Bsa Prez Calls For End To Ban On Gay Leaders

[Robert F. Smith]

Here is something from recent news, and by no means unusual:

 

"Man charged in child porn case moving away from public park," Daily Herald (Illinois), May 21, 2015, online at http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150521/news/150529690/ .

Jones was an active member and leader of several youth organizations, including a suburban Mormon Church youth group and a Boy Scouts group, authorities said. None of the pornographic photos are of children in any of those groups, officials said.

[Tacenda]

Here is something from recent news, and by no means unusual:

 

"Man charged in child porn case moving away from public park," Daily Herald (Illinois), May 21, 2015, online at http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150521/news/150529690/ .

Jones was an active member and leader of several youth organizations, including a suburban Mormon Church youth group and a Boy Scouts group, authorities said. None of the pornographic photos are of children in any of those groups, officials said.

Was he gay?

[Scott Lloyd]

You clearly have not read much (if any) of Zach Wahl's thoughts on the matter. I would encourage you to do so--I think most woukd be pleasantly surprised at his thoughtful, balanced, and non-accusatory pproach to LGBT issues (incidently, he's not gay--he is a staight young man who was raised by two moms).

Can you save me some time and trouble by linking to or citing anything from him that would assure me he won't continue to push for inclusion of sexually active gay males in all Scouting units, including those sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ? Because his quoted remarks I linked to don't reflect that. And his sexual orientation doesn't concern me nearly so much as his political ideology.

[readstoomuch]

I found out that a Scout that I served in leadership camps with was a sexual predator, mostly at scout camps.  I never knew this while were running the Scout Camp.  He was quite a funny guy at the time.  A few years back he became the subject of a big lawsuit against the Scout Council and it was settled out of court.  Yes, he was LDS.

 

There is the seedy side of camps.  Drug usage, fights, pornography to name a few.  Despite seeing these and other things, camp was a great experience that summer.

[rockpond]

Since many of them were known homosexuals in the actively homosexual seminaries in which they were trained, and since many were known as homosexuals to their fellow priests (and to their bishops) in their assigned dioceses, and since many of them were carefully moved to new parishes or dioceses after discovery of their sexual molestation of children, the lawsuits brought against the Roman Catholic Church were often very successful. There are, as I have pointed out, thousands of such priests which have been discovered to be child molesters. What percentage were known to the ordinary, lay parishoners? Probably very few. But the percentage known to their fellow priests was likely quite high.

The shame of it is that the vast majority of priests, monks, and nuns are very sincere, but did not make waves within their church when it counted. They turned a blind eye to the problem until it was too late. Often their bishops simply transferred the predators to new areas.

So none of those you've described fit the definition of "open and avowed homosexual" which is what the BSA policy change would likely allow.

[rockpond]

Here is something from recent news, and by no means unusual:

"Man charged in child porn case moving away from public park," Daily Herald (Illinois), May 21, 2015, online at http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150521/news/150529690/ .

Jones was an active member and leader of several youth organizations, including a suburban Mormon Church youth group and a Boy Scouts group, authorities said. None of the pornographic photos are of children in any of those groups, officials said.

...and BSA policy allowed him in.

[Robert F. Smith]

Was he gay?

I don't know, Tacenda.  Just saw this.  As he is prosecuted, we may learn more on the nature of the porn involved and of any other problems he may have had.

[Robert F. Smith]

I found out that a Scout that I served in leadership camps with was a sexual predator, mostly at scout camps.  I never knew this while were running the Scout Camp.  He was quite a funny guy at the time.  A few years back he became the subject of a big lawsuit against the Scout Council and it was settled out of court.  Yes, he was LDS.

 

There is the seedy side of camps.  Drug usage, fights, pornography to name a few.  Despite seeing these and other things, camp was a great experience that summer.

Many years ago, a friend of mine who had to take ecclesiastical action within the LDS Church in the matter, told me of a summer in which three adult lesbian camp counselors in Utah had been seducing the teenage girls in their camps.  Predation is always a threat, and, as famous lesbian Tammy Bruce declared:

 

A majority of gays, I believe, have their first sexual experience as a minor with a gay adult, and almost every gay and lesbian knows that’s true.  We need to be willing to address that.¹

 

And, as Orson Scott Card observed of the LDS homosexual dilemma, “for most of them their highest allegiance was to their membership in the community that gave them access to sex,” i.e., the gay community.²

 

¹  Bruce, a long-time feminist, lesbian, and former leader within the National Organization for Women (NOW), said this to California Congressman David Dreier (Republican) – quoted by Fred ****ey in the Los Angeles Times Magazine, June 2, 2002, p. 18 (this is backed up by the research of Masters & Johnson, Human Sexual Inadequacy [1970]); the Left is unable to adequately address this problem and now considers Bruce as a politically incorrect persona non grata: Tammy Bruce, The New Thought Police: Inside the Left’s Assault on Free Speech and Free Minds (2001); Bruce, The Death of Right and Wrong: Exposing the Left’s Assault on Our Cultures and Values (2003).

 

²  Card, “The Hypocrites of Homosexuality,” Sunstone, 14/1 #75 (Feb 1990):44, reprinted in  A Storyteller in Zion (1993), 182-187.

[thesometimesaint]

A majority of hetero's, I believe, have their first sexual experience as a minor with a hetero adult, and almost every hetero knows that’s true.  We need to be willing to address that.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_intercourse

[Mystery Meat]

 

A majority of hetero's, I believe, have their first sexual experience as a minor with a hetero adult, and almost every hetero knows that’s true.  We need to be willing to address that.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_intercourse

 

 

CFR.

 

I looked at the Wikipedia Article sourced. It does not support your assertion.

[rongo]

 

A majority of hetero's, I believe, have their first sexual experience as a minor with a hetero adult, and almost every hetero knows that’s true.  We need to be willing to address that.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_intercourse

 

I'll double up on the CFR for that one. A majority of heteros, I believe, have their first sexual experience as a minor with another minor. I don't think anyone can prove that a majority (at least 50%) of almost everyone had their first sexual experience as a minor with an adult o the opposite sex.

 

I can say that most adults I have worked with as a bishop who have sexual addictions were introduced to pornography or sexual activity when they were very young (around 11 or so). This goes for both homo- and hetero-. One gay member was molested by his gay 6th grade teacher, and another by his mother when he was 11 (his father molested his sisters --- a very messed up family. He told me that the thought of women disgusted him). 

Edited May 24, 2015 by rongo

[Mystery Meat]

 

A majority of hetero's, I believe, have their first sexual experience as a minor with a hetero adult, and almost every hetero knows that’s true.  We need to be willing to address that.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_intercourse

 

 

Still waiting for the support. I suspect, because you are a reasonable person, that you will either provide it or withdraw the assertion.

[thesometimesaint]

Sorry I was away from my PC for half the day. I'll answer your CFR a little later as it is past midnight here.

[mikegriffith1]

Gates' argument is another example of what you can get when your worldview is functionally or avowedly godless.

 

If I had the chance, I would like to ask Gates how a gay Boy Scout leader could genuinely take the Scout oath, which includes a promise to be "morally clean." You can't be morally clean if you're involved in a sexual relationship with a person of the same gender. Gates' answer would likely be that the "traditional understanding" of "morally clean" needs to be revised, or essentially ignored.

 

And I bet Gates would get very uncomfortable in a hurry if he were asked, "What do you think God wants the Boy Scouts to do? Don't you think he wants them to maintain their traditional, Bible-based view of 'morally clean'?"

 

Why don't gays just go form their own young men's association? Why do they try to force groups like the Boy Scouts to abandon long-standing values to suit the gay agenda?  Why don't gays just start their own young men's group, one that would be open to any boy or adult who would not openly oppose the gay agenda?

[omni]

Gates' argument is another example of what you can get when your worldview is functionally or avowedly godless.

If I had the chance, I would like to ask Gates how a gay Boy Scout leader could genuinely take the Scout oath, which includes a promise to be "morally clean." You can't be morally clean if you're involved in a sexual relationship with a person of the same gender. Gates' answer would likely be that the "traditional understanding" of "morally clean" needs to be revised, or essentially ignored.

And I bet Gates would get very uncomfortable in a hurry if he were asked, "What do you think God wants the Boy Scouts to do? Don't you think he wants them to maintain their traditional, Bible-based view of 'morally clean'?"

Will a scoutmaster who is single and engaging in a sexual relationship with his girlfriend be removed from his position? I'm not asking specifically about an LDS sponsored troop, but more generally, is it an actual rule like the ban on gay scout leaders? Edited May 24, 2015 by omni

[tonie]

mikegriffith1

How does the Boy Scouts define the various aspects of the Scout Oath?

Why do you presume that the Boy Scouts view on anything is based solely on your religious views, to the exclusion of Jews, Hindus, or Muslims?

Edited May 24, 2015 by tonie

[thesometimesaint]

Still waiting for the support. I suspect, because you are a reasonable person, that you will either provide it or withdraw the assertion.

 

Finally got some sleep.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

[Mystery Meat]

Finally got some sleep.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

 

This is such a cop out. Again, you assert that most hetero minors have their first sexual experience with a hetero adult. This is the second link you have provided that says nothing of your assertion. Either provide the support or withdraw. Those are the board rules. As a compromise, I will withdraw my CFR if you will disclose why you made the assertion that you did.

[Stargazer]

Gates' argument is another example of what you can get when your worldview is functionally or avowedly godless.

 

If I had the chance, I would like to ask Gates how a gay Boy Scout leader could genuinely take the Scout oath, which includes a promise to be "morally clean." You can't be morally clean if you're involved in a sexual relationship with a person of the same gender. Gates' answer would likely be that the "traditional understanding" of "morally clean" needs to be revised, or essentially ignored.

 

And I bet Gates would get very uncomfortable in a hurry if he were asked, "What do you think God wants the Boy Scouts to do? Don't you think he wants them to maintain their traditional, Bible-based view of 'morally clean'?"

 

Why don't gays just go form their own young men's association? Why do they try to force groups like the Boy Scouts to abandon long-standing values to suit the gay agenda?  Why don't gays just start their own young men's group, one that would be open to any boy or adult who would not openly oppose the gay agenda?

 

This is essentially what I was saying in my earlier post, except that I was not giving the nod to a "Bible-based view of 'morally clean'", but a societal based one.

 

Society in the USA, while based on Judaeo-Christian values, has been making a shift of late.  In fact, considering Ireland's recent national vote approving gay marriage, Western Civilization itself is headed in this direction.  When the shift is complete, homosexuality itself will no longer be considered "immoral", any more than heterosexuals shacking up long term, or hooking up for shorter gigs, are considered immoral now.

 

And the BSA is not a church. 

[thesometimesaint]

This is such a cop out. Again, you assert that most hetero minors have their first sexual experience with a hetero adult. This is the second link you have provided that says nothing of your assertion. Either provide the support or withdraw. Those are the board rules. As a compromise, I will withdraw my CFR if you will disclose why you made the assertion that you did.

 

So nearly 6000 years of recorded history going from no restrictions on sexual intercourse based on age to age of menses to in our country situational after about 14 years old says nothing to you? whatever floats your boat.

 

Being a psychiatric social worker, now retired, it is a good idea to know about the problems my clients faced. Just so you know I'm not excusing the behavior in 21st Century America.

[Mystery Meat]

So nearly 6000 years of recorded history going from no restrictions on sexual intercourse based on age to age of menses to in our country situational after about 14 years old says nothing to you? whatever floats your boat.

 

Being a psychiatric social worker, now retired, it is a good idea to know about the problems my clients faced. Just so you know I'm not excusing the behavior in 21st Century America.

 

No, it does not. You said most hetero minors have their first sexual experience with hetero adults. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, you have provided supports your assertion. Retract, support or be reported. Your call.

[Tacenda]

No, it does not. You said most hetero minors have their first sexual experience with hetero adults. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, you have provided supports your assertion. Retract, support or be reported. Your call.

My nephew on my husband's side was abused at a young age during a sleepover by an exchange student. He is openly gay now, but don't know if the boy who abused him was gay or hetero. His aunt on his mother's side is gay. So his homosexuality could be from his genes or from the abuse or neither. But every time I read comments about this, I finally had to post.

[thesometimesaint]

No, it does not. You said most hetero minors have their first sexual experience with hetero adults. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, you have provided supports your assertion. Retract, support or be reported. Your call.

 

First the distinction between adults and children in western culture is a largely a leftover of the Victorian Age. Hardly the 6000 years of recorded history.

I've satisfied your CFR you just don't like what it said.

[Mystery Meat]

First the distinction between adults and children in western culture is a largely a leftover of the Victorian Age. Hardly the 6000 years of recorded history.

I've satisfied your CFR you just don't like what it said.

 

No, you did not. Nothing that you have provided supports your claim that the majority of hetero minors have their first sexual experience with hetero adults. At best the source you provided said that the age of consent has changed and may continue to change. It gives no indication what percentage of population NOW (or in the history of earth) has had their first sexual experience with an adult.

 

You have been reported. 

[thesometimesaint]

For thousands of years there was no distinction between adults and children. Do you finally get it?

 

You need to support your assertion, retract it, or leave the thread.