Bsa Prez Calls For End To Ban On Gay Leaders

[Scott Lloyd]

You think someone is really going to come along and say:  I see you are no longer prohibiting gay leaders but we've looked into the gay leaders you've got and they aren't having sex with anyone so we're going to sue you?

No. I think they will try to make the national organization force the Church of Jesus Christ and other sponsoring organizations against their will to allow sexually active homosexuals to serve as local leaders in their sponsored troops.

 

And I think they'll apply pressure in any way they can to bring it about.

 

I ask again:

Do you honestly think they're going to quit until they've gotten everything they want? Look again at the quote I provided.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[smac97]

No. I think they will try to make the national organization force the Church of Jesus Christ and other sponsoring organizations against their will to allow sexually active homosexuals to serve as local leaders in their sponsored troops.

 

And I think they'll apply pressure in any way they can to bring it about.

 

I ask again:

Do you honestly think they're going to quit until they've gotten everything they want? Look again at the quote I provided.

 

I wonder if access to some BSA facilities could become contingent upon the capitulation of religious organizations. 

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, my wife works for the company that does the travel for the local counsel of the BSA - They fly first class and stay in 4 star hotels all paid for by donations, and people wonder why I get a sneer on my face when they  hand out the papers for  "Friends of scouting"

I'll wager that the annual Friends of Scouting appeal raises far more from Mormon households than any other sector of society.  In my wards, it is a very well organized effort, and people write real checks.  Even for those who know of the spendthrift attitude of scouting executives -- they swallow hard (due to their great love of scouting) and write a check.  And it is tax deductible every year.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wonder if access to some BSA facilities could become contingent upon the capitulation of religious organizations. 

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Very possibly.

 

Or other professional services provided by BSA.

[rockpond]

No. I think they will try to make the national organization force the Church of Jesus Christ and other sponsoring organizations against their will to allow sexually active homosexuals to serve as local leaders in their sponsored troops.

 

And I think they'll apply pressure in any way they can to bring it about.

 

I ask again:

Do you honestly think they're going to quit until they've gotten everything they want? Look again at the quote I provided.

 

This quote?

 

“He's made it clear that if the Boy Scouts don't make the change on their terms, the courts will change it on their terms,” said Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout and executive director of the advocacy group Scouts for Equality.

 

First he's a 23 year old kid that started an activist organization 3 years ago after gaining some YouTube fame.  Is this the "gay jihad" you're talking about?

 

Second, his statement seems to show his ignorance.  The BSA already won this court battle (BSA v Dale).  The request for change is coming internally, from Robert Gates, the president not from the judicial system.

 

Can you demonstrate what kind of pressure Gates is receiving from "the gay agenda" that is forcing him to make this recommendation?

[Scott Lloyd]

 

This quote?

 

“He's made it clear that if the Boy Scouts don't make the change on their terms, the courts will change it on their terms,” said Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout and executive director of the advocacy group Scouts for Equality.

 

First he's a 23 year old kid that started an activist organization 3 years ago after gaining some YouTube fame.  Is this the "gay jihad" you're talking about?

 

Second, his statement seems to show his ignorance.  The BSA already won this court battle (BSA v Dale).  The request for change is coming internally, from Robert Gates, the president not from the judicial system.

 

Can you demonstrate what kind of pressure Gates is receiving from "the gay agenda" that is forcing him to make this recommendation?

 

I had in mind this portion of the quote that goes more directly to the point I was making:

 

“Now we need to make sure not only does that ban come to an end, but that it's enforced across the country,” Wahls said, adding, “There needs to be full inclusion for gay adults.”

 

Bold emphasis mine.

 

And "23-year-old kid" or not, he's influential enough that he's being quoted nationally in news outlets. His words have to be regarded as a barometer of the gay-rights movement.

 

I ask again: Do you realistically think they're going to stop until they've gotten everything they want? In the words of the above spokesman, "full inclusion for gay adults" that is "enforced across the country."

 

Sounds pretty universal to me.

 

As for the pressure Gates is receiving, I think he has made that pretty clear in his statement of yesterday. Clearly, he's already running scared and I have no reason to feel confident he won't continue to cave in.

 

He said he wouldn't raise this issue again for two years. And now this. Seems like he needs a backbone transplant.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

If Gary has "committed to never acting on his homosexual impulses," and if he is not "open and avowed" about his impulses, then I think he could qualify for a scout leadership position.

Thanks,

-Smac

The problem, Smac, is the very high recidivism rate for child molesters.  It would be nice if he were able to keep his commitment (which he may sincerely mean when he makes it), but who will be the guarantor?  The boys?  How much risk should our children be subjected to?

[Robert F. Smith]

 ........................................................

And I think many of those who are supporting this change tacitly (or perhaps otherwise) agree with Scott's surmise. This is an incremental step toward a larger goal of either coercing religious groups into capitulating on their beliefs, or else injuring them by forcing them out of the BSA.

.........................................................  

But the greatest injury by far would be to the BSA itself, which would the lose the major funding and large membership of the LDS Church (and of any other churches which might choose to leave).

[Calm]

The problem, Smac, is the very high recidivism rate for child molesters. 

Why would the recidivism rate apply to someone who had never molested a child in the first place?

Edited May 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[rockpond]

I had in mind this portion of the quote that goes more directly to the point I was making:

 

Bold emphasis mine.

 

And "23-year-old kid" or not, he's influential enough that he's being quoted nationally in news outlets. His words have to be regarded as a barometer of the gay-rights movement.

 

I ask again: Do you realistically think they're going to stop until they've gotten everything they want? In the words of the above spokesman, "full inclusion for gay adults" that is "enforced across the country."

 

Sounds pretty universal to me.

 

As for the pressure Gates is receiving, I think he has made that pretty clear in his statement of yesterday. Clearly, he's already running scared and I have no reason to feel confident he won't continue to cave in.

 

He said he wouldn't raise this issue again for two years. And now this. Seems like he needs a backbone transplant.

 

And where does Zach Wahls mention that full inclusion means a litmus test that a given leader is sexually active?  This is nonsense.  The church has been prohibiting leaders who don't live the law of chastity forever.

 

It sounds like you are actually upset that BSA leaders aren't standing up for what you value.  They have a SCOTUS decision behind them.  They spent years if not decades ignoring the "gay agenda".  You're saying that he doesn't have a backbone.  Maybe you should address the real problem.  It's not some imaginary gay jihad, its that the current BSA leaders don't support your views.  

[smac97]

The problem, Smac, is the very high recidivism rate for child molesters.  It would be nice if he were able to keep his commitment (which he may sincerely mean when he makes it), but who will be the guarantor?  The boys?  How much risk should our children be subjected to?

 

I don't follow.  As I have said before, I reject equivalency between people with SSA and people with pedophilia.  Rather, I think there is some substantial overlap between the two.  Reisman calls the latter a "subculture" of the former.

 

There is also an overlap, but not equivalency, between people who are heterosexual and people with pedophilia.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Daniel2]

I thought it was 18%.

Thanks,

-Smac

A loss or either 13% or 18% doesn't seem to herald the dell-knell for the BSA that most here seem to be predicting, should the LDS church withdraw from scouting.

[smac97]

A loss or either 13% or 18% doesn't seem to herald the dell-knell for the BSA that most here seem to be predicting, should the LDS church withdraw from scouting.

 

I'm not sure the LDS Church is the only religious group which could walk out the door if the BSA changes its policy.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Daniel2]

Force the issue of having BSA require all sponsoring organizations accross the board, including religious groups, to admit sexually active homosexuals as leaders.

Edited to add:

This guy sounds pretty absolutist to me, like he won't tolerate a policy that allows local units to make their own determination:

Do you honestly think they're going to quit until they've gotten everything they want, religious freedom be damned?

You clearly have not read much (if any) of Zach Wahl's thoughts on the matter. I would encourage you to do so--I think most woukd be pleasantly surprised at his thoughtful, balanced, and non-accusatory pproach to LGBT issues (incidently, he's not gay--he is a staight young man who was raised by two moms).

[Daniel2]

I'm not sure the LDS Church is the only religious group which could walk out the door if the BSA changes its policy.

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't forsee the Catholics walking away, given that a majority of Catholics support LGBT rights. Other smaller gay-averse religious groups are likely offset by the gay-affirming religious groups, so those are probably 6's.

[Robert F. Smith]

Someone has hi-jacked this account!  This is NOT the Robert F. Smith whom I so admire.  It certainly isn't the man to whom I'm personally indebted for his courageous stand for civil rights.

 

That man, whom I adore, is simply much too smart to equate homosexuality with pedophilia.  He is too moral, too righteous and too decent for such an absurd assertion.  He is also too intelligent to not know that vast majority of those who have sexually abused scouts were MARRIED men, who appeared in every external respect to be "normal" people (do you really think that people have been handing their children over to extravagantly gay men to be mentored?).  So how does the scout ban on gay scout leaders protect against these men?  It doesn't, and the man whom I respect knows that.

 

So, whoever this person is, cease and desist your unauthorized use of Brother Smith's account!  He is too decent and kind to have such absurdity posted under his name.

 No one has pirated my account, Newby, and I am speaking about the results of actual historical research on the issue, both in and out of the LDS Church.  I am talking about a real threat of predation on young boys, and their right not to be victims, not about denial of civil liberties to gay men.  One must weigh the matter in the balance, and Smac has already given us the Reisman statistics, which are borne out by other research. and which should be very sobering to all of us.  Because, although homosexuality does not equal pedophilia, there is a much higher likelihood of pedophiles on young boys coming from the ranks of homosexuals.

 

I could recount here in detail an array of assaults on young boys by LDS pedophiles, many with formal Church positions which gave them trusted access to young boys.  In many cases, not only was there massive trauma, but the Church had to pay large damages at court.  Most members probably don't consider that a good way in which to spend tithing moneys.

 

One could make a like statement about the Roman Catholic priesthood and holy orders (monks).  It took years and tens of thousands of victims before the U. S. Conference of Bishops decided to approve a zero tolerance policy, and even longer before they decided not to allow homosexuals into the priesthood.

[Daniel2]

I could recount here in detail an array of assaults on young boys by LDS pedophiles, many with formal Church positions which gave them trusted access to young boys.

The please do so. CFR.

[carbon dioxide]

A loss or either 13% or 18% doesn't seem to herald the dell-knell for the BSA that most here seem to be predicting, should the LDS church withdraw from scouting.

Scouting would continue of the LDS Church withdrew but scouting would lose one of its strongest supporters.  Scouting in Utah is growing while it is declining nationally.  It will continue to decline as more kids rather spend time on the internet over going camping and making a knot.

[Robert F. Smith]

I reject an across-the-board allegation that all homosexuals are pedophiles. That's simply not the case. Such a calumny has no more merit than when feminists accuse all men of being rapists.

So the question, really, is whether there is a significant overlap between homosexuals and pedophiles. ..........................................

.................................................................

Thank you for the Reisman statistics, smac, of which I was unaware, but which dovetail with research done in the past:

 

81% or more of the cases of pedophilia which have racked the Roman Catholic Church were homosexual¹ in nature.  In one decade alone over 800 pedophile priests were outed in the USA, including several archbishops, while perhaps an equal number of priests died of AIDS.²  The National Review Board (assigned by the U.S. Conference of Bishops to address this issue) finally said that upwards of 10,000 American children were molested by at least 4,000 priests during the past half-century.³  A very conservative estimate, since over 1,000 of those assaults took place in Boston alone.

 

There is an obsessive-compulsive problem here which can lead to this sort of disaster.  For, as psychologist Allen E. Bergin pointed out, long before the HIV/AIDS crisis began, 50% of white male homosexuals in San Francisco had each had at least 500 sexual partners, 28% had had 1,000 partners, and fully 25% of the adult homosexual males of San Francisco had actually had sex with minors under the age of 16⁴ – while many more retained that as an objective and used a variety of means to obtain access to young boys, e.g., via adult leadership and participation in the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), or the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA),⁵ and the like, or simply cruising in search of young male prostitutes – or now by “cruising” gay chat rooms on the internet in search of “quick turnaround sex” (current statistics are astonishing, and gay & bisexual males “are two to three times as likely as heterosexual men to seek sexual partners online”).⁶

------------------  

1 Donald B. Cozzens, The Changing Face of the Priesthood: A Reflection on the Priest’s Crisis of Soul (2000), 111-119.  Moreover, Cozzens states, the profile of many priestly pedophiles is that of a focused sociopath who feels no guilt and is only sorry when he is caught.  Cf. Cozzens, Sacred Silence: Denial and the Crisis in the Church (2002).  Hundreds of Roman Catholic priests have died of AIDS since 1981.

 

2 Garry Wills, Papal Sin: Structures of Deceit (2000), 193 (citing a poll by the Kansas City Star), which is a much higher rate than among the general population.

 

3   Los Angeles Times, Feb 27, 2004, A1,28.

 

4   Bergin, “Bringing the Restoration to the Academic World: Clinical Psychology as a Test Case,” BYU Studies, 19/4 (1979), 449-473 (esp. 467, citing Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg [1978]).  Cf. Eli Schuster, “Study Shows Link Between Homosexuality and Pedophilia,” The Interim, Sept 2002 (http://www.lifesite.net/interim ), citing Timothy J. Dailey, Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse (2002).

 

5   John D. Gustav-Wrathall, Take the Young Stranger by the Hand: Same-Sex Relations and the YMCA (1998), his published dissertation (he is gay and a former BYU student of D. Michael Quinn).  Horatio Alger, for example, used both the YMCA and homes for newsboys as his venues for procurement of young boys for sex, after he had to leave his ministry of a Unitarian congregation in Brewster, Massachusetts, for molesting two young boys (“Biographies: The Lives of Horatio Alger, Jr.,” at http://www.lib.rochester.edu/ camelot/cinder/bio.htm ); Gary Scharnhorst and Jack Bales, The Lost Life of Horatio Alger, Jr. (1985) – with the pickup of young boys by affluent young men being a standard plot-line in his famous novels.  

 

6 Charles Ornstein, “Online Access to Risky Sex,” Los Angeles Times, July 26, 2002 (“Column One”), A1,26-27 (quotes from A1 and 26, respectively).  Just one internet site, http://www.gay.com reported 17.7 million chat sessions in April 2002 (A26-27, with statistical chart).

[rockpond]

No one has pirated my account, Newby, and I am speaking about the results of actual historical research on the issue, both in and out of the LDS Church. I am talking about a real threat of predation on young boys, and their right not to be victims, not about denial of civil liberties to gay men. One must weigh the matter in the balance, and Smac has already given us the Reisman statistics, which are borne out by other research. and which should be very sobering to all of us. Because, although homosexuality does not equal pedophilia, there is a much higher likelihood of pedophiles on young boys coming from the ranks of homosexuals.

I could recount here in detail an array of assaults on young boys by LDS pedophiles, many with formal Church positions which gave them trusted access to young boys. In many cases, not only was there massive trauma, but the Church had to pay large damages at court. Most members probably don't consider that a good way in which to spend tithing moneys.

One could make a like statement about the Roman Catholic priesthood and holy orders (monks). It took years and tens of thousands of victims before the U. S. Conference of Bishops decided to approve a zero tolerance policy, and even longer before they decided not to allow homosexuals into the priesthood.

So policies against gay leaders didn't prevent predation on young boys.

[rockpond]

Thank you for the Reisman statistics, smac, of which I was unaware, but which dovetail with research done in the past:

81% or more of the cases of pedophilia which have racked the Roman Catholic Church were homosexual¹ in nature. In one decade alone over 800 pedophile priests were outed in the USA, including several archbishops, while perhaps an equal number of priests died of AIDS.² The National Review Board (assigned by the U.S. Conference of Bishops to address this issue) finally said that upwards of 10,000 American children were molested by at least 4,000 priests during the past half-century.³ A very conservative estimate, since over 1,000 of those assaults took place in Boston alone.

There is an obsessive-compulsive problem here which can lead to this sort of disaster. For, as psychologist Allen E. Bergin pointed out, long before the HIV/AIDS crisis began, 50% of white male homosexuals in San Francisco had each had at least 500 sexual partners, 28% had had 1,000 partners, and fully 25% of the adult homosexual males of San Francisco had actually had sex with minors under the age of 16⁴ – while many more retained that as an objective and used a variety of means to obtain access to young boys, e.g., via adult leadership and participation in the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), or the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA),⁵ and the like, or simply cruising in search of young male prostitutes – or now by “cruising” gay chat rooms on the internet in search of “quick turnaround sex” (current statistics are astonishing, and gay & bisexual males “are two to three times as likely as heterosexual men to seek sexual partners online”).⁶

------------------

1 Donald B. Cozzens, The Changing Face of the Priesthood: A Reflection on the Priest’s Crisis of Soul (2000), 111-119. Moreover, Cozzens states, the profile of many priestly pedophiles is that of a focused sociopath who feels no guilt and is only sorry when he is caught. Cf. Cozzens, Sacred Silence: Denial and the Crisis in the Church (2002). Hundreds of Roman Catholic priests have died of AIDS since 1981.

2 Garry Wills, Papal Sin: Structures of Deceit (2000), 193 (citing a poll by the Kansas City Star), which is a much higher rate than among the general population.

3 Los Angeles Times, Feb 27, 2004, A1,28.

4 Bergin, “Bringing the Restoration to the Academic World: Clinical Psychology as a Test Case,” BYU Studies, 19/4 (1979), 449-473 (esp. 467, citing Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg [1978]). Cf. Eli Schuster, “Study Shows Link Between Homosexuality and Pedophilia,” The Interim, Sept 2002 (http://www.lifesite.net/interim ), citing Timothy J. Dailey, Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse (2002).

5 John D. Gustav-Wrathall, Take the Young Stranger by the Hand: Same-Sex Relations and the YMCA (1998), his published dissertation (he is gay and a former BYU student of D. Michael Quinn). Horatio Alger, for example, used both the YMCA and homes for newsboys as his venues for procurement of young boys for sex, after he had to leave his ministry of a Unitarian congregation in Brewster, Massachusetts, for molesting two young boys (“Biographies: The Lives of Horatio Alger, Jr.,” at http://www.lib.rochester.edu/ camelot/cinder/bio.htm ); Gary Scharnhorst and Jack Bales, The Lost Life of Horatio Alger, Jr. (1985) – with the pickup of young boys by affluent young men being a standard plot-line in his famous novels.

6 Charles Ornstein, “Online Access to Risky Sex,” Los Angeles Times, July 26, 2002 (“Column One”), A1,26-27 (quotes from A1 and 26, respectively). Just one internet site, http://www.gay.com reported 17.7 million chat sessions in April 2002 (A26-27, with statistical chart).

What percentage of the priests who are guilty of molesting boys were open/avowed homosexuals?

[Nemesis]

Yea lets not go where you all are trying to take this and keep to the topic and smac intentions of this thread.

Nemesis

[Stargazer]

There's pages of posts I'm not going to read (time constraints because I have a priesthood lesson to prepare), but when I heard this I thought to myself, "Well, why not?"  Whereupon, I replied, "First, though: why?"

 

It seems to me that the core reason why gays have not been accepted in BSA is that homosexuality has historically been accounted as immoral per se, and so how can the Scout Law include

 

"A Scout is...clean,"

 

where "clean" refers to morality, not whether you've washed your hands before supper, while at the same time you permit a practicing homosexual to participate?  This breaks a particular of the Scout Law just as surely as stealing something.

 

But we have come to a time when homosexual behavior has not only been decriminalized, but has in many places become accepted and indeed, even celebrated.  Thus it seems like it might be ridiculous to continue with the BSA excluding practicing homosexuals -- because this behavior isn't considered immoral any longer in society at large. 

 

Am I completely off-base here?

 

 

[Ham Clam]

If the Church cuts ties with the BSA, my Dad will be heartbroken. Scouting is his one and only hobby. He keeps manuals from who-knows-when, and its how he bonds with my brother-in-law. He's not currently in Scouting leadership in my ward, but he's always looking to help.

I, personally, want to see the Church develop it's on youth program for boys  though.

[Robert F. Smith]

What percentage of the priests who are guilty of molesting boys were open/avowed homosexuals?

Since many of them were known homosexuals in the actively homosexual seminaries in which they were trained, and since many were known as homosexuals to their fellow priests (and to their bishops) in their assigned dioceses, and since many of them were carefully moved to new parishes or dioceses after discovery of their sexual molestation of children, the lawsuits brought against the Roman Catholic Church were often very successful.  There are, as I have pointed out, thousands of such priests which have been discovered to be child molesters.  What percentage were known to the ordinary, lay parishoners?  Probably very few.  But the percentage known to their fellow priests was likely quite high.

 

The shame of it is that the vast majority of priests, monks, and nuns are very sincere, but did not make waves within their church when it counted.  They turned a blind eye to the problem until it was too late.  Often their bishops simply transferred the predators to new areas.