First Elder Perry, Now Elder Scott

[CCRW]

I suppose by that standard all donations to a church organization would need to be deducted from all charitable giving since churches, in your view, are not humanitarian aid.  

 

some do have transparency, showing their cost of operations verses what is given to humanity.  I assume many need only stay afloat verses building empires

[mormonnewb]

And only one PhD (David Bednar). Instead, we currently have a church president who served as an enlistedman in the U.S. Navy, got a baccalareaute in business management, served as an advertising executive, and then managed Deseret News Press; one of his counselors is a former jet fighter pilot turned commercial airline pilot (who became the chief pilot for the company); other members of the Twelve include a former Chicago law professor who became a law school dean, then a university president, and finally a state supreme court justice; a couple more university presidents, one of whom was LDS Commissioner of Education; a noted heart surgeon; another served as an enlistedman in the USMC in the Far East, completed a baccalareaute in business at Utah State Agricultural College, and then worked in retail; the current president of the Twelve served in the U.S. Army Air Corps in WW II in the Far East, later obtaining an Ed doctorate from BYU, then taught for CES; another law school grad became law clerk to federal Judge John Sirica throughout the Watergate proceedings, before a distinguished legal career, but he also served as a Captain in the U.S. Army Reserve; etc.

Most of them came from very humble beginnings, worked very hard, and have some noteworthy achievments to their credit. Unlike Hugh Nibley, none was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

I was not attempting to say that the Brethren didn't EARN their status. My point is that they earned it in the same way that a corporate CEO earns his status -- educational credentials, measurable achievements, etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's certainly one way for HF to call His anointed. It's just not the way he called Moses, David, Daniel, etc. But on the other hand, it's not dissimilar to His calling of, say, Nehemiah or even Joseph (men who had shown some secular success).

[mnn727]

perhaps we should look beyond the few families of Mormon royalty and expand the field of possible candidates for leadership at the senior level.  we should also decide what we want this organization to be. a church or a high end real estate investment firm.  currently we have leaders with professional degrees and the focus is on business and major investments in malls, hotels, land in Florida, etc.  much more money has in these efforts than into into humanitarian efforts.   i think it would be nice to see a change.

Pres Uchtdorf part of the "few families of Mormon royalty"? How about Elders Holland, Bednar, Nelson, etc

[Duncan]

I hope for the best for all involved with Elders Perry and Scott

[ALarson]

Pres Uchtdorf part of the "few families of Mormon royalty"? How about Elders Holland, Bednar, Nelson, etc

I have read that all of the past Prophets and apostles have been related through bloodline or marriage and some have even included the current group (other than President Uchtdorf and Elder Bednar).  I'd love to see where someone has actually traced their genealogy and connected them, if that's true.

 

IIRC, Quinn did trace the past ones and wrote about it.  But I don't know how current that is.

 

I'm not overly concerned about it, but maybe some are?

Edited April 25, 2015 by ALarson

[ALarson]

Here's this written by someone who claims to have looked at the genealogy and discussed what Quinn wrote:

 

How does the current Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles measure up? 100% of them are related in some way to current or former general authorities of the LDS Church. In the top 2 leading quorums – consisting of 15 men (The First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles), five of these men are directly related to each other. Four are related to each other by marriage. Four are directly related to former LDS Presidents. Five are directly related to former apostles. Two are married to wives who are direct descendants of former presidents. Five are married to wives who are directly related to former apostles. Seven are married to wives who are relatives of current general authorities or of their wives. The only apostle who has no blood ties to any other general authority is Apostle Richard G. Scott. But, true to form, his wife is related to several current general authorities and even descends from a former LDS apostle.

Addendum: On 2 October 2004, President Gordon B. Hinckley presented Dieter F. Uchtdorf and David A. Bednar to the LDS Church as new apostles following the deaths of David Haight and Neil Maxwell earlier in the year. I have been unable to ascertain any extended family ties to current or past LDS General Authorities for either of these men or their wives. On 6 October 2007, Quentin L. Cook was presented as a new apostle after the death of James Faust. Elder Cook and his wife both have multiple ties to current and past General Authorities, including former President Spencer W. Kimball, former Apostle Heber C. Kimball, and former Presiding Bishop Edward Hunter.

[Rain]

I have read that all of the past Prophets and apostles have been related through bloodline or marriage and some have even included the current group (other than President Uchtdorf). I'd love to see where someone has actually traced their genealogy and connected them, if that's true.

IIRC, Quinn did trace the past ones and wrote about it. But I don't know how current that is.

I'm not overly concerned about it, but maybe some are?

When my parents were in the military they became close to a bunch of other military friends over the years. At one point they discovered they were related 8th cousins, once removed.

My husband is related to one of the apostles, not anything close and we have never met him. They just share a common ancestor and name. Both families have pioneer stock in them.

Funny thing. My family is much more recent to the church on both sides. We did the famous common ancestor thing on family search. I am more closely related to this apostle than DH is. We never would have guessed.

I suspect that until you get into non European ancestry that you will find a lot of people related.

[JLHPROF]

We have been too long without a caustic and sarcastic apostle. I am a shoo in.

 

We need a new J. Golden Kimball.  (Yes, I know he wasn't an apostle).

Heck, I'd settle for a new Jedediah M. Grant.

[ALarson]

We need a new J. Golden Kimball.  (Yes, I know he wasn't an apostle).

Heck, I'd settle for a new Jedediah M. Grant.

I love reading J. Golden Kimball quotes!

 

Jedediah M. Grant, not so much.  

 

Speaking of J. Golden Kimball quotes (and leaders being related), here's one that I laughed over:

 

“Some people say a person receives a position in this church through revelation, and others say they get it through inspiration, but I say they get it through relation. If I hadn't been related to Heber C. Kimball I wouldn't have been a d**n thing in this church.” 

 

 

We could do an entire thread on his quotes

[JLHPROF]

I love reading J. Golden Kimball quotes!

 

Jedediah M. Grant, not so much.  

 

No surprise there. 

[Avatar4321]

We have been too long without a caustic and sarcastic apostle. I am a shoo in.

well, the church is true. If God calls you, it will still be true.

[ALarson]

No surprise there. 

lol

 

However, I do like his boldness and how he definitely did not mince words.  He wasn't afraid to speak his mind nor did he worry about offending anyone.  I like that.

[Calm]

I wonder if tithing was removed from the numbers (as it does not go to humanitarian aid) what that would look like?

 

IIRC even once all church donations are removed, LDS stil rate highest though on parallel with faiths that are high.

 

However, I may be confusing in volunteerism...having just woken up the brain is foggy.

[Calm]

Family Search's Relative finder has me related to a ton of leaders....does that make me apostle material?

Edited April 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[JLHPROF]

Family Search's Relative finder has me related to a ton of leaders....does that make me apostle material?

 

Someone told me an epistle is a female apostle...

[Calm]

Anyone born in Utah prior to 1950 (Bednar's the youngest, birth year is '52) when membership only really began to get started is likely to be interrrelated with each other big time.

Edited April 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 I assume many need only stay afloat verses building empires

Given the missionary intent of the Church, at this point, with great growth occuring outside of the higher economic level areas, that "empire" is going to come in handy providing so that the needs of fast growing areas will be able to get their own buildings and resources even if the local members are not able to provide enough income to sustain it.

 

For example, I have a nephew in the Marshall Islands where they take sleep in rotation because there is not enough room in the homes, where furniture is cardboard boxes to keep them off the dirt, where the latest fad that just hit the kids is jump roping, not texting.  Even if they had a full size ward with full tithe payers they could not contribute enough to build and maintain a typical church building.  (they won't get one for awhile, given the environment but I have heard plenty of reports of growth in other areas where a more conventional building will be very appropriate).  Building are continuing being built as fast as they can be and costs are going up so the money needs to come from somewhere and tithing increase due to increase membership seems unlikely to be able to be the only factor needed.  From what I heard here and there over the years, many governments in such areas are relatively comfortable with dealing with LDS leaders because they know there will be strong ties to a strong, financially stable, central organization.

 

Membership does tend to contribute to upward mobility in a society, but that is a long term change, not quickly enough to support immediate building growth.

 

Investments will be able to maintain steady and gradually increasing income in order to support the needed building of chapels and temples outside Europe, the States, Canada and other more highly developed areas.

[ALarson]

Anyone born in Utah prior to 1950 (Bednar's the youngest, birth year is '52) when membership only really began to get started is likely to be interrrelated with each other big time.

I agree.  And, I think it was entirely natural to keep it in the family most especially in the early days of the church.  I'd imagine they were more closely related then than any of them are today. Brigham Young's sons, Heber C. Kimball's son, etc. 

 

But many still love a good conspiracy theory.

Edited April 25, 2015 by ALarson

[CCRW]

maybe I have false impressions of a financial kingdom (malls, condo's, land, businesses), separate from a church resources kingdom (churches, temples), separate from humanitarian aid which don't mix/overlap.

 

Robert's information shows this pretty clearly I believe.  If I was seeing rib-eye steaks being handed out to the homeless on SLC Streets, or even hamburger from those ranches from Bishops Storehouses, maybe I'd have a softer view of this.

Edited April 25, 2015 by CCRW

[Sleeper Cell]

maybe I have false impressions of a financial kingdom (malls, condo's, land, businesses), separate from a church resources kingdom (churches, temples), separate from humanitarian aid which don't mix/overlap.

 

Robert's information shows this pretty clearly I believe.  If I was seeing rib-eye steaks being handed out to the homeless on SLC Streets, or even hamburger from those ranches from Bishops Storehouses, maybe I'd have a softer view of this.

And I had a false impression that this thread was about expressing humanitarian concern for Elder Perry and Elder Scott as they struggle with their medical challenges -- not about casting aspersions on them and their brethren for not being humanitarian enough to suit you.  Or something like that.

[JLHPROF]

I agree.  And, I think it was entirely natural to keep it in the family most especially in the early days of the church.  I'd imagine they were more closely related then than any of them are today. Brigham Young's sons, Heber C. Kimball's son, etc. 

 

But many still love a good conspiracy theory.

 

There is something to be said for the connection between birthright and priesthood keys.  Not that the apostles are limited to a family line, but that there is a reason why it appears that way.

[CCRW]

And I had a false impression that this thread was about expressing humanitarian concern for Elder Perry and Elder Scott as they struggle with their medical challenges -- not about casting aspersions on them and their brethren for not being humanitarian enough to suit you.  Or something like that.

 

I'm a day late to this conversation.  Sunstoned and Robert started this on Page 1 and it continued through page 2.  The OP degraded to two conversations as far as I can tell.  One on the financial aspects of the leadership and the other on leadership genealogy.

[Calm]

maybe I have false impressions of a financial kingdom (malls, condo's, land, businesses), separate from a church resources kingdom (churches, temples), separate from humanitarian aid which don't mix/overlap.

 

Robert's information shows this pretty clearly I believe.  If I was seeing rib-eye steaks being handed out to the homeless on SLC Streets, or even hamburger from those ranches from Bishops Storehouses, maybe I'd have a softer view of this.

 

I think leadership saw what happened in the past when the Church expanded rapidly in buildings without the infrastructure in place to support it and over the decades have made adjustments to prevent that from happening again even if dire need was there (instead of primarily a desire to expand and provide the same level of facilities even for areas of very low density of membership).  My understanding is it went into significant debt.  I don't think it would require even inspiration to project that eventually such a need would arise in the Church.  IMO, this is likely to happen again even for the most basic of building of programs of chapels for members to meet in, basic teaching needs, missionary support for missionaries who do not have the ability to pay for themselves nor does their local ward, basically where tithing alone won't be able to cover church/religious/missionary costs and with inspiration it would be that much clearer imo.  

 

I have no clue how much the Church has depended on contributions from the business side to the charitable side in the past (beyond the usual of providing work for members who then don't need to depend on welfare or church aid as well as are able to contribute to church efforts themselves), but I predict that in the future these investments are going to keep growth sustained rather than having to slow down to the point of having to suffer because of the shift in membership to lower income levels as it spreads more fully into countries that are not fully developed economic areas.  There will likely be inconveniences such as adding an additional ward to buildings before building another one in areas of high density (heard rumours, reliable source, but have heard it before so don't know) and possibly having wards grow larger before splitting to keep costs down, but given the extensive missionary work I know of in less economically developed areas and I likely know only a little of what is involved, I see it as high probability if the world stays relatively constant or goes downhill.

 

I think there is wisdom in having older leadership at higher levels because long term projects (such as worldwide temple building, business investments to support the financial stability of the Church and make it possible for there to be little issue of cash flow even in bad years because of previous years wise budgeting and dispersement) that are intended to come to fruit decades or even a century or two later can be undertaken, plus the level of companionship that exists with such long relationships would tend to diminish the need to focus one's attention on standing out from the crowd, leaving an unusual personal legacy rather than working together towards the good of the overall group that inlcudes one's children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren.

 

It might even discourage group think because one does not have to be afraid of being taken the wrong way, the trust is there so others will feel safe to disagree, etc.  (It may encourage group think by not having a lot of fresh input, but this could be balanced with seeking input from others and helping them feel secure in offering it....Sharon Eubank talks about her own experience in the FM talk where her disagreement was not shot down but seriously engaged in one of the counclls she was in).

 

Sorry for taking it off topic...but I did tie it into how I see older leadership, life terms even as very valuable in an organization that is not about turning out a profit at the end of the day, but about being there for the leaders' great, great descendants as much as they are there for their immediate families....along with all the others that have become part of the community in the decades of their leadership.

Edited April 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[CCRW]

Cal,

 

It's really just one of two stumbling blocks (this and correlation) which I know I must overcome to be able to go back and not be disruptive.  Some how moving beyond what I see and believe.  I'm sorry you guys are the brunt of my reactions of my seeing this issues presented and working on backing off poking the nest but instead bring some worth.  Better you guys than tomorrow ... right??

 

eta:

 

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

 

Who needs to rely on the arm of flesh to bring forth Zion?

Edited April 25, 2015 by CCRW

[Calm]

 

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

 

Who needs to rely on the arm of flesh to bring forth Zion?

 

Jesus relied on miracles to produce food very few times and besides calming the storm, I don't know he used any miracles save foreknowledge for shelter.  OTOH, he directed his people to fish for their livelihood and told them to go get help from those who could afford it.  For the last supper, his miracle was a foreknowledge of someone who would be willing to provide it, not out of the rocks.

 

Missionaries of the early LDS church were not to pray that food would appear before them or to miraculously expand one morsel of bread into a week's worth of food, but were to be dependent on men and women who were willing to share of their own, including members of the Church.

 

In my view, the Lord has left us without direct leadership (in the sense that he isn't currently walking among the general population) and chosen to use prophets not so he can provide daily miracles to feed and shelter us and do all his work, but so that we can participate to the fullest of our abilities in aiding him providing for his Church and for others....not because he is lazy or can't do miracles, but because it helps us grow to be responsible and caring of others as well as our own needs.

Edited April 25, 2015 by calmoriah