Bobbieaware Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Correct.The penalty of sin is death. Nobody can become sinless except through Christ and therefore could not be resurrected (saved/salvation). They would have to remain in the grave for any sin that remained upon them.Fortunately Christ said none are lost but the Sons of Perdition. They don't get an eternal life but inherit the second death.Really very simple:Salvation -> Saved -> Redeemed -> Resurrected ->Continue eternal existencePerdition -> Perdus/Lost ->Damned ->Second Death ->the EndSo unless we are in danger of perdition we will ALL receive salvation. All the other debate and discussion relates to our eventual place among the saved.Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial, Ministering Angel, King, Exalted, etc. We don't "buy salvation". We work to become like God so we can be saved in exaltation, not so we can be rid of our sins.This is good. The only thing I would add is the following phrase, "We work BY MEANS OF THE POWER AND GIFTS OF GOD (another manifestation of grace) to become like God..."Edited to add; 25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10) Edited June 12, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 This is good. The only thing I would add is the following phrase, "We work BY MEANS OF THE POWER AND GIFTS OF GOD (another manifestation of grace) to become like God..." True. So Pres. Uchtdorf was exactly right. But that doesn't change the LDS position on works - not for salvation, but for the nature of our saved existence. 1
Bobbieaware Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 True. So Pres. Uchtdorf was exactly right. But that doesn't change the LDS position on works - not for salvation, but for the nature of our saved existence.Agreed. The Lord is at least as interested in our spiritual character development as he is in our receiving a remission of sins. 1
Sp0ckrates Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Understand what "believing" means. Completely trusting in him alone. In answer to your question, yes. That's it. However, a person who is "all in" trusting Christ, has a change of heart and is transformed by the Spirit of Christ living inside us.What about repentance? Isn't it also required to be forgiven?Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord...(Peter, Acts 3:19)Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.(Paul, Acts 20:21) Edited June 12, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 What about repentance? Isn't it also required to be forgiven? Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord...(Peter, Acts 3:19)Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.(Paul, Acts 20:21) Repentance, by it's very definition means to turn 180 degrees and go the opposite way one was going. The Bible describes us all as having sinned, and followed our own way. In order to believe and follow Christ, one has to repent, that is turn 180 degrees and leave our old way of life of trusting ourselves, and follow him. So, yes repentance is apart of the process.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Repentance, by it's very definition means to turn 180 degrees and go the opposite way one was going. The Bible describes us all as having sinned, and followed our own way. In order to believe and follow Christ, one has to repent, that is turn 180 degrees and leave our old way of life of trusting ourselves, and follow him. So, yes repentance is apart of the process.I completely agree a u-turn in one's life is essential. So is repentance the same thing as faith? Or are they different, but both necessary? Edited June 12, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
ERayR Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Understand what "believing" means. Completely trusting in him alone. In answer to your question, yes. That's it. However, a person who is "all in" trusting Christ, has a change of heart and is transformed by the Spirit of Christ living inside us. And why(in your estimation) can't this happen in an LDS setting?
Sp0ckrates Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 And why(in your estimation) can't this happen in an LDS setting?Hi, ERayR: I believe he is saying trust is the only thing necessary for exaltation. But ask him just to be sure.
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Hi, ERayR: I believe he is saying trust is the only thing necessary for exaltation. But ask him just to be sure. How do you define "exaltation" as differentiated from "salvation"?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) How do you define "exaltation" as differentiated from "salvation"?Mormon Exaltation = Protestant SalvationMore or less.My perspective:Saved is a condition all creation exists in, we choose whether to be exalted (Celestial Kingdom) or condemned (Lake of Fire, Kingdom of Devil) or to just remain saved. Edited June 12, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Mormon Exaltation = Protestant Salvation I don't think that's accurate. They don't believe in exaltation at all if the posts on this board are any indication.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I don't think that's accurate. They don't believe in exaltation at all if the posts on this board are any indication. "More or Less"Meaning they believe salvation is to receive everything God can offer the saved. We just believe He offers far more as part of that than they do. 1
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I completely agree a u-turn in one's life is essential. So is repentance the same thing as faith? Or are they different, but both necessary? They are not the same thing. However, they are connected , one can't repent if one doesn't believe in God (have faith). They are both necessary in that they are apart of the process. Everyone is different though. For some repentance is hard, but for others trusting Christ alone is hard.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Understand what "believing" means. Completely trusting in him alone. In answer to your question, yes. That's it. However, a person who is "all in" trusting Christ, has a change of heart and is transformed by the Spirit of Christ living inside us. And why(in your estimation) can't this happen in an LDS setting? Hi, ERayR: I believe he is saying trust is the only thing necessary for exaltation. But ask him just to be sure. Danielwoods is a firm advocate that LDS worship bars one from being saved. In his post he states what one must do to be saved. I was asking why his prerequisites could not occur in an LDS setting. Edited to reflect correction of my misconception. Edited June 12, 2015 by ERayR
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 And why(in your estimation) can't this happen in an LDS setting? I believe it can and does.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I believe it can and does. I stand corrected and glad to hear it.
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I stand corrected and glad to hear it. I have said in the past that I agree with the LDS about 60% of the time. Maybe 63.456 % even... ;-) 1
ERayR Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I have said in the past that I agree with the LDS about 60% of the time. Maybe 63.456 % even... ;-) As I do not follow all the threads I probably missed it. No foul, I hope.
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I don't think that's accurate. They don't believe in exaltation at all if the posts on this board are any indication. Correct. Exaltation is an LDS term that indicates different levels or kingdoms of heaven. We've had this discussion before, so we don't need to rehash it, but for a protestant this concept of different levels isn't derived from the biblical text.
danielwoods Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 As I do not follow all the threads I probably missed it. No foul, I hope. No worries.
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Correct. Exaltation is an LDS term that indicates different levels or kingdoms of heaven. We've had this discussion before, so we don't need to rehash it, but for a protestant this concept of different levels isn't derived from the biblical text. Not to "rehash it" but that isn't exactly what exaltation refers to either. Exaltation refers to the word "exalted", or in other words, put in a position to rule and reign, (or to be made to preside as a King and/or a God). And that IS in the Bible. The "different levels or kingdoms" are various conditions of salvation. Their presence in the Bible is rejected by protestants.Exaltation refers to future progress after receiving salvation. This requires a little more manipulation of Biblical texts in order for protestants to reject. Just trying to be clear. Edited June 12, 2015 by JLHPROF
Sp0ckrates Posted June 13, 2015 Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) How do you define "exaltation" as differentiated from "salvation"?Good question! To answer, I'd first say there is a plethora of beliefs in the Christian community outside the LDS Church, so I don't refer to Protestant beliefs. But let's say we're talking about a specific group, such as Fundamentalist Baptists, who say they believe in the fundamentals of the Christian faith. From what I understand from my time studying the Bible with them, they believe there are indeed degrees of reward in heaven. But to be with God is not what they consider a reward. To them, it is a free gift, and all true Chistians will be in God's presence forever.So to them, there are not three states or levels or areas of heaven, where only one is near God. (Am I understanding Mormon teaching correctly, here?) There is only one state or level or area of heaven, and all saved people--regardless of their reward or lack thereof--have full access to God for all eternity.So that is what I think the difference between exaltation and salvation is to some Christians. And this is why I think it is a good idea to ask a Christian what she believes before assuming her beliefs are the same as one's own.As far as my own beliefs, I'm not sure. For I don't really know what to believe. I'm still looking for the truth by learning why different Christians believe before I make up my own mind. Edited June 13, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 13, 2015 Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) They are not the same thing. However, they are connected , one can't repent if one doesn't believe in God (have faith). They are both necessary in that they are apart of the process. Everyone is different though. For some repentance is hard, but for others trusting Christ alone is hard.We agree, Daniel. So if someone were to ask you and me if trusting Christ is all they need to do to be saved, we should reply, "No, faith isn't enough! You also need to repent." Otherwise, the person might get the wrong idea. And it might help me understand why you believe it is impossible to lose your salvation after we talk more about repentance.But first, please let me ask you this: What should we think of these verses? Is Paul giving us a complete or incomplete explanation of salvation? Is he giving the full truth or merely part of the truth about how to be saved?8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.(Ephesians 2) Edited June 13, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
danielwoods Posted June 13, 2015 Posted June 13, 2015 We agree, Daniel. So if someone were to ask you and me if trusting Christ is all they need to do to be saved, we should reply, "No, faith isn't enough! You also need to repent." Otherwise, the person might get the wrong idea. And it might help me understand why you believe it is impossible to lose your salvation after we talk more about repentance.But first, please let me ask you this: What should we think of these verses? Is Paul giving us a complete or incomplete explanation of salvation? Is he giving the full truth or merely part of the truth about how to be saved? 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.(Ephesians 2) First, I don't want to mislead you, I'm not a believer in "once saved always saved." As for "all you need to do to be saved..." Repentance is apart of "having faith" in my opinion. As I stated, one can't repent without faith, and one can't get close to God without feeling the need to repent. The closer one gets to Christ, the more we realize how sin hurts him. Ephesians 2 is a complete summary of salvation. "By grace are you saved through faith" The error of many (not all) LDS is trusting that the prophet or the church somehow saves us. When the bible plainly tells us it's not of ourselves, it's a gift of God. He has done it all for us. We are his workmanship. "God works in us to will and to do..."
Okrahomer Posted June 13, 2015 Posted June 13, 2015 The error of many (not all) LDS is trusting that the prophet or the church somehow saves us.Seriously?!!!Where have you EVER heard (or read) an LDS person "trusting that the prophet or the church somehow saves us"? The fact that you have stated it, destroys ANY meager credibility you have as a "Christian" posting on this board. 1
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