will rain because they carry an umbrella (works). But you cannot say everyone who does not carry an umbrella does not believe it will rain. Their faith simply does not match their belief. The faith of Jesus Christ saves us, not man's faith (as seen in James 2).
Zakuska Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Where does the parable of the sower indicate those who believe but fall away are not saved? Matthew 13:12 indicates that the "salvation" they had been given would be taken away.Matthew 13:22 also indicates "unfruitfulness", no fruit no salvation. verse 23 contrasts an unsaved beleiver with a saved beleiver. OSAS is a heresy. Edited June 11, 2015 by Zakuska
FormerLDS Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Good. But since I personally know I am born again, that must mean I am saved according to your doctrine, right? Depends on what you mean by "born again". As an LDS Christian, I thought I was "born again" based upon LDS theology. Can't help but think the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 thought they too were "born again", only to discover their theology was incorrect even though they obviously had faith in Christ.
JLHPROF Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Depends on what you mean by "born again". As an LDS Christian, I thought I was "born again" based upon LDS theology. Can't help but think the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 thought they too were "born again", only to discover their theology was incorrect even though they obviously had faith in Christ. So Christ cares about what doctrines/theology we believe/practice and not just that we accept his gift of salvation?Sounds a little like works to me... 3
Rivers Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) So Christ cares about what doctrines/theology we believe/practice and not just that we accept his gift of salvation?Sounds a little like works to me...I think Pres. Uchforf explained the relationship between grace and works very well in his last conference address.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=engMost Christians who believe in eternal security probably agree that you can't be saved and then continue in sin. They would say that one who is truly saved or born again would not fall from grace. And that anybody who goes back to the dark side never was really saved in the first place.Grace is an enabling power that changes our nature. King Benjamin called it a "mighty change of heart." Paul called it becoming a "new creature." We obey not because we are trying to work out way to heaven. We obey because we love God and our nature and will is in tune with God. Edited June 11, 2015 by Rivers
JLHPROF Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 I think Pres. Uchforf explained the relationship between grace and works very well in his last conference address.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng Loved this talk. Too bad so many members that wish we were more like traditional Christians are reading it so incorrectly. Most Christians who believe in eternal security probably agree that you can't be saved and then continue in sin. They would say that one who is truly saved or born again would not fall from grace. And that anybody who goes back to the dark side never was really saved in the first place. Nothing like a little revisionist history to prove a false doctrine. Grace is an enabling power that changes our nature. King Benjamin called it a "mighty change of heart." Paul called it becoming a "new creature." We obey not because we are trying to work out way to heaven. We obey because we love God and our nature and will is in tune with God. Actually, it's both. We obey God because he requires it and we love him and want to do his will. The end result will be heaven after we complete working at God's will.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Yes. When it says, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It means you trust him completely. Not yourself, not the church, not anyone else. You trust in him alone for your salvation.I think you must mean these verses:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.(Acts 16)Please tell me: Is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ the one of several things we must do to be saved, or the only thing thing we must do to be saved?
Rivers Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 I think you must mean these verses:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.(Acts 16)Please tell me: Is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ the one of several things we must do to be saved, or the only thing thing we must do to be saved?"Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God."Pres. Uchdorf 1
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I think you must mean these verses: 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.(Acts 16)Please tell me: Is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ the one of several things we must do to be saved, or the only thing thing we must do to be saved? Understand what "believing" means. Completely trusting in him alone. In answer to your question, yes. That's it. However, a person who is "all in" trusting Christ, has a change of heart and is transformed by the Spirit of Christ living inside us.
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 "Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God."Pres. Uchdorf Correct.The penalty of sin is death. Nobody can become sinless except through Christ and therefore could not be resurrected (saved/salvation). They would have to remain in the grave for any sin that remained upon them. Fortunately Christ said none are lost but the Sons of Perdition. They don't get an eternal life but inherit the second death. Really very simple:Salvation -> Saved -> Redeemed -> Resurrected ->Continue eternal existencePerdition -> Perdus/Lost ->Damned ->Second Death ->the End So unless we are in danger of perdition we will ALL receive salvation. All the other debate and discussion relates to our eventual place among the saved.Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial, Ministering Angel, King, Exalted, etc. We don't "buy salvation". We work to become like God so we can be saved in exaltation, not so we can be rid of our sins. 1
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