St. Bookmark Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) my baptist friend came over to have a bible study.He told me about the once saved always saved doctrine. Has anyone else heard of this teaching? Edited June 9, 2015 by St. Bookmark
Meadowchik Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Sure, I grew up in Texas surrounded by Baptists. What was your impression of what your friend said? Did he explain it? Did he have a personal confirmation of it?
St. Bookmark Posted June 9, 2015 Author Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) I told him that I like the teaching since I believe Iam saved by grace.But if the teaching is not fully understood it could be dangerous. Example: if I say a little prayer then countinue to sin what does that mean?Romans 6 has the answersWe read roman 6:23 he did not have answer right then but will look into it, I also asked why are we show obedience to God? Edited June 9, 2015 by St. Bookmark
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Yes, I have heard of it. It seemed to be the teaching that I heard the most out in WV. They called it "Eternal Security". And they always sited John 10:29. It is essentially easy believeism. Though that was always denied. Say a prayer and you can never lose your salvation. "All you have to do is believe and accept Jesus in to your heart and you are saved". Edited June 9, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 To be fair there is a similar teaching couched within D&C 132... "26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." 2
The Nehor Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Yes, I have heard of it. It seemed to be the teaching that I heard the most out in WV. They called it "Eternal Security". And they always sited John 10:29. It is essentially easy believeism. Though that was always denied. Say a prayer and you can never lose your salvation. "All you have to do is believe and accept Jesus in to your heart and you are saved".It is a cross between gnosticism (know the prayer and be saved) and sorcery (say the magic incantation and achieve immortality). We have come full circle. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 To be fair there is a similar teaching couched within D&C 132... Yes, but the requirement for that one is MUCH greater.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Yes, but the requirement for that one is MUCH greater. I didn't say any different, thus I put "similar"...But it does appear to teach that upon reaching some level you can pretty much do everything except murder and you will inherit all blessings of the Celestial order.Maybe Rock and Connie fall in that category? (Sorry, I couldn't resist) Edited June 9, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr 1
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) I used to be a Fundamentalist Baptist when I was younger and an Evangelical up until several years ago. The Eternal Security doctrine (once saved, always saved) was taught in both circles. It centers around the idea that a person escapes hell and gains entrance into the presence of God in heaven--not because of any good thing she does, but because of what Christ did for her. It is the belief that putting faith (or trusting) in Christ's death on the cross as the payment for the price for her sin is what gets her into the presence of God, not obeying him. They say they have eternal security, because they believe that once they put faith in Christ, they can never lose their place at God's side, where they will immediately be upon death. In support of the doctrine, they might quote passages of the New Testament, like:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)Or8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2)The doctrine is problematic in that it seems to contradict the clear teaching of several passages of the New Testament, including:But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?(James 2:20)(They believe their faith alone saves them, but James appears to teach that faith apart from obeying God is not the kind of faith that will save anyone.)And37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Acts 2)(They believe that faith alone is all God requires to forgive their sins, but Peter seems to say repentance and baptism are also required.)And there are other such passages one might share and discuss with a person who believes that once she is saved by faith, she will always remain saved. Edited June 9, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
UtahTexan Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 It is a common Protestant Doctrine. It is fallacious. In Hebrews 10, we read.... 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, In Phillipians 2:12, we read: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Does that sound like OSAS? OSAS is cool, if you think about...get saved and then you are free to do whatever you want. But, sadly, that is not how it works. Being a Believer is hard. And it should be. 1
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) It is a common Protestant Doctrine. It is fallacious. In Hebrews 10, we read....26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,In Phillipians 2:12, we read:Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Does that sound like OSAS?OSAS is cool, if you think about...get saved and then you are free to do whatever you want.But, sadly, that is not how it works.Being a Believer is hard. And it should be.Those are other good Bible passages to ask Christians who believe they can never lose their salvation. To be fair, not all Protestants believe in Eternal Security. Or in the doctrine often paired with it--the idea that one is saved by God's grace alone through one's own faith alone.So it's a good idea to as a Protestant what she believes before starting a spiritual discussion. Edited June 9, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 It is a common Protestant Doctrine. It is fallacious. In Hebrews 10, we read.... 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, In Phillipians 2:12, we read: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Does that sound like OSAS? OSAS is cool, if you think about...get saved and then you are free to do whatever you want. But, sadly, that is not how it works. Being a Believer is hard. And it should be.These are great. I always go to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. It is pretty straight forward in the parable that more is required than a mere belief that Jesus is your savior.
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 These are great. I always go to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. It is pretty straight forward in the parable that more is required than a mere belief that Jesus is your savior. Christ himself taught that belief alone was not enough for salvation. He said that even the devils believe. And that only those who loved him were saved, and if we love him we will keep his commandments. 1
UtahTexan Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Jesus was asked how to have salvation. He never said, "just believe and all is fine." He said we must follow the Commandments. It follows, then, that not following them is pretty risky.... 3
danielwoods Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Christ himself taught that belief alone was not enough for salvation. He said that even the devils believe. And that only those who loved him were saved, and if we love him we will keep his commandments. It's important to understand that when the Bible talks about belief or faith, it never is talking about "mere belief" or simply intellectual accent. It's always talking about a trust or commitment to follow, hence "put your faith in Christ" is often stated.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 It's important to understand that when the Bible talks about belief or faith, it never is talking about "mere belief" or simply intellectual accent. It's always talking about a trust or commitment to follow, hence "put your faith in Christ" is often stated.Hi Daniel. You mean, it's not knowing what the truth is; it's putting confidence in that truth?
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 It's important to understand that when the Bible talks about belief or faith, it never is talking about "mere belief" or simply intellectual accent. It's always talking about a trust or commitment to follow, hence "put your faith in Christ" is often stated. Well, I certainly agree that faith in Christ is vital to salvation since it is his gift to offer. But just as we can grow our faith, so faith can be lost for many reasons (sin, doubt, etc).And if faith in Christ is required for salvation and faith can be lost, then OSAS doesn't make much sense.
UtahTexan Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Well, I certainly agree that faith in Christ is vital to salvation since it is his gift to offer. But just as we can grow our faith, so faith can be lost for many reasons (sin, doubt, etc).And if faith in Christ is required for salvation and faith can be lost, then OSAS doesn't make much sense. No, it doesn't. Let's say I am totally and wonderfully converted. I am saved. Several years later, I fall away and decide to rob banks. Am I still saved? After all, I was saved once.....so, if OSAS, then I can rob banks without any worries because I was saved once......
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 No, it doesn't. Let's say I am totally and wonderfully converted. I am saved. Several years later, I fall away and decide to rob banks. Am I still saved? After all, I was saved once.....so, if OSAS, then I can rob banks without any worries because I was saved once......Yes, you are still "saved", as all are "saved": 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucifiedfor the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and tosanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. 44 Wherefore, he saves all except them Will you be exalted? Not likely.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Yes, you are still "saved", as all are "saved":Will you be exalted? Not likely.Hi, Luvr. I'm learning about Mormonism. Please explain exalted.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Hi, Luvr. I'm learning about Mormonism. Please explain exalted. Basically...In Restoration (Mormon) teaching there are 3 "Levels" of the Kingdom of God. All whom Jesus created will be saved from spiritual death into one of the three levels, except those who have tasted personally of the glory of God and than denied it. Those in the "bottom" two "levels" are saved, but don't receive of a fullness of all that the Father has awaiting the righteous. Those in the highest "level" (or Celestial Kingdom) are exalted- meaning they inherit all the blessings of the Father and progress further in their light and knowledge. 2
danielwoods Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Hi Daniel. You mean, it's not knowing what the truth is; it's putting confidence in that truth? Trusting that the chair will hold you so that you sit in it, is the type of faith that the Bible uses.
danielwoods Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Well, I certainly agree that faith in Christ is vital to salvation since it is his gift to offer. But just as we can grow our faith, so faith can be lost for many reasons (sin, doubt, etc).And if faith in Christ is required for salvation and faith can be lost, then OSAS doesn't make much sense. We agree on that point too. I'm not a calvinist. However, my understanding of calvinism isn't as simple as you (or others) have described. It's more about God's sovereignty and he chooses some to be saved and some to be damned based on his foreknowledge of what people will choose. Their free will is still active, but so is God's sovereignty.
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 Basically...In Restoration (Mormon) teaching there are 3 "Levels" of the Kingdom of God. All whom Jesus created will be saved from spiritual death into one of the three levels, except those who have tasted personally of the glory of God and than denied it. Those in the "bottom" two "levels" are saved, but don't receive of a fullness of all that the Father has awaiting the righteous. Those in the highest "level" (or Celestial Kingdom) are exalted- meaning they inherit all the blessings of the Father and progress further in their light and knowledge. To be a little more precise, true exaltation is not being saved in the Celestial Kingdom, but in the top degree where you rule and reign over a kingdom and are considered a God because you will be permitted to create. Not everyone in the Celestial Kingdom is considered exalted.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 9, 2015 Posted June 9, 2015 To be a little more precise, true exaltation is not being saved in the Celestial Kingdom, but in the top degree where you rule and reign over a kingdom and are considered a God because you will be permitted to create. Not everyone in the Celestial Kingdom is considered exalted.OK I didn't include the finer details because, well, that is where differences begin to arise. That is why I said "Basically..." 1
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