"face In The Hat Translation" - New Pictures In An Lds Book!

[ALarson]

Most likely he didn't bury his head in a hat. 

That term (bury) most likely came from Emma:

 

Emma Quote:

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."

 

 

Earlier, I posted all of the quotes I have gathered from witnesses regarding how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon.  It was in direct response to this comment:

"It might also help if every different type of translation process was identified since this is just a single method.  "

 

And also from Emma, she states that this was the process he translated the Book of Mormon we have today, so it's important to portray that, IMO:

 

Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.” 

 

 

 I would love to read any statements or accounts by witnesses that describe this too:  

"Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates."

 

I've asked for any of these "accounts" and so far no one has posted any.  I just think this is interesting to study (and it does makes sense that Joseph studied the characters).

 

Bottom line is, (and back to the topic of the OP), these pictures or portrayals posted here are awesome and both the artist and Fair Mormon should be praised for doing such great work!  I hope the books sells well.

Edited May 2, 2015 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

That term (bury) most likely came from Emma:

 

 

Earlier, I posted all of the quotes I have gathered from witnesses regarding how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon.  It was in direct response to this comment:

"It might also help if every different type of translation process was identified since this is just a single method.  "

 

And also from Emma, she states that this was the process he translated the Book of Mormon we have today, so it's important to portray that, IMO:

 

 

 

 I would love to read any statements or accounts by witnesses that describe this too:  

"Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates."

 

I've asked for any of these "accounts" and so far no one has posted any.  I just think this is interesting to study (and it does makes sense that Joseph studied the characters).

 

Bottom line is, (and back to the topic of the OP), these pictures or portrayals posted here are awesome and both the artist and Fair Mormon should be praised for doing such great work!  I hope the books sells well.

I give Fair Mormon a big "E" for effort.  Seriously, this is a great step.  I have mormon friends going...whaaaaat?

[Jeanne]

My father did not believe me when I told him that Joseph did use a peep stone and a hat.  He laughed and ridiculed me and called me a liar.  But from the church?? It is all well and fine and what the heck.  This is why it hurts when the truth is not out there.  I applaud anything that can sustain my knowledge of some of the truths of the past.  Thank you...I am no longer a liar.

[why me]

My father did not believe me when I told him that Joseph did use a peep stone and a hat.  He laughed and ridiculed me and called me a liar.  But from the church?? It is all well and fine and what the heck.  This is why it hurts when the truth is not out there.  I applaud anything that can sustain my knowledge of some of the truths of the past.  Thank you...I am no longer a liar.

It is amazing just how members can forget what the ensign once said. You can show your dad this article that was in the ensign in 1993. No hiding it back then. In fact the church was quite open about the head in the hat:

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament

 

David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

 

It was there for all to see in 1993. And when it was in the ensign, there was not a mass exodus of the church. The article says much about how it was done. And it was written by an apostle. Critics claim that the leaders know very little but actually they know much.

 

Emma Smith, who acted as an earlier scribe for Joseph, gave this account in 1856:

 

“When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him.

“When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [i didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.” (Edmund C. Briggs, “A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856,” Journal of History, Jan. 1916, p. 454.)

 

On another occasion, Emma Smith recorded:

“The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.” (“Last Testimony of Sister Emma,” Saints’ Herald, 1 Oct. 1879, p. 290; spelling modernized.)

Although the Prophet would polish his skills over the years, Emma acknowledged that Joseph possessed only rudimentary literacy at the time he translated the gold plates:

“Joseph Smith … could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the Book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, it is marvelous to me, ‘a marvel and a wonder,’ as much so as to any one else.” (Ibid.)

 

For some reason, the lds church did not publish much else after that. But certainly we all knew about the hat trick in the 70s. We talked about it in meetings. The article in the 1993 ensign was also a talk that was given to the missionaries in the MTC in 1992.

Edited May 2, 2015 by why me

[why me]

Church artists usually took the testimony of Richards when they drew Joseph's translating process. This was also in the ensign in 1977, along with other ways the book was translated:

 

When Brother Richards was eighty-two, he dictated a statement reporting Oliver Cowdery’s recollections of Book of Mormon translation:

“He represented Joseph as sitting at a table with the plates before him, translating them by means of the Urim and Thummim, while he (Oliver) sat beside him writing every word as Joseph spoke them to him. This was done by holding the ‘translators’ over the hieroglyphics, the translation appearing distinctly on the instrument, which had been touched by the finger of God and dedicated and consecrated for the express purpose of translating languages. Every word was distinctly visible even to every letter; and if Oliver omitted a word or failed to spell a word correctly, the translation remained on the ‘interpreter’ until it was copied correctly.”¹⁰

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng&query=book+of+mormon+translation+head+in+the+hat+ensign

 

The head in the hat is also mentioned in the link. This was in 1977 and so those of us who read the ensign knew about the process and we discussed it in various meetings. Nothing hidden. From the same link:

 

David Whitmer’s idea of translation is similar to Samuel Richards’s. Yet this view does not appear until 1875, nearly a half-century after Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery worked in David Whitmer’s home. His many statements on translation harmonize with his Address to All Believers In Christ, published in 1887 to supersede second-hand reports. There he gave his most detailed view of “the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated”:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.”¹¹

 

This is why I need to laugh out loud when critics claim that the church hides its history. I would prefer to say that the church no longer thought it suitable to keep the knowledge going year after year. But of course, they should have kept it going. No one was shocked in the 70s. But then again, there wasn't the internet to tell us that we should be shocked.

Edited May 2, 2015 by why me

[Tacenda]

Point well taken. I had not seen the pictures of Joseph having his face buried in his hat, which is exactly how I have interpretted the statements about how he translated. I allowed the presentation pictures in the OP to guide my statements. However, I agree fully with Why Me and his assessment of how difficult, if not impossible, it would be to have any text in focus in the depth of a hat.

Couldn't revelation just come to his mind, and the hat helped his concentration? Since the many corrections that have been made to the BoM have occurred. It seems it hasn't been a literal (?) translation.

[Scott Lloyd]

Of course by this line of reasoning the statements also don't rule out Joseph having translated the BoM while hopping on one foot and flapping his arms like a chicken. Who's to say he didn't? Perhaps it's a mystery, one in which we may never fully know the truth.

so you acknowledge, then, that the witness recollections presented here are not definitive?

[JulieM]

so you acknowledge, then, that the witness recollections presented here are not definitive?

You keep asking this, so you must have other witness descriptions of Joseph while translating?

Can you post them?

Edited May 2, 2015 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

You keep asking this, so you must have other witness descriptions of Joseph while translating?

Can you post them?

I'm only suggesting that when you conclude from a few recollections that you have a definitive understanding of what transpired throughout, you may well be like the six blind men of Indostan, each of whom touching only a small portion of an elephant determined that he had a full image of the elephant. One concluded the elephant was like a snake, another like a tree, another like a spear, and so forth.

I just read in Encyclopedia of Mormonism (and I'm not going to link it, because it's too hard with a mobile device; you can Google it), that William Smith, brother of the Prophet, reported that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim with one hand, leaving the other free to hold the plates. So apparently, at least part of the time, he was looking at the plates.

How much of the translation was done this way? I don't know. I'm guessing you don't either. Again, we're all like the six blind men of Indostan pertaining to this.

Joseph himself said next to nothing about the process of translation. Maybe that's because he didn't want people obsessing over it -- like the folks here on this thread are doing.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

My father did not believe me when I told him that Joseph did use a peep stone and a hat.  He laughed and ridiculed me and called me a liar.  But from the church?? It is all well and fine and what the heck.  This is why it hurts when the truth is not out there.  I applaud anything that can sustain my knowledge of some of the truths of the past.  Thank you...I am no longer a liar.

Maybe if you had said "seer stone" instead of "peep stone," his reaction would have been different.

[JulieM]

I'm only suggesting that when you conclude from a few recollections that you have a definitive understanding of what transpired throughout, you may well be like the six blind men of Indostan, each of whom touching only a small portion of an elephant determined that he had a full image of the elephant. One concluded the elephant was like a snake, another like a tree, another like a spear, and so forth.I just read in Encyclopedia of Mormonism (and I'm not going to link it, because it's too hard with a mobile device; you can Google it), that William Smith, brother of the Prophet, reported that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim with one hand, leaving the other free to hold the plates. So apparently, at least part of the time, he was looking at the plates.How much of the translation was done this way? I don't know. I'm guessing you don't either. Again, we're all like the six blind men of Indostan pertaining to this.Joseph himself said next to nothing about the process of translation. Maybe that's because he didn't want people obsessing over it -- like the folks here on this thread are doing.

I haven't seen anyone 'conclude" a "definitive understanding" (at least on this thread). I think the descrptions by the very people who saw Joseph translate (including his wife) should carry a great deal of weight. Especially when they seem to match up or agree for the most part. But I guess anything is possible, just as you stated.

When you get a chance, can you post a link to or paste William Smith's quote here?

Edited to correct spelling errors and to add:

You say that William Smith stated that Joseph "used the Urim and Thummim with one hand"? I thought they were spectacles (attached to a breast plate), so that doesn't make much sense. And then at the same time he used his free hand to "hold the plates"? Again, that doesn't make sense (at least to me as I try to visualize that).

Did William Smith actually ever see Joseph translate?

Edited May 3, 2015 by JulieM

[Jeanne]

Maybe if you had said "seer stone" instead of "peep stone," his reaction would have been different.

No..I don;t think that would have made any difference....you see, he wondered first how a hat had anything todo with those plates.

[JulieM]

Scott, is this what you are referring to from William Smith?

"Even the Prophet’s brother William, 53 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, talked of Joseph placing the Urim and Thummim in a hat.

'He translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim, (which he obtained with the plates), and the power of God. The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God.'"

Footnote:

“William Smith, On Mormonism, 1883,” in Early Mormon Documents, 1:497.

(Maybe he made other statements about the translation and use of the Urim &Thummim?)

Edited May 3, 2015 by JulieM

[bcuzbcuz]

Couldn't revelation just come to his mind, and the hat helped his concentration? Since the many corrections that have been made to the BoM have occurred. It seems it hasn't been a literal (?) translation.

Like water rings on a pond, each explanation, apologist attempt, to explain the actual details of the "translation" just create more ripples, more questions. If the Book of Mormon was translated without Joseph actually looking at the plates, then the plates weren't necessary. If it was revelation, then no corrections would be needed. If Joseph used his seer stone(s) that he had previously used to find gold and treasure and that stone was placed in his hat, as has been pointed out, being able to read the displayed texts at a hat's depth would be impossible. Eyes cannot focus at such a short distance. If each explanation requires a new wonderous additional explanation, then the answer moves further and further away from probability.

A related question. Doesn't the church still have Joseph's original seer stone?

[bcuzbcuz]

Scott, is this what you are referring to from William Smith?

"Even the Prophet’s brother William, 53 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, talked of Joseph placing the Urim and Thummim in a hat.

'He translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim, (which he obtained with the plates), and the power of God. The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God.'"

Footnote:

“William Smith, On Mormonism, 1883,” in Early Mormon Documents, 1:497.

(Maybe he made other statements about the translation and use of the Urim &Thummim?)

Calling the seer stone(s) and breastplate the "Urim and Thummin" was a later add on to church records. Whether they would have fit into a hat is highly unlikely, if the "Urim and Thummin" entailed both eyepieces and breastplate. Joseph did, however, long before receiving the eyepieces and breastplate, use a rounded stone, placed in his hat, in order to find lost treasures. That same method became his preferred method of translation of the golden plates.

[Calm]

The eyepieces were detachable...it was the stones/lenses/interpreters that were later referred to as UandT.

Edited May 3, 2015 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

The eyepieces were detachable...it was the stones/lenses/interpreters that were later referred to as UandT.

Have you any reference from ancient Jewish texts that give a description of the UandT? I remember seeing a drawing but don't remember its source.

[ALarson]

A related question. Doesn't the church still have Joseph's original seer stone?

Joseph Fielding Smith stated it was in the possession of the church:   

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'""

 

And this:

 "In about 1982, a descendent of Brigham Young, Mary Brown Firmage was told by the First Presidency's secretary that there were 3 seer stones in First Presidency's vault. She was allowed to see one when she visited that office. She reported: 'The stone was not chocolate brown but rather the color of brown sugar. It was 3-4 inches long, 2 inches wide, and had a hump in the middle which made it perhaps 2 inches thick at the thickest point. It was fiat on the bottom and had three black, concentric circles on the top 1/2 inch. Below the circles were many small black circles. The stone was not transparent.'"

 

Grant Palmer has also stated that he has seen them in the vault:

"In more recent years, Grant Palmer [three-time director of LDS Institutes of Religion in California and Utah] was 'shown by Earl Olson' the three 'seer stones in First Presidency Vault.' The first was 'milk chocolate [in color], like a baseball [in shape, with] no stripes.' Different from the descriptions of the founding prophet's dark-colored Book of Mormon seer stone, this first stone's origin and chain-of-ownership are unknown (at least outside the LDS Presidency's office). The second was 'shiny or polished stone, [with] stripes, dark brown [-] size between egg and handball.' ...The only description Palmer gave for the third was that it was a 'small stone.' The brown and white stones are the only seer stones Joseph Smith definitely used, yet he acquired others as Church T. Young told the apostles in 1855 that Smith had five seer stones..."

[ALarson]

The eyepieces were detachable...it was the stones/lenses/interpreters that were later referred to as UandT.

Yes, after 1833.  Before that there is no record of Joseph or anyone else referring to them as the Urim & Thummim, IIRC.

[ALarson]

I'm only suggesting that when you conclude from a few recollections that you have a definitive understanding of what transpired throughout, you may well be like the six blind men of Indostan, each of whom touching only a small portion of an elephant determined that he had a full image of the elephant. One concluded the elephant was like a snake, another like a tree, another like a spear, and so forth.

I just read in Encyclopedia of Mormonism (and I'm not going to link it, because it's too hard with a mobile device; you can Google it), that William Smith, brother of the Prophet, reported that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim with one hand, leaving the other free to hold the plates. So apparently, at least part of the time, he was looking at the plates.

How much of the translation was done this way? I don't know. I'm guessing you don't either. Again, we're all like the six blind men of Indostan pertaining to this.

Joseph himself said next to nothing about the process of translation. Maybe that's because he didn't want people obsessing over it -- like the folks here on this thread are doing.

I think the analogy of the elephant really doesn't fit here.  We do have several eyewitnesses to the translation making very similar statements (Emma, David Whitmer and Martin Harris).  I agree that there could have been other methods of translation (most especially for the lost 116 pages and even Emma states this).  Did Oliver Cowdery ever make any statements about the translation process describing it?

 

I am also curious to see the statement from William Smith, so CFR on that.  (I'd really like to read it, and have it for my own collection of quotes, so thanks in advance.) 

 

I tried to google Encyclopedia of Mormonism along with William Smith and Urim & Thummim.  Do I need to download the Encyclopedia?  If so, I don't mind doing that.

 

Here is one thing that came up with my search:

 

William Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith, gives a more detailed description of these instruments, although he does not give any details as to the source of his knowledge:

 

The Urim and Thummim were set in a double silver bow which was twisted into the shape of a figure 8, and the two stones were placed literally between the two rims of the bow.  At one end was attached a rod which was connected with the outer edge of the right shoulder of the breast-plate.  By pressing the head a little forward, the rod held the Urim and Thummim before the eyes much like a pair of spectacles.  A pocket was prepared in the breast-plate on the left side immediately over the heart.  When not in use the Urim and Thummim was placed in the pocket, the rod being of just the right length to allow it to be deposited.  This instrument could, however, be detached from the breast-plate when away from home, but Joseph always used it in connection with the breast-plate when translating, as it permitted him to have both hands free to touch the plates.  The instrument was too large for Joseph's eyes: they must have been used by larger men. (Saints Herald, March 9, 1932, p. 258)

 

Edited May 3, 2015 by ALarson

[Calm]

AL, you forgot links with your sources...

[ALarson]

AL, you forgot links with your sources...

Sorry!

 

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/42tlx0cc/THE%20RELATIONSHIP%20OF%20THE%20INTERPRETERS%20TO%20THE%20RECORD%20OF%20THE%20BROTHER%20OF%20JARED.htm?n=0

 

Which other sources would you like the links for?  I'll look those up for you too

 

(The witness statements are in several sources online, but I'll post some if you'd like.)

Edited May 3, 2015 by ALarson

[Calm]

For myself, I just cut a bit of the quote to look for it...but am suggesting for others who are using a small device.  I would suggest the original source if possible and if not (due to temple content or something that breaks the rule...remember it is a site that has the content anywhere on it rather than just the page that links to it), something that provides enough info on where to find it.

[ALarson]

I get what you're saying, calmoriah and I'll try to do that in the future.

 

Here are the sources for the witness statements:

 

Emma's quote:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Could_Joseph_have_used_a_Bible_during_and_simply_dictated_from_it_during_Book_of_Mormon_translation%3F

 

2nd Emma quote:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Urim_and_Thummim

 

David Whitmer quote:

http://en.fairmormonevidence.org/Source:Whitmer:Mormon_Relics:The_Sunday_Inter-Ocean:17_Oct._1886:a_strange_oval-shaped,_chocolate-colored_stone...should_serve_the_same_purpose_as_the_missing_urim_and_thummim

 

2nd David Whitmer quote:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method/1846-1900

 

Martin Harris quote:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method/1846-1900

 

Michael Morse quote:

https://books.google.com/books?id=680cn0KpjVMC&pg=PR13&lpg=PR13&dq=%22%22When+Joseph+was+translating+the+Book+of+Mormon,+he,%22+%22Michael+Morse%22&source=bl&ots=OmwOGcCHeR&sig=Q-BOF60poh_NRgWy-WpsiQUl9f8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_1ZGVYy8GsXQtQWYmoCQAQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22%22When%20Joseph%20was%20translating%20the%20Book%20of%20Mormon%2C%20he%2C%22%20%22Michael%20Morse%22&f=false

[Calm]