Bsa Prez Calls For End To Ban On Gay Leaders

[ALarson]

I heard at one time, but I've forgotten the precise number.

 

As I recall, it was overwhelming. So much so that with the Church gone, BSA ceases to exist.

Wow, that's what I thought.  Thanks.

[smac97]

What percentage of scouts are from troops in the church, do you know?  I have to believe it would be a huge hit for them if the church removed itself.

 

According to Scouting.org, there are generally three categories of chartering organizations: "faith-based" groups which charter 71.5% of BSA troops, civic organizations (21.3%) and educational organizations (7.2%).  The LDS Church is by far the largest chartering organization, with 37,933 units (37% of the units) and 437,169 scouts (18% of the scouts).

 

So yeah, losing 37% of its chartered units (and all of the sponsored funding coming from them), and nearly 1 out of every 5 scouts would be a huge hit.  And a very sad day for the Church from a sociological perspective.  But it may become a necessary day.

 

And frankly, I'm not sure the LDS Church would be the only religious group to sever ties with the BSA over this issue.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited May 21, 2015 by smac97

[Scott Lloyd]

So it will be the gay rights movement that kills Scouting. But the Church, having ended its affiliation, will get the blame.

 

And so it goes.

[ALarson]

According to Scouting.org, there are generally three categories of chartering organizations: "faith-based" groups which charter 71.5% of BSA troops, civic organizations (21.3%) and educational organizations (7.2%).  The LDS Church is by far the largest chartering organization, with 37,933 units (37% of the units) and 437,169 scouts (18% of the scouts).

 

So yeah, losing 37% of its chartered units (and all of the sponsored funding coming from them), and nearly 1 out of every 5 scouts would be a huge hit.  And a very sad day for the Church from a sociological perspective.  But it may become a necessary day.

 

And frankly, I'm not sure the LDS Church would be the only religious group to sever ties with the BSA over this issue.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Thanks for the stats, Smac.

[Rock_N_Roll]

I agree with your prediction. While Gates is paying lip service to "religious freedom," now, that won't last long. Eventually, the Church will be obliged to end its BSA affiliation and formulate its own activity program for youth. And it will do it far more cost-effectively, not having to require its membership to help pay for, among other things, the corporate jets and other perqs of executives such as Gates.

 

As an Eagle Scout, with 3 brothers that were Eagle Scouts, and having spent more than 7 years as a leader in the YM program...I completely

agree with this.  Get the LDS out of the BSA. 

[tonie]

I don't share all of Reisman's views, but the documentation she has compiled about the subject matter remains disturbing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Do you think accurately depicts the quotes?

"When these folks are saying, in print, that "we have to behave in a certain way vis-à-vis young people," and that this "means we have to proselytize ... Aggressively so," I am going to take them at their word. "

What does proselytize in this context mean to you?

Edited May 21, 2015 by tonie

[smac97]

Do you think accurately depicts the quotes?

 

I have not seen any indication that she took these statements out of context.  Have you read the article?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[tonie]

I have not seen any indication that she took these statements out of context.  Have you read the article?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

I read enough to realize there might be some mischaracteration.

[smac97]

I read enough to realize there might be some mischaracteration.

 

I'll concede that possibility.  But the content, the verbatim quotes, are pretty darn disturbing.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[tonie]

smac

"When these folks are saying, in print, that "we have to behave in a certain way vis-à-vis young people," and that this "means we have to proselytize ... Aggressively so," I am going to take them at their word. "

What does proselytize in this context mean to you?

[omni]

It would be incredibly sad if the church ended its affiliation with the BSA over this. This would be a perfect chance for the church to show how serious it is about religious freedom by supporting the BSA in allowing churches the opprotunity to choose.

[Mystery Meat]

Omni, what you talking about has nothing to do with religion freedom.

[omni]

Omni, what you talking about has nothing to do with religion freedom.

Not according to Gates as quoted in the OP.

[tonie]

So it will be the gay rights movement that kills Scouting. But the Church, having ended its affiliation, will get the blame.

And so it goes.

This is absurd, if Local Units get to decide.

The Church leaving Scouts when the Church can choose its heterosexual Scout Leaders, just because the Lutherians choose a gay Scout Master; is not anyones fault but those that choose to leave.

[strappinglad]

I wonder of the Church has ever done a cost-benefit analysis for the Scouting program. Where I am we use very little of the national resources and fund all activities in house. Even the " insurance " program is questionable.  If the Church were to separate from   BSA  it would lose the national recognition that Scouting currently provides but not much else.

[carbon dioxide]

My problem with scouting and the LDS Church is when the Church makes it a calling for members to be a part of scouting.  I have never liked scouting yet I was called to be a cub scout leader.  I was not thrilled about it and did not give it my all.  But I gave it more than I would have for boy scouts.  The Church should stop calling members to fill positions and let the members volunteer instead.  Then the people who want to be involved with scouting will be a part of the troop and people like me will not be.

 

Anyway the gay issue is not that big a deal to me.  There is little chance any openly gay person is going to be involved in my son troop.  What really has made me angry is the slow encroachment of silly social engineering rules in scouting like the recent banning of water guns because they are mean or not nice.  I do believe that soon scouting will start indoctrinating scouts that homosexuality is ok and normal and all that.  Give a "progressive" an inch and they will eventually run over you.  So until the boy scouts reverses this ban, I will not give one more of my hard earned dollar to an organization that is scared of water guns.

[carbon dioxide]

The girl scouts recently changed their rules to allow boys to join them under the label of "transgendered" girls.  Might as well just merge the boy and girl scouts. 

[Mystery Meat]

Not according to Gates as quoted in the OP.

If gates thinks the church bowing out of scouting is somehow opposed to the idea of religious liberty he is an idiot.

[The Nehor]

FINALLY, LET ME ADDRESS MEMBERSHIP POLICY.

 

I TOLD YOU A YEAR AGO THAT I WOULD OPPOSE RE-OPENING THIS ISSUE DURING MY TWO-YEAR TERM AS PRESIDENT OF THE BSA. I HAD HOPED THEN FOR A RESPITE DURING WHICH WE COULD FOCUS ON HEALING OUR DIVISIONS FROM THE 2013 DECISION, IMPROVING OUR PROGRAM, STRENGTHENING OUR FINANCES AND ENDING OUR DECLINE IN MEMBERSHIP.

 

HOWEVER, EVENTS DURING THE PAST YEAR HAVE CONFRONTED US WITH URGENT CHALLENGES I DID NOT FORESEE AND WHICH WE CANNOT IGNORE. WE CANNOT IGNORE GROWING INTERNAL CHALLENGES TO OUR CURRENT MEMBERSHIP POLICY, FROM SOME COUNCILS – LIKE THE GREATER NEW YORK COUNCIL, THE DENVER AREA COUNCIL, AND OTHERS – IN OPEN DEFIANCE OF THE POLICY, TO MORE AND MORE COUNCILS TAKING A POSITION 

IN THEIR MISSION STATEMENTS AND PUBLIC DOCUMENTS CONTRARY TO NATIONAL POLICY.

 

NOR CAN WE IGNORE THE SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND JURIDICIAL CHANGES TAKING PLACE IN OUR COUNTRY – CHANGES TAKING PLACE AT A PACE OVER THIS PAST YEAR NO ONE ANTICIPATED. I REMIND YOU OF THE RECENT DEBATES WE HAVE SEEN IN PLACES LIKE INDIANA AND ARKANSAS OVER DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION, NOT TO MENTION THE IMPENDING U.S. SUPREME COURT DECISION THIS SUMMER ON GAY MARRIAGE.

I AM NOT ASKING THE NATIONAL BOARD FOR ANY ACTION TO CHANGE OUR CURRENT POLICY AT THIS MEETING. BUT I MUST SPEAK AS PLAINLY AND BLUNTLY TO YOU AS I SPOKE TO PRESIDENTS WHEN I WAS DIRECTOR OF CIA AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE. WE MUST DEAL WITH THE WORLD AS IT IS, NOT AS WE MIGHT WISH IT TO BE. THE STATUS QUO IN OUR MOVEMENT’S MEMBERSHIP STANDARDS CANNOT BE SUSTAINED.

 

WE CAN EXPECT MORE COUNCILS TO OPENLY CHALLENGE THE CURRENT POLICY. WHILE TECHNICALLY WE HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO REVOKE THEIR CHARTERS, SUCH AN ACTION WOULD DENY THE LIFELONG BENEFITS OF SCOUTING TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BOYS AND YOUNG MEN TODAY AND VASTLY MORE IN THE FUTURE. I WILL NOT TAKE THAT PATH.

 

MOREOVER, DOZENS OF STATES – FROM NEW YORK TO UTAH – ARE PASSING LAWS THAT PROTECT EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION. THUS, BETWEEN INTERNAL CHALLENGES AND POTENTIAL LEGAL CONFLICTS, THE BSA FINDS ITSELF IN AN UNSUSTAINABLE POSITION. A POSITION THAT MAKES US VULNERABLE TO THE POSSIBILITY THE COURTS SIMPLY WILL ORDER US AT SOME POINT TO CHANGE OUR MEMBERSHIP POLICY. WE 15

MUST ALL UNDERSTAND THAT THIS PROBABLY WILL HAPPEN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

 

IN 2010, A FEDERAL DISTRICT JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA OVERTURNED THE MILITARY’S DON’T ASK, DON’T TELL LAW AND THE REVERSAL WAS APPLIED NATIONWIDE IMMEDIATELY. ONLY A STAY GRANTED BY THE APPEALS COURT – GRANTED, I BELIEVE, MAINLY BECAUSE WE WERE IN THE PROCESS OF CHANGING THE LAW – PREVENTED DRAMATIC DISRUPTION IN THE ARMED FORCES.

 

WE CANNOT PREDICT IF OR WHEN THIS MIGHT HAPPEN TO US, BUT I PERSONALLY BELIEVE OUR LEGAL DEFENSES HAVE WEAKENED SINCE THE DALE CASE. AND IF WE WAIT FOR THE COURTS TO ACT, WE COULD END UP WITH A BROAD RULING THAT COULD FORBID ANY KIND OF MEMBERSHIP STANDARD, INCLUDING OUR FOUNDATIONAL BELIEF IN OUR DUTY TO GOD AND OUR FOCUS ON SERVING THE SPECIFIC NEEDS OF BOYS. WAITING FOR THE COURTS IS A GAMBLE WITH HUGE STAKES.

 

ALTERNATIVELY, WE CAN MOVE AT SOME FUTURE DATE – BUT SOONER RATHER THAN LATER – TO SEIZE CONTROL OF OUR OWN FUTURE, SET OUR OWN COURSE AND CHANGE OUR POLICY IN ORDER TO ALLOW CHARTER PARTNERS – UNIT SPONSORING ORGANIZATIONS – TO DETERMINE THE STANDARDS FOR THEIR SCOUT LEADERS. SUCH AN APPROACH WOULD ALLOW ALL CHURCHES, WHICH SPONSOR SOME 70% OF OUR SCOUT UNITS, TO ESTABLISH LEADERSHIP STANDARDS CONSISTENT WITH THEIR FAITH. WE MUST, AT ALL COSTS, PRESERVE THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM OF OUR CHURCH PARTNERS TO DO THIS.

 

OUR OATH CALLS UPON US TO DO OUR DUTY TO GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. THE COUNTRY IS CHANGING AND WE ARE INCREASINGLY AT ODDS WITH THE LEGAL LANDSCAPE AT BOTH THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVELS. AND, AS A MOVEMENT, WE FIND OURSELVES WITH A POLICY MORE THAN A FEW OF OUR CHURCH SPONSORS REJECT – THUS PLACING SCOUTING BETWEEN A BOY AND HIS CHURCH.

 

THE CHALLENGES ARE BEFORE US NOW. THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, THE NATIONAL EXECUTIVE BOARD AND OUR LEGAL COUNSEL WILL WORK TO DETERMINE OUR RESPONSES AND OUR BEST STRATEGY. WE WANT AND VALUE YOUR THOUGHTS ON ALL THIS, RECOGNIZING THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING OUR CORE VALUES.

 

THE ONE THING WE CANNOT DO IS PUT OUR HEADS IN THE SAND AND PRETEND THIS CHALLENGE WILL GO AWAY OR ABATE. QUITE THE OPPOSITE IS HAPPENING.

 

I KNOW MY REMARKS ON THIS SUBJECT UNSETTLE MANY OF YOU. SOME OF YOU MIGHT BE ANGRY THAT I RAISE THIS SUBJECT AND WITH WHAT I HAVE SAID. BUT THIS MOVEMENT SHAPED MY LIFE AND MY ONLY PURPOSE – MY ONLY REASON FOR ASSUMING THIS LEADERSHIP ROLE – IS TO PRESERVE THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA IN RECOGNITION OF ALL IT HAS DONE FOR THIS COUNTRY, AND ALL IT CAN AND MUST DO IN THE FUTURE. SCOUTING IS NEEDED IN THIS COUNTRY NOW MORE THAN EVER.

 

I ASSURE YOU THAT I HAVE NO HIDDEN AGENDA. I WANT ONLY TO APPRISE YOU OF THE NEW REALITY I SEE: THAT BOTH INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL EVENTS AND PRESSURES OVER THE PAST YEAR AND LOOKING TO THE FUTURE WILL REQUIRE ACTION AT SOME POINT. FOR NOW, I ASK THAT, IN THE DAYS AND MONTHS AHEAD, EVERYONE HERE REFLECT AND PRAY ON OUR PATH FORWARD. WE CAN ACT ON OUR OWN OR WE CAN BE FORCED TO ACT BUT, EITHER WAY, I SUSPECT WE DON’T HAVE A LOT OF TIME.

 

FOR ME, I SUPPORT A POLICY THAT ACCEPTS AND RESPECTS OUR DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND BELIEFS, ALLOWS RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS – BASED ON FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTION OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM – TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN STANDARDS FOR ADULT LEADERS, AND PRESERVES THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA NOW AND FOREVER. I TRULY FEAR THAT ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE WILL BE THE END OF US AS A NATIONAL MOVEMENT.

 

This man needs to be fired. Some may say for this change in direction and I sympathize with that view but mostly for the egregious use of all caps. Why is he yelling at me?

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't want us out of bsa. I love scouting and the positive influence it's had on me and my family

Scouting is indeed a nice experience for boys, and I can recall with great fondness my years as a boy scout and explorer scout with a wonderful scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster -- but not an LDS troop or post.

 

However, scouting can be done outside the BSA.  Call them what you will, Young Pioneers, Campfire Boys, etc., and provide them with the same experiences.  Opening the floodgates of leadership to avowedly gay men would invite disaster, first because youth organizations are very attractive to  pedophiles, and we already have too many instances of scout leaders who are secretly gay pedophiles.  Any ward or stake going through the experience of a dozen boys having been sexually abused is not simply traumatic for the victims, but also for the ward and stake.  Look what happened to the Roman Catholic priesthood when numerous gay men found it the perfect vocation in which to obtain young victims.  Seminaries became gay havens.  A dozen or more archdioceses went bankrupt during the ensuing scandals, parishes being closed right and left.  The LDS Church needs vigilance and high standards, same as every other church.

[Robert F. Smith]

.....................................................................  

Our youth will have interact with opening gay adults quite often in their lives. Gays are found in the ranks of the teachers, sports coaches, fellow employees, and so forth. We send of 18-year old boys as missionaries to the four corners of the world, and yet we can't allow a 17-year to old to be taught environmental science by an openly gay counselor? Please. 

................................................................................

It is not so much the 17-year-old boy we have to worry about, but rather the impressionable 12-year-old scout faced with sexual abuse by a trusted scout leader, not to mention the cub scouts.  We already have broad experience with what pedophiles can do, and it usually takes a while before they are discovered and removed from scouting.  We do not need to increase the likelihood of that sort of problem by inviting the fox into the hen-house.

[strappinglad]

The whole sexual orientation business goes into a gravel crusher when pedophilia raises its filthy head. Gay, straight. both, neither , gets all mushed together with the desire for power over the young. I am told rape is about power not sex. I  read articles that stress that homosexuals are no more inclined to pedophilia than heterosexuals. What to think, what to think !  A friend of  mine had a suggested solution that involved an anvil and a ball peen hammer. There are times...

[Tacenda]

The whole sexual orientation business goes into a gravel crusher when pedophilia raises its filthy head. Gay, straight. both, neither , gets all mushed together with the desire for power over the young. I am told rape is about power not sex. I read articles that stress that homosexuals are no more inclined to pedophilia than heterosexuals. What to think, what to think ! A friend of mine had a suggested solution that involved an anvil and a ball peen hammer. There are times...

Thank you for posting this.

[janderich]

As I have read and considered this new wrinkle in the BSA/LGBT saga it strikes me on a rather personal level having served as a Unit Commissioner for three years and currently serving as the Varsity Coach. My thoughts run along the following lines...

 

Gates' comments still allow the LDS church freedom to set its own standards regarding leaders of the youth. Perhaps as others have suggested this will eventually lead us to be forced into permitting LGBT leaders but perhaps not. If that time ever comes I am fairly certain it will spell an end to the LDS/BSA relationship, but the time is not yet! 

 

This leads to my major concern, that news such as this will lead LDS memebers to further disassociate from the BSA organization. What does this disassociation look like? It is not an outright separation. Instead it is families who put sports and work above mutual nights (most of which are scout nights). Parents serving as leaders but simply doing the very minimum and showing very little forethought when planning weekly activities, campouts, etc. Showing almost zero enthusiasm for the program (which spills over onto the youth). Adding practically no help on a district or council level.

 

This extremely minimal "support" is much more detrimental then this new potential change in policy ever could be. The worst thing we can do is not engage our youth. Sports and work are not a good substitute for an active vibrant YM organization and the losers in all this are our children.  

[Tacenda]

As I have read and considered this new wrinkle in the BSA/LGBT saga it strikes me on a rather personal level having served as a Unit Commissioner for three years and currently serving as the Varsity Coach. My thoughts run along the following lines...

Gates' comments still allow the LDS church freedom to set its own standards regarding leaders of the youth. Perhaps as others have suggested this will eventually lead us to be forced into permitting LGBT leaders but perhaps not. If that time ever comes I am fairly certain it will spell an end to the LDS/BSA relationship, but the time is not yet!

This leads to my major concern, that news such as this will lead LDS memebers to further disassociate from the BSA organization. What does this disassociation look like? It is not an outright separation. Instead it is families who put sports and work above mutual nights (most of which are scout nights). Parents serving as leaders but simply doing the very minimum and showing very little forethought when planning weekly activities, campouts, etc. Showing almost zero enthusiasm for the program (which spills over onto the youth). Adding practically no help on a district or council level.

This extremely minimal "support" is much more detrimental then this new potential change in policy ever could be. The worst thing we can do is not engage our youth. Sports and work are not a good substitute for an active vibrant YM organization and the losers in all this are our children.

I'm glad my sons and husband were active in Scouts, but know that I'm an example of your theory. I soon didn't get all that upset at my sons not getting their Eagles, they did however help a lot of boys who did, through service projects. It became sour for me after hearing what the president of BSA's income was. And the high price of FOS (Friends of Scouting). We contributed but we also made sure to contribute to our ward by not turning in our receipts (my husband was a scout leader). But now that our sons aged out of scouts, we don't give to FOS. So I do think a lot of people won't donate to FOS now too.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Tacenda