2014 Pew Forum Report On Religion In America

[3DOP]

Along with Cal, I'm curious as to your thoughts on why this decline has happened. Possibilities that occur to me include (i) aging population affects catholics more than other faiths, (ii) priest abuse scandals, (iii) clergy-laity divide that doesn't exist in other faiths, at least to the same degree, and (iv) growing divide between church teachings and actual beliefs of the membership (contraception, etc.). Would you agree with these or any anything? What is the biggest reason in your opinion? And most importantly, where do you see the biggest lesson for us LDS?

 

BTW, I live in a highly catholic area and my wife's extended family are all catholics. I genuinely like the faith. Most people in my neighborhood assume we're catholic because we have a lot of kids. True story - a few years ago we were standing in a shopping line together and a older catholic woman behind us whispered to my wife and me "it's good to see a young couple who follows the pope's direction on contraception." I couldn't think of anything good to say at the time so just said "thank you." With the passage of time, I still can't think of a good response.

 

That's an interesting story Buckeye. Thank you is always a fine answer to an attempt at a compliment, even one that is mistaken.

 

Hi to you too cal.

 

The biggest problem in my opinion isn't fundamentally about doctrines or morals. It is that church going isn't a meaningful experience for many or perhaps most Catholics. There has to be intellectual stimulation and a joy of discovery and progress in faith that results. It can't be what has been described as a mere "duty parade". A meaningful church going experience where the faith is understood and reverenced will result in faithful who are not so inclined to disrespect the teaching of the church. When the ceremonial experience is obviously lacking, it becomes difficult to believe a Church that claims to speak with God's authority and requires us to believe propositions that astonish the mind and leaves one groping to understand. The basis for a mysterious theology must be supported by religious ceremony that reflects the importance and legitimacy of mysteries in our faith. Corniness is incompatible with a vibrant Catholicism.

 

They thought that by making the priest take a back seat while the lay people do almost everything except preach the sermon, it would be exciting for the faithful. No. Instead it is repulsive watching self-important lay people trying to do what priests have been ordained to do, and have always done with much more propriety. Saturday Night Live recently did a lampoon of what a Christmas Mass is like in most Novus Ordo parishes. Terrible music, boring sermons, an insipid liturgical service that is completely inadequate to convey the majestic truth of what we are supposed to believe is happening at Mass. What makes this skit so funny is that most church going Catholics can vividly relate to it. The skit shows why many serious Catholics travel outside of their parish boundaries to escape the inane, corny atmosphere that seems to be the unifying characteristic of most Catholic churches. I suppose it also shows why some Catholics travel entirely out of church. The Catholic needs to love going to Mass.

 

A well known English Catholic of the last century expresses his own dismay at the reformed liturgy in words that can perhaps convey how those of us attached to the Old Rite feel about what has been done: "Easter used to mean so much to me. Before Pope John and his Council - they destroyed the beauty of the liturgy. I have not yet soaked myself in petrol and gone up in flames, but I now cling to the Faith doggedly and without joy. Church going is a pure duty parade. I shall not live to see it restored. It is worse in many countries."

 

The Letters of Evelyn Waugh, edited by Mark Amory, Penguin Books 1980, p. 639

 

There are those who keep to the duty parade as they see it. But children of such parents do not aspire to keep going to Mass as soon as they are old enough to get out of the house. Much less do they aspire to the priesthood or religious life. There is still a candle burning, but it is more or less hidden under a bushel basket in that the faithful are warned about how dangerous it is to look under the basket. I speak of the flame that continues to burn in those out of the way places where the Traditional Mass has been kept, sometimes in defiance of authorities in the Church who seem to be almost deranged in their stubborn adherence to a self-loathing against their own Church, and their own heritage. They seem embarrassed to have to be attached to Catholics like myself who remain proud of the history and dogmas of our Holy Mother Church. 

 

In regards to your question about Mormons and what they should do, I don't know. I know that I hear grownup Mormons here sometimes complain about how boring church going can be. If some have the perseverance to endure a "duty parade" for life, many others can't, and especially the young. I don't advocate that we try to make church going cool, but we certainly have to avoid it being corny. There needs to be perceptible beauty and profound meaningfulness in the words and actions of the priests and people during our religious ceremonies. I do not have any suggestions on how to accomplish that in a Mormon setting.

 

I hope I have found the answer in a Catholic setting. Unfortunately, it entails being labelled schismatic and disobedient. Sometimes we are accused of being Protestant! Would that the Conciliar Church would treat us like Protestants. They will happily sell their empty church buildings to Protestants or for any secular use, but not to the Society of St. Pius X. Jesus said we would know the tree by its fruit. The Pew report confirms what my eyes have been telling me. The Church of the Council, the Church that "opens its windows wide to the world" as Pope John proclaimed it should, is a church of spiritual sterility and death. The fruit is a skit that shows the new liturgy and the priest and the faithful as a laughingstock. Sad to say, but rightly so in my opinion. Corny is the best word I can think of to describe what I see. And that is why I have been so bold as to attach myself and my family, for the sake of my own and their soul's salvation, to chapels operated by SSPX priests who have an irregular canonical status.

 

Here is the skit if anybody is interested...

 

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A86.J7wbv1NVPnYAG9ljmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsOXB2YTRjBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--?p=youtube+snl+mass&tnr=21&vid=71823B90DA1EDC05C12771823B90DA1EDC05C127&l=189&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.3jpNrVGOFG5YNRkGvrPFKA%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11v10oeta&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZiuYmM0lG6o&sigr=11b61pa1c&tt=b&***=Church+-+Saturday+Night+Live&sigt=10sp8ugav&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bsnl%2Bmass%26type%3DHAWA0001SERP0001PROD%26fmid%3D0%26hsimp%3Dyhs-hawaiian_001%26hspart%3Drlo%26fr%3Dyhs-rlo-hawaiian_001%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=14q80as2v&hspart=rlo&hsimp=yhs-hawaiian_001

 

Wow, long web address. If that is not the skit, just google snl mass skit.

Edited May 13, 2015 by 3DOP

[carbon dioxide]

One religion was not mentioned.  That is the religion of Apple and Andriod phones.  That seems to be the main worship in society today.  Nobody can go 5 minutes without checking for some sort of message they got.

Edited May 13, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Robert F. Smith]

Perhaps, but at the present the word on the ground I’m hearing from family and friends that live in the district (most of whom are in the Payson district now), is that they are having difficulty getting enough ordinance workers.  Also, the Provo temple for a long time was the busiest temple in the church, and they have the ability to put a lot of people through at one time (6 endowment rooms). 

..............................................................  

Provo Temple has lost over half its ordinance workers already (I knew and worked with some of them), so a crisis of lack of workers is an issue for both temples, and that may indeed be exacerbated by the opening of the Provo City Center Temple.  However, the Brethren could simply ask the Stake Presidents to speak to their bishops about the problem, and to call someone to be an ordinance worker here and there.  My bishop asked me in a low-key way back in 2010, and I was soon working in the Provo Temple.  I might not have considered it otherwise.  I later gave a talk in my ward about the temple, and mentioned that we would soon need more ordinance workers due to the future opening of the Payson Temple.  I think that there will be an adequate response.  Don't worry, hope.

[carbon dioxide]

Provo Temple has lost over half its ordinance workers already (I knew and worked with some of them), so a crisis of lack of workers is an issue for both temples, and that may indeed be exacerbated by the opening of the Provo City Center Temple.  However, the Brethren could simply ask the Stake Presidents to speak to their bishops about the problem, and to call someone to be an ordinance worker here and there.  My bishop asked me in a low-key way back in 2010, and I was soon working in the Provo Temple.  I might not have considered it otherwise.  I later gave a talk in my ward about the temple, and mentioned that we would soon need more ordinance workers due to the future opening of the Payson Temple.  I think that there will be an adequate response.  Don't worry, hope.

I don't understand why they built another temple in Provo.  Those are too close together.  Perhaps they can make temple ordinance workers as a stake calling.  They should get enough workers if they did that.

[Robert F. Smith]

............................

I hope I have found the answer in a Catholic setting. Unfortunately, it entails being labelled schismatic and disobedient. Sometimes we are accused of being Protestant! Would that the Conciliar Church would treat us like Protestants. They will happily sell their empty church buildings to Protestants or for any secular use, but not to the Society of St. Pius X. Jesus said we would know the tree by its fruit. The Pew report confirms what my eyes have been telling me. The Church of the Council, the Church that "opens its windows wide to the world" as Pope John proclaimed it should, is a church of spiritual sterility and death. The fruit is a skit that shows the new liturgy and the priest and the faithful as a laughingstock. Sad to say, but rightly so in my opinion. Corny is the best word I can think of to describe what I see. And that is why I have been so bold as to attach myself and my family, for the sake of my own and their soul's salvation, to chapels operated by SSPX priests who have an irregular canonical status.

 

.........................................................   

I'm sorry to hear that, Rory.  My experience going to Holy Trinity Church several times in San Pedro, Calif., was completely different, and the parishoners very friendly.  I found the priest's homily intelligent, spiritual, and engaging, the musical numbers very well-prepared.  I enjoyed myself each time.  Of course, I do bring my own intense interest in religion and spirituality, so that may be predictable.  However, the rest of the full congregation seemed to enjoy it as well.  I also attended the funeral of a fellow-worker there and found it a deeply moving experience.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't understand why they built another temple in Provo.  Those are too close together.  Perhaps they can make temple ordinance workers as a stake calling.  They should get enough workers if they did that.

After the first fire and subsequent renovation, some of us enjoyed having our stake conferences in the old Provo Tabernacle.  Hugh Nibley's funeral was held there, and some General Authorities came.  When it burned again many lost hope, and there were bitter tears shed.  No one thought that it would ever be renovated again, much less that it would become a temple.  It was just an empty shell.

 

We rejoiced when it was announced that it would be a temple, and we were ecstatic when the effort was to restore it to its original glory ca. 1910.  I lived in that new temple district once, but have since moved to the Provo Temple district, and am a bit disappointed that I will not be able to serve there.

[Brian 2.0]

One religion was not mentioned. That is the religion of Apple and Andriod phones. That seems to be the main worship in society today. Nobody can go 5 minutes without checking for some sort of message they got.

Agreed!

- Sent from my iPhone

[Nofear]

Sure. the sample size, I notice, isn't consistent with population for each state. meaning Utah with it's near 3 million people had the same sample size as Alaska and Wyoming with much smaller populations. So I'm not it'd be wise to report for any state or any religion if it's a problem. But they did it. So it's all we have.

 

Only 664 Mormons were interviewed and so state by state statistics were difficult. As it was, a lot of the interviews were by phone and the area code was used as a determining factor, though they recognized that it isn't perfect (and tried to accommodate that). For example, my wife still has an Idaho area code but does not live in Idaho.

 

Appendix A: Methodology

[bluebell]

Only 664 Mormons were interviewed and so state by state statistics were difficult. As it was, a lot of the interviews were by phone and the area code was used as a determining factor, though they recognized that it isn't perfect (and tried to accommodate that). For example, my wife still has an Idaho area code but does not live in Idaho.

 

Appendix A: Methodology

 

Both my husband and i still have a Wyoming area code though we haven't lived there since 2010.  We have no plans to change our numbers whether we ever end up back in Wyoming or not.  Using the area code seems like a poor idea.  Why not just ask the people where they live?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/05/13/nones-americans-christians-evangelicals-column/27198423/

Makes some good points.

[Robert F. Smith]

We've drove by three large complexes for new senior assisted living centers on the way to the hospital today (stomach flu and diabetes is not a nice mixture, love those ER drugs).  Plus there are a number of apt complexes being a couple of places in Orem and dozens of neighbourhoods adding housing down here in Spanish Fork and Payson and I assume south, just haven't driven past there lately.

You should see the line of cement trucks heading up to Elk Ridge daily -- a typical primary in a ward up there has maybe 200 children.

[stemelbow]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/05/13/nones-americans-christians-evangelicals-column/27198423/

Makes some good points.

yes interesting. When I apply this thinking to LDS as an example, it makes me worried. it means we are losing, if you will, nominal LDS. Some people probably feel like that's a good thing, but I certainly don't. I'd much rather have nominal LDS in my ward than non-nominal. IT also could very well mean we are becoming far more strident in pushing people out, setting up boundaries, and, as it seems to be very likely of the past many years, causing people to feel isolated.

As it is, I think the Pew study, that this article wants to critique, without actually critiquing it's work, seems to conclude something very similarly.

[bluebell]

You should see the line of cement trucks heading up to Elk Ridge daily -- a typical primary in a ward up there has maybe 200 children.

 

I'm a primary chorister and belong to a Facebook group for that calling that is worldwide.  I am always amazed when choristers or primary presidents from the provo area talk about how big their primaries are.  There are some that have 50 kids just in nursery alone.  Nursery!  I can't even imagine that.

[thesometimesaint]

yes interesting. When I apply this thinking to LDS as an example, it makes me worried. it means we are losing, if you will, nominal LDS. Some people probably feel like that's a good thing, but I certainly don't. I'd much rather have nominal LDS in my ward than non-nominal. IT also could very well mean we are becoming far more strident in pushing people out, setting up boundaries, and, as it seems to be very likely of the past many years, causing people to feel isolated.

As it is, I think the Pew study, that this article wants to critique, without actually critiquing it's work, seems to conclude something very similarly.

 

Agreed, though I do see it as a declining trend, not an increasing trend.

Edited May 15, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Mystery Meat]

yes interesting. When I apply this thinking to LDS as an example, it makes me worried. it means we are losing, if you will, nominal LDS. Some people probably feel like that's a good thing, but I certainly don't. I'd much rather have nominal LDS in my ward than non-nominal. IT also could very well mean we are becoming far more strident in pushing people out, setting up boundaries, and, as it seems to be very likely of the past many years, causing people to feel isolated.

As it is, I think the Pew study, that this article wants to critique, without actually critiquing it's work, seems to conclude something very similarly.

 

Agree and disagree. I largely think the nominals do it to themselves. Yes, it is probably true that they do feel out of place. I am not sure that is completely at the feet of the Church. The brethren and "hardliners" like me can say that everyone is welcome (and they truly are) until we are blue in the face, but at what point do people who are lukewarm stop feeling comfortable at Church? 

 

IMNSHO, the days of being a mildly committed Mormon (and probably Catholic, Evangelical, Lutheran, etc.) are numbered. It just won't work in the world we live in. And I think it is only going to get harder. I think the day will come when people who are uncomfortable with the Church continuing to preach its beliefs and doctrines (such as the reality that there really was a Zarahemla, Captain Moroni, and visitation by Jesus on this continent) will no longer be able to abide attending. Sadly, but in many ways unavoidable, I also think in time many of the people who currently engage in the good-intentioned practice of helping people justify their membership in the Church even though they no longer believe in a lot its stated beliefs, doctrines and positions will largely find themselves leaving as well. 

 

I think this is all unfortunate, but short of sacrificing vital, eternal and divine truth, it is unavoidable.

Edited May 15, 2015 by lvjd66

[stemelbow]

Agreed, though I do see it as a declining trend, not an increasing trend.

I can agree. I think by and large average members are open to discussing things that nominal members see as issues. And perhaps as time continues members will be more and more open, because currently, I'd also say there are limits, and some members are far less open than others to discuss these issues. But to me, that's a credit, a boon, a win, for the Church. The problem though is, I fear in another way, the distinctions are becoming more clear. meaning members often say things like, "well if someone supports SSM, or drinks or smokes, they really aren't LDS". Well who are these definers think they are? But it happens. In so doing, many members feel alienated, not appreciated, not included, not a part of it. Seems to be a big problem to me.

[stemelbow]

IMNSHO, the days of being a mildly committed Mormon (and probably Catholic, Evangelical, Lutheran, etc.) are numbered. It just won't work in the world we live in. And I think it is only going to get harder. I think the day will come when people who are uncomfortable with the Church continuing to preach its beliefs and doctrines (such as the reality that there really was a Zarahemla, Captain Moroni, and visitation by Jesus on this continent) will no longer be able to abide attending. Sadly, but in many ways unavoidable, I also think in time many of the people who currently engage in the good-intentioned practice of helping people justify their membership in the Church even though they no longer believe in a lot its stated beliefs, doctrines and positions will largely find themselves leaving as well. 

 

I think this is all unfortunate, but short of sacrificing vital, eternal and divine truth, it is unavoidable.

I hear ya, think I get where you're coming from, but disagree. I think, we, as Church, are much better off being fully inclusive and that would include re-evaluating our doctrines and practices in light of being more inclusive. I doubt God is so concerned with what we believe, as much as, how we live. That includes everyone. That's not to say He has no interest in us learning truths, as they say, but His interest is much less in keeping everything correct in everyone's head, it seems to me, than to keep love and peace in people's head (which, I would probably argue, is in essence "the Truth").

We fear losing truth, but, I fear, we do so at the expense of far more meaning and purpose (giving, encouraging, loving people), sometimes. There's where the problem lies, it seems to me. We're so proud and dogmatic we forget, too often, we're here for the sake of the world. Dogmatic truths don't save the world, Christ saves the world. Everything else is just appendages and reside in the area where disagreement can, actually bring positive results.

Edited May 15, 2015 by stemelbow

[Mystery Meat]

I hear ya, think I get where you're coming from, but disagree. I think, we, as Church, are much better off being fully inclusive and that would include re-evaluating our doctrines and practices in light of being more inclusive. I doubt God is so concerned with what we believe, as much as, how we live. That includes everyone. That's not to say He has no interest in us learning truths, as they say, but His interest is much less in keeping everything correct in everyone's head, it seems to me, than to keep love and peace in people's head (which, I would probably argue, is in essence "the Truth").

We fear losing truth, but, I fear, we do so at the expense of far more meaning and purpose (giving, encouraging, loving people), sometimes. There's where the problem lies, it seems to me. We're so proud and dogmatic we forget, too often, we're here for the sake of the world. Dogmatic truths don't save the world, Christ saves the world. Everything else is just appendages and reside in the area where disagreement can, actually bring positive results.

 

I think that all sounds good, but I think truth matters. A lot. I am having a hard time imagining the Lord actually supporting the Church and its members not embracing truth, no matter the good intention behind it. I think it is important, as you say, to care about people and that care and love should know almost no limitation. However, the Lord (and his servants) went to painstaking ends to reveal these truths. I think it would make a mockery of them and their sacrifices (including the death and martyrdom of Joseph Smith, the lives of Mormon and Moroni, and even the Atonement, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) to dilute truth to make the Church more appealing to folks who are simply not ready or willing to open their heart to the divine truth. Remember, the COJCOLDS is a preparatory school for the Celestial Kingdom. It is the only place on Earth where people can be actively trained for a celestial life. In my estimation, eliminating true doctrines from the Church so more people feel like they belong, would be like a science department at Cal Tech eliminating astronomical physics from the study of the universe because all of the hard math and physics were preventing people from wanting to learn more about the planets, stars and pretty supernovas.

 

Truth matters. Truth might even matter above all. That is not a popular opinion, but God himself is bound to eternal truths. Moreover, truth matters precisely because of people. People cannot be saved in ignorance. People need truth. They have the choice to reject or accept it. But just because it is not popular, easy to accept or even easy to understand does not mean we should discard it so more people feel comfortable in the pews. Such a blatant rejection of truth is unprecedented in scripture. Every time it has happened in history it leads to apostasy and loss of light.

 

To that I say no thanks. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by lvjd66

[thesometimesaint]

I can agree. I think by and large average members are open to discussing things that nominal members see as issues. And perhaps as time continues members will be more and more open, because currently, I'd also say there are limits, and some members are far less open than others to discuss these issues. But to me, that's a credit, a boon, a win, for the Church. The problem though is, I fear in another way, the distinctions are becoming more clear. meaning members often say things like, "well if someone supports SSM, or drinks or smokes, they really aren't LDS". Well who are these definers think they are? But it happens. In so doing, many members feel alienated, not appreciated, not included, not a part of it. Seems to be a big problem to me.

 

I think a LDS can support SSM as long as they don't agitate for it in public as being Church doctrine. IE; If they clearly state that it is just their private personal opinion, then that's alright by me. I'm OK with a LDS smoking and drinking as long as they are working at stopping, though Church doctrine is that they forfeit Temple attendance until they do. I've never understood this holier than thou attitude among some Church members. However I think we are required to teach them a better more Christlike way.

[carbon dioxide]

 

Truth matters. Truth might even matter above all. That is not a popular opinion, but God himself is bound to eternal truths. Moreover, truth matters precisely because of people. People cannot be saved in ignorance. People need truth. They have the choice to reject or accept it. But just because it is not popular, easy to accept or even easy to understand does not mean we should discard it so more people feel comfortable in the pews. Such a blatant rejection of truth is unprecedented in scripture. Every time it has happened in history it leads to apostasy and loss of light.

 

Truth does matter.  If all the Church cares about is maximizing the number of active members or converts, it could discard a lot of truth to appease the least common denominator that we desire.  Some truths are more important than others and some things do not matter like what day Jesus was born or whether Adam had a belly button but some truths must stand even it those truths limit the growth of the Church.  Any religion that stands for everything to appease the most people really stand for nothing.  Eventually those groups will reap what they sow.  We are to unload are baggage to come to Christ.  Life is not an exercise to seeing how much Christ will give up to get more people to follow him yet some people really believe that is the case.  Man knows better and standards are to adjust to fit the century that man finds himself in rather than conforming to eternal standards that really do not care that it is the 21st century.

[stemelbow]

I think that all sounds good, but I think truth matters. A lot. I am having a hard time imagining the Lord actually supporting the Church and its members not embracing truth, no matter the good intention behind it. I think it is important, as you say, to care about people and that care and love should know almost no limitation. However, the Lord (and his servants) went to painstaking ends to reveal these truths. I think it would make a mockery of them and their sacrifices (including the death and martyrdom of Joseph Smith, the lives of Mormon and Moroni, and even the Atonement, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) to dilute truth to make the Church more appealing to folks who are simply not ready or willing to open their heart to the divine truth. Remember, the COJCOLDS is a preparatory school for the Celestial Kingdom. It is the only place on Earth where people can be actively trained for a celestial life. In my estimation, eliminating true doctrines from the Church so more people feel like they belong, would be like a science department at Cal Tech eliminating astronomical physics from the study of the universe because all of the hard math and physics were preventing people from wanting to learn more about the planets, stars and pretty supernovas.

 

Truth matters. Truth might even matter above all. That is not a popular opinion, but God himself is bound to eternal truths. Moreover, truth matters precisely because of people. People cannot be saved in ignorance. People need truth. They have the choice to reject or accept it. But just because it is not popular, easy to accept or even easy to understand does not mean we should discard it so more people feel comfortable in the pews. Such a blatant rejection of truth is unprecedented in scripture. Every time it has happened in history it leads to apostasy and loss of light.

 

To that I say no thanks.

When I read this, I realize how far apart we are. That's fine, as I suggested, disagreement can often bring about something good. So I'll try this out a little. I presume when you think of truth matters, you think of certain LDS teachings that comprise the truth that matters. I assume that because we certainly don't know all things. God has not seen fit to tell us all things. We probably couldn't handle it, or understand it, or whatever. I assume when you fear the idea of opening up, tolerating others, and their ideas, will destroy things like eternal family teachings from the Church, or something. I'm at a loss what would possibly happen, for instance, if say, the Church fully accepts, loves and embraces gay couples. Come to Church, enjoy the community, participate fully. I suppose if we did so, some would worry that it would mean we don't preach against homosexuality anymore. Or by accepting the "lifestyle" we are destroying the importance of family. But I don't know how. It just seems like fear-based speculation to me. So it makes me wonder, if God wants the best for us, is interested in the individual, maybe gay relations aren't so bad. If say, there is some eternal damage done by someone who so engages, I certainly don't understand it. Perhaps there is no such damage. Perhaps the objection to it has come from culture, tradition...stuff like that. And perhaps God is opposed.

But we don't know. God knows. I'd love it if we just went along in that realm of saying, we don't know...until or unless God actually commands.

Probably a bad example because some think God has commanded. But, that's kind of my point. There's disagreement. And we should tolerate disagreement.

[Rain]

Perhaps, but at the present the word on the ground I’m hearing from family and friends that live in the district (most of whom are in the Payson district now), is that they are having difficulty getting enough ordinance workers.  Also, the Provo temple for a long time was the busiest temple in the church, and they have the ability to put a lot of people through at one time (6 endowment rooms). 

 

 

This was the case when Jordan River was the busiest and Draper and Oquirrh were built.  It worked out.  There are similar things going on with Mesa with Gilbert and Phoenix being built.  

 

For awhile after they get going you will start to hear how "sad" it is that the first temple just doesn't have people going like they used to.  They forget that some of this is natural as people want to visit the new temples and some is planned for - that's why they built the other temples: so they could ease the congestion.  

 

It works out.  Temples don't just get planned for this year, but for years and years to come.  

 

I'm a primary chorister and belong to a Facebook group for that calling that is worldwide.  I am always amazed when choristers or primary presidents from the provo area talk about how big their primaries are.  There are some that have 50 kids just in nursery alone.  Nursery!  I can't even imagine that.

 

When I first moved into our Kearns, UT ward (west salt Lake county) I was surprised that primary was held in the chapel.  Then I found out they didn't have room to hold it anywhere else.  A number of people had moved out and the primary was smaller than it had been before. Around a year before we got there they had 450 kids in the primary! Some of those larger families moved to Utah county though most of their kids would be in high school or graduated now.  

[Mystery Meat]

When I read this, I realize how far apart we are. That's fine, as I suggested, disagreement can often bring about something good. So I'll try this out a little. I presume when you think of truth matters, you think of certain LDS teachings that comprise the truth that matters. I assume that because we certainly don't know all things. God has not seen fit to tell us all things. We probably couldn't handle it, or understand it, or whatever. I assume when you fear the idea of opening up, tolerating others, and their ideas, will destroy things like eternal family teachings from the Church, or something. I'm at a loss what would possibly happen, for instance, if say, the Church fully accepts, loves and embraces gay couples. Come to Church, enjoy the community, participate fully. I suppose if we did so, some would worry that it would mean we don't preach against homosexuality anymore. Or by accepting the "lifestyle" we are destroying the importance of family. But I don't know how. It just seems like fear-based speculation to me. So it makes me wonder, if God wants the best for us, is interested in the individual, maybe gay relations aren't so bad. If say, there is some eternal damage done by someone who so engages, I certainly don't understand it. Perhaps there is no such damage. Perhaps the objection to it has come from culture, tradition...stuff like that. And perhaps God is opposed.

But we don't know. God knows. I'd love it if we just went along in that realm of saying, we don't know...until or unless God actually commands.

Probably a bad example because some think God has commanded. But, that's kind of my point. There's disagreement. And we should tolerate disagreement.

 

I think you are conflating the issues and what I have said (or at least tried to say). I am not afraid of people's opinions on things, no matter how different they are. What I am saying the Church cannot afford to do is actively deny, move away from or otherwise reject previously restored eternal truths. That would have to start at the top of mortal church leadership. I think so long as the Key Holders (the first presidency and twelve) are preaching truth and holding true to it, the committed membership will have the spirit and follow suit. 

 

I don't want to make this thread about SSM, so I won't get into that.

[hope_for_things]

This was the case when Jordan River was the busiest and Draper and Oquirrh were built.  It worked out.  There are similar things going on with Mesa with Gilbert and Phoenix being built.  

 

For awhile after they get going you will start to hear how "sad" it is that the first temple just doesn't have people going like they used to.  They forget that some of this is natural as people want to visit the new temples and some is planned for - that's why they built the other temples: so they could ease the congestion.  

 

It works out.  Temples don't just get planned for this year, but for years and years to come.  

I’m grateful for optimism, and I also think the church does try to plan for the future growth, I just think that sometimes hindsight shows how poorly executed plans are, and I can think of many examples where errors have been made.

 

I know someone who works for the department in the church that manages the buildings and from talking to them it has been very interesting how much excess building capacity we have in parts of Utah, for chapels that is.  I really appreciate saving the tabernacle edifice; it’s a wonderful place with important tradition for the Provo area.  I just question whether the demand will be there in the future.  What if it takes 50 years of growth for the demand to merit the need for another temple in Provo, does that make this a wise decision?  

[3DOP]

I'm sorry to hear that, Rory.  My experience going to Holy Trinity Church several times in San Pedro, Calif., was completely different, and the parishoners very friendly.  I found the priest's homily intelligent, spiritual, and engaging, the musical numbers very well-prepared.  I enjoyed myself each time.  Of course, I do bring my own intense interest in religion and spirituality, so that may be predictable.  However, the rest of the full congregation seemed to enjoy it as well.  I also attended the funeral of a fellow-worker there and found it a deeply moving experience.

 

Hi Robert.

 

I probably failed to properly temper my remarks. I was conscious even as I wrote of your having had good experiences in the Catholic churches you have visited. I do not wish to paint with the proverbial broad brush. A problem, as I see it, is diversity. That is why I referred to how Catholics now shop around for a "home parish" and sometimes, especially for conservative Catholics, it is necessary to go some distance. I think the problem is such that the term "crisis" is appropriate. Even if most Catholics can find a parish that suits them,

that diversity does not seem to me to be the oneness for which our Saviour infallibly prayed. But it does reflect very accurately what might be expected according to church approved prophecies that culminated with the message of our Lady of Fatima, beginning 98 years ago last Wednesday.

 

If I am not mistaken, Mormons are ordinarily expected to attend church in their local ward? I think that is the word you use. That used to be the case in the Catholic Church, at a time when there was more uniformity in worship and teaching. I lament to admit that I think there is unquestionably a different experience in different Catholic parishes. If I understand your meaning, I am pleased that you have met with Catholic worship and fellowship that seems to you to be compatible with your idea of the good and true and beautiful. I also appreciate your commiseration.

 

I am sorry to be slow in getting back to you. You have been on my mind. Beginning Thursday morning at 5 AM...I get this text message from my boss to call immediately. As it happened, I had grabbed my regular Thursday trailer, 549, and it had caught fire the night before. It seems like this should have been communicated to me before I left at 4:30. Anyway, I won't try to explain how the rest of Thursday and Friday was affected. But suffice to say that this was my first chance to reply to your post. Oh, the problems of the truck driver. Heh. But we do get vacations and I am off all of next week.

 

We will be going to see our daughter in North Carolina...(we live in Washington State). 

 

God bless,

 

Rory

Edited May 16, 2015 by 3DOP