why me Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 From the lds website: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-news-conference-on-religious-freedom-and-nondiscrimination?cid=HPTU012715648 I think that all this sounds very christlike. Good for the lds.
DBMormon Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) For those who care hear is my thoughts. This is from a facebook post I wrote this AM The one sentence that was said at least twice and I think 3 times was " "We claim for everyone the God-given and Constitutional right to live their faith according to the dictates of their own conscience, without harming the health or safety of others." " this seems to draw a line of agreeing that policies and perhaps even Doctrines would have to change if harm is done to the public. While debatable what the reach is by church policies and doctrine, it is at least possible for gay teen homelessness and gay teen suicide in the church to be related to this issue. That seems to be harmful to the public health. If that is the case and if one could "prove" they are directly connected, I think the Church here agrees they must be changed (If I read their own words correctly). How all that plays out over the next 10 to 50 years?..... who knows. I am in conflict. I have never publicly stood against the Church's Doctrine on this and won't here either but If permiotted to share my feelings they are as follows. If God's Doctrine really is that being acting on one's attraction to the same gender is "sin" and at the same time I could not live what is required of them if the the same directive applied to me (live a life choosing to not be intimate with the gender your attracted to no matter whether legal etc...), I am left unable to publicly admonish a gay person to live God's law. Add that to the very strong possibility that LDS gays are being kicked out of their homes at a higher rate than straight members and are committing suicide at a suspected higher rate and I simple am left struggling to defend the Church position (also not definitively saying its wrong or that it must change). I am left with no viable path to be both supportive of human beings and the value of life (as my conscience dictates) as well as be faithful and hence with that I am full of tension. I will say this though in regards to gays leaving the church. Stats say 70% of gays leave the LDS faith and we seem in shock, but the reality is almost 70% of all members leave the faith in some way (in terms of activity or membership - 34-37% activity rate plus names removes, excommunicated, etc...) Edited January 28, 2015 by DBMormon
DBMormon Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 And since I was given permission yesterday to personally support same sex marriage outside the church.... I do What does the LDS Church think of members who back same-sex marriage? Below are Elder Christofferson's comments"There hasn't been any litmus test or standard imposed that you couldn't support that if you want to support it," Christofferson said, "if that's your belief and you think it's right."Any Latter-day Saint can have a belief "on either side of this issue," he said. "That's not uncommon."Problems arise only when a member makes "a public, sustained opposition to the church itself or the church leaders and tries to draw others after them," he said, and that support swells into "advocacy."http://www.sltrib.com/…/2108746-155/we-all-can-be-more-civil
why me Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) And since I was given permission yesterday to personally support same sex marriage outside the church.... I do I am not sure if the church is behind same sex marriage. If so, we will need to rewrite the eternal marriage idea and begin to allow gay sealings. I don't think that the lds church is an advocate for same sex marriage. But of course I suppose that one can support it but not advocate for it within the church. With your analysis that you posted, I am surprised that there is still a lds church. Something is missing somewhere in your above post. Edited January 28, 2015 by why me
Nofear Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 I am not sure if the church is behind same sex marriage. If so, we will need to rewrite the eternal marriage idea and begin to allow gay sealings. I don't think that the lds church is an advocate for same sex marriage. But of course I suppose that one can support it but not advocate for it within the church. With your analysis that you posted, I am surprised that there is still a lds church. Something is missing somewhere in your above post.It is entirely possible that the Church could take a stance tolerating civil marriage for same sex couples without any doctrinal change to eternal marriage and sealings. PS: For the record, I'm not for same sex marriage. It isn't something that I think would be productive to society as a whole. Live together if they want and be afforded all civil protections proper citizens of a country. But that doesn't necessarily mean affording those unions the incentives of marriage that society has deemed worthy and prudent for heterosexual marriages. 1
Sky Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2108746-155/we-all-can-be-more-civil When asked in an interview if the Utah-based faith would apologize for its harsh rhetoric of the past, LDS apostle D. Todd Christofferson said, "The doctrines, values and beliefs all related to this haven't changed and won't, but I think we can express things better." Christofferson, whose brother is gay, was involved in creating an LDS Church-sponsored website, mormonsandgays.org, which includes video clips of Mormon leaders as well as LGBT members and their families promoting compassion and understanding toward gays, and encouraging everyone to be "disciples of Christ." Not that many in the 15 million-member Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints know about the site, Christofferson acknowledged, despite numerous news stories about it."It has been underutilized," he said. But the church is working on "refreshing and expanding the site in the next few months," he said, and the updated version will be more broadly advertised.The hope is that LGBT Mormons will feel valued by their religious community, he said, "so they don't feel they have to find fulfillment elsewhere, or that they can't find love, brotherhood and sisterhood within the church." ….so nice to hear! Edited January 28, 2015 by Sky 1
Sky Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 "Nothing is achieved if either side resorts to bullying, political point scoring or accusations of bigotry." -Elder Jeffrey R. HollandCompromises, no doubt, will be required."Neither side may get all that they want," the LDS Church said in its news release. "We must all learn to live with others who do not share the same beliefs or values." Such welcoming words of reconciliation and reason on this polarizing debate. I hope people listen. 2
DBMormon Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 I am not sure if the church is behind same sex marriage. If so, we will need to rewrite the eternal marriage idea and begin to allow gay sealings. I don't think that the lds church is an advocate for same sex marriage. But of course I suppose that one can support it but not advocate for it within the church. With your analysis that you posted, I am surprised that there is still a lds church. Something is missing somewhere in your above post.Not that they are behind it but rather they see support of it as outside it's scope for what is a line in the sand for church discipline. big difference
Boanerges Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 It is entirely possible that the Church could take a stance tolerating civil marriage for same sex couples without any doctrinal change to eternal marriage and sealings. PS: For the record, I'm not for same sex marriage. It isn't something that I think would be productive to society as a whole. Live together if they want and be afforded all civil protections proper citizens of a country. But that doesn't necessarily mean affording those unions the incentives of marriage that society has deemed worthy and prudent for heterosexual marriages. I was opposed to SSM until after it became legal in my state. I see no difference in society at all. There is very literally no appreciable change in the way things are now as opposed to the way they were before. I support SSM, and I support the church recognizing civil unions or something along that line. Honestly, I don't see how the church can say they understand a person was actually born with SSA (or at least can't change) yet say acting on it is a sin. I believe in the law of chastity for straights and gays - but I also believe gays should be allowed to legally (not necessarily religiously) marry - just like everyone else. It's no skin off my nose, "let them worship how, where, or what they may." 1
DBMormon Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Does everyone here agree that this same stance held up yesterday was not a stance we undertook 20 years ago or earlier? And hence regardless of where it leads and obviously we will all disagree on that, the Church has shifted on this issue?
Rob Osborn Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Its no wonder that 1/3 the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer. That same battle wages today of blurring the lines between right and wrong and evil making its case for legitimacy.
Buckeye Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Does everyone here agree that this same stance held up yesterday was not a stance we undertook 20 years ago or earlier? And hence regardless of where it leads and obviously we will all disagree on that, the Church has shifted on this issue? For me, the obvious thing is that the church is now playing defense rather than offense. I don't expect the church to get involved in any more political efforts to limit LGBT rights. The attention will be to protecting religious freedom and, especially, fostering harmony within the ranks of the church. That's the real battle now. If members are allowed to support civil SSM, and significant numbers begin to do so, how does that affect church harmony and governance? Do we stop talking about eternal families because the discussion leads to contention over SSM? Do we allow members to serve as missionaries and teaching callings if they do not have a testimony of this church teaching? It will be interesting to see. May we all have compassion and judge how we want to be judged. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Does everyone here agree that this same stance held up yesterday was not a stance we undertook 20 years ago or earlier? And hence regardless of where it leads and obviously we will all disagree on that, the Church has shifted on this issue?No, the church used to teach that discrimination was OK, that you could deny some one a job if they are gay? More wishful thinking. Good grief you guys are really straining here. Edited January 28, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
Rob Osborn Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 For me, the obvious thing is that the church is now playing defense rather than offense. I don't expect the church to get involved in any more political efforts to limit LGBT rights. The attention will be to protecting religious freedom and, especially, fostering harmony within the ranks of the church. That's the real battle now. If members are allowed to support civil SSM, and significant numbers begin to do so, how does that affect church harmony and governance? Do we stop talking about eternal families because the discussion leads to contention over SSM? Do we allow members to serve as missionaries and teaching callings if they do not have a testimony of this church teaching? It will be interesting to see. May we all have compassion and judge how we want to be judged.The church will move to reinforce traditional teachings of marriage between man and woman. It must. 1
DBMormon Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 No, the church used to teach that discrimination was OK? More wishful thinking. Good grief you guys are really straining here.find me a quote where they herald gay right prior to 1994/early 95?
DBMormon Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 The church will move to reinforce traditional teachings of marriage between man and woman. It must.and if it doesn't?
Rob Osborn Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 and if it doesn't?It will. You may have a hope they will move away from teaching truth but God's church will move to strengthen teachings of the truth. That fundamental truth is "family".
Rob Osborn Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 The move by the church yesterday was to get the ball rolling to institute new laws that protect individuals and churches right to have opinion against immoral beliefs and practices without fear of losing their job, being called a bigot, etc. 2
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 The move by the church yesterday was to get the ball rolling to institute new laws that protect individuals and churches right to have opinion against immoral beliefs and practices without fear of losing their job, being called a bigot, etc.This seems to be lost on a lot of people. There were calls for not being discriminate if you are gay to not give them a job but there was also talks that because you hold position X you should also not lose your job or be ostracized.
california boy Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Its no wonder that 1/3 the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer. That same battle wages today of blurring the lines between right and wrong and evil making its case for legitimacy. Also keep in mind that the third that was kicked out of heaven wanted to take away agency and force everyone to follow what they thought was God's laws.
stemelbow Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Also keep in mind that the third that was kicked out of heaven wanted to take away agency and force everyone to follow what they thought was God's laws. It makes ya wonder if principle is important, rather than the law. If God can command to go against the law (Nephi's murdering Laban may come to mind), then one must wonder if it's better to go with your heavily considered opinion (soaked in personal inspiration with the Holy Ghost) then to go with what another tells you, even if that other is the Church. Im much more determined to understand how to be good rather than to follow someone else who tells me how to be good. 1
carbon dioxide Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Also keep in mind that the third that was kicked out of heaven wanted to take away agency and force everyone to follow what they thought was God's laws.The Church has not sought to force gays to do what the Church wanted or put them in prison or kill them. It simply stood up for a standard that has been true throughout the world for thousands of years. There are other issues that this would apply like prostitution, legalization of all drugs ect. One can make good arguments of why those things should be legal but that does not mean one should accept them to be good or right. The Church has a responsibility to stand for Christ at all times and all places. Society may change and accept things that they have never accepted before but the Church can't do that. Right and wrong is not determined by the decade or century one lives it or how popular something is. Right and wrong as determined by the Church can only come from one source and that is God who neither cares about public opinion polls or that it is the year 2015.
tonie Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Whining combined with lip service paid to "freedom of religion," which, apparently, to them means "you are free to practice your religion as long as you keep it shut up within closed doors and don't try to express it or act on it out in public."yep, i am positive that is what the Brethern had in mind when they instructed and called for respectfull dialogue. Edited January 28, 2015 by tonie
tonie Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 what is tragically ironic about these discussions, on this board, is that so many participants cry religious freedom and lambast the so-called oppression by the governmet...The tragic irony is the same poeple whailing about the government, would use to government to legislate personal religious beliefs
thesometimesaint Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 The Church has not sought to force gays to do what the Church wanted or put them in prison or kill them. It simply stood up for a standard that has been true throughout the world for thousands of years. There are other issues that this would apply like prostitution, legalization of all drugs ect. One can make good arguments of why those things should be legal but that does not mean one should accept them to be good or right. The Church has a responsibility to stand for Christ at all times and all places. Society may change and accept things that they have never accepted before but the Church can't do that. Right and wrong is not determined by the decade or century one lives it or how popular something is. Right and wrong as determined by the Church can only come from one source and that is God who neither cares about public opinion polls or that it is the year 2015. Just because we can legally do something, doesn't mean we should. I have no problem with the Church telling me how to go to Heaven. I do have big problems with the Church pushing laws to put me in jail.
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