mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Well, I am selling the Nehor's Revised Translation of the Triple Combination for $199.99 if you want to see where I think it could be improved.Humor noted and appreciated. One more serious question though, so in the end do you really not feel you have something that is significantly better/clearer than the Bible?
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Humor noted and appreciated. One more serious question though, so in the end do you really not feel you have something that is significantly better/clearer than the Bible? Oh, the Book of Mormon and D&C are much clearer and less error-ridden then the Bible.
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Oh, the Book of Mormon and D&C are much clearer and less error-ridden then the Bible.So why an entire translation? that's a lot of work, you must see something pretty significant wrong..
Robert F. Smith Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 This is a much deeper religious question I feel. Did God create language? If he could reveal anything he wanted, could he do so by choosing words and sentences that would not cause confusion that leads anyone away from himself? I think the answer to both questions is yes. And yes before you call me out, I realize that raises the question of why does the Bible seem to be so confusing to some people. I'm not entirely sure I have answered that question for myself, but I know that the EV system has AN answer to it. God created the Confusion of Tongues, but I'm not sure that any human language can be clear and perfect -- although semanticist S. I. Hayakawa thought that better control of semantics could improve things. This side of some Enochian, angelic language (mediated by the Holy Spirit?), we are unlikely to have perfect communication. 1
smac97 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Just a thought I had as I was studying the scriptures the other day, and more specifically the Book of Mormon. Often times we as a people will scoff at the Protestant view of the Bible as the inerrant and complete Word of God. I'm not sure how often this happens. The beliefs of other religious groups regarding scriptural inerrancy do not figure large in my studies. Are we not guilty at times of being open to errors in that canonical work, but not in the others? Not really. I fear that we treat the Book of Mormon, or the other revelations that we have included in the Standard Works as perfect, complete and whole. I don't think we do. Can you give some specific problematic examples of this? Five will do. What's ironic is that the books themselves do not make that same claim. I'd only "ironic" if Latter-day Saints are habitually or systematically making claims, implied or express, of inerrancy. I don't think we are. The Book of Mormon adds a clause to its preface stating that if there are errors in the book, they are not the errors of God, but man. This leaves ample room to accept an incomplete, imperfect scripture. Agreed. But I don't think this gives us license to disregard The Book of Mormon when countervailing social trends come along. I think this is why we end up with some church members spouting mealy-mouthed nonsense about The Book of Mormon being 19th century fiction, or that it doesn't matter whether The Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. Thanks, -Smac
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) If he could reveal anything he wanted, could he do so by choosing words and sentences that would not cause confusion that leads anyone away from himself? But the meaning of words and how they are understood changes over time so even if at one time they do not cause confusion, how can it be for all time? And how does this take into account all the different translations that use different words with different connotations attached to them? And are you saying that a man who you see as a sinner that can never be perfect can still have a perfect understanding of God's thoughts? Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 But the meaning of words and how they are understood changes over time so even if at one time they do not cause confusion, how can it be for all time?It's a very deep argument. Could he not have made an argument that transcends language and time barriers? He is God after all.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 This is a much deeper religious question I feel. Did God create language? If he could reveal anything he wanted, could he do so by choosing words and sentences that would not cause confusion that leads anyone away from himself? I think the answer to both questions is yes. And yes before you call me out, I realize that raises the question of why does the Bible seem to be so confusing to some people. I'm not entirely sure I have answered that question for myself, but I know that the EV system has AN answer to it. Oh my. Have you ever studied a language? Did you know that many words in English come from Greek, Latin, French, and Germanic languages? Do you know what languages Hebrew came from? Have you studied ANY biblical history or the origins of the Bible? Did you know that Latin has turned into Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romanian and some other minor languages? Did God do all that? Did he change all those languages or did people? Are these languages now in error? Have you ever translated ANY texts whatsoever? Why are we even discussing this? There just seems a huge gap here between the members of the discussion that communication is hopeless.
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Oh my. Have you ever studied a language? Did you know that many words in English come from Greek, Latin, French, and Germanic languages? Do you know what languages Hebrew came from? Have you studied ANY biblical history or the origins of the Bible? Did you know that Latin has turned into Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romanian and some other minor languages? Did God do all that? Did he change all those languages or did people? Are these languages now in error? Have you ever translated ANY texts whatsoever? Why are we even discussing this? There just seems a huge gap here between the members of the discussion that communication is hopeless.You take a very small view of God sir.. I see God as orchestrating all this in the most elaborate of fashions.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 And people have no agency over anything and we are all robots directed by God to make all this work out? Oh I get it. We are all predestined for salvation or not, right?
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 You take a very small view of God sir.. I see God as orchestrating all this in the most elaborate of fashions. Sorry, I think that people can make mistakes and that has nothing to do with God except the fact that he WANTS us to learn by making mistakes. We believe he even set up the fall so we could have choice. I think perhaps we answer questions others have not even thought of asking. 1
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 And people have no agency over anything and we are all robots directed by God to make all this work out? Oh I get it. We are all predestined for salvation or not, right?I realize you don't subscribe to my system, you don't need to keep saying it. I do believe God is orchestrating. It makes sense if you think he has a plan for this world at all. How can he guarantee the world will reach a desired end state, if he is not?
Coreyb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) At the risk of sounding like I'm telling you what you believe again... Sigh.. It is logically reasonable to say that the Bible is prone to more errors than the others, based on how it was transmitted AND translated. Multiple languages, many generations. Side note: Of course, my personal belief is God protected and conveyed exactly what he meant despite all that. If you read about how the others came to us, BOM for example, they sound to ME more like what I would imagine as God breathed. J.S. Covering his face with the hat etc. In other words, it wasn't so much a physical act as a spiritual one. And based on this I personally think it logically follows that they are allowed practically zero errors. Source documents, revealed directly from an unknown language, to our native language (assuming you are american). And not really copied that often. It sounds like an act of God, not man. So to say that humans were involved, sounds like backtracking on what is used by missionaries as a unique benefit of the LDS system.While the transmission of the text seems to have been spiritual and facilitated by God, the text itself does not pretend to be God breathed. It went through a long history of compiling, redacting, editing, abridging, and translating long before JSjr was on the scene. And why couldn't God transmit a human produced book? To me it makes at least as much sense as a myriad of councils deciding on a canon of books(and versions of books) that God himself would choose where He doing it himself. Edited January 19, 2015 by Coreyb 2
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I realize you don't subscribe to my system, you don't need to keep saying it. I do believe God is orchestrating. It makes sense if you think he has a plan for this world at all. How can he guarantee the world will reach a desired end state, if he is not? Oh God is orchestrating all right, but he can do it even accounting for human error in scripture. He knows what we will do you know. He doesn't have to prevent errors, he just provides each of us with the correct interpretation that we individually need. If you need to think scripture is inerrant that's fine, but we don't need that belief. There is no sense arguing about it It's a waste of time.
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 While the transmission of the text seems to have been spiritual and facilitated by God, the text itself does not pretend to be God breathed. It went through a long history of compiling, redacting, editing, abridging, and translating long before JSjr was on the scene. And why couldn't God transmit a human produced book? To me it makes at least as much sense as a myriad of councils deciding on a canon of books(and versions of books) that God himself would choose where He doing it himself.As with everything, there is an alternate way to look at this. You say that the BOM was molded by a "long history," and then re transmitted to us in that same state as it was left. This was an opportunity for God to inspire any divine corrections he wanted, since Joseph didn't speak the language and wouldn't know the difference. You really think he would have been able to resist correcting anything that was wrong at that point?
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Oh God is orchestrating all right, but he can do it even accounting for human error in scripture. He knows what we will do you know. He doesn't have to prevent errors, he just provides each of us with the correct interpretation that we individually need. If you need to think scripture is inerrant that's fine, but we don't need that belief. There is no sense arguing about it It's a waste of time.We agree. The result of saying he knows what we will do is no different than the result of saying he's controlling us. You're not the only person here, I'm sharing ideas with others too, thanks.
Coreyb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 As with everything, there is an alternate way to look at this. You say that the BOM was molded by a "long history," and then re transmitted to us in that same state as it was left. This was an opportunity for God to inspire any divine corrections he wanted, since Joseph didn't speak the language and wouldn't know the difference. You really think he would have been able to resist correcting anything that was wrong at that point?Sure, he is apparently able to resist correcting a lot of things about life on earth that he "could correct". My God is not a neat freak 1
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Sure, he is apparently able to resist correcting a lot of things about life on earth that he "could correct". My God is not a neat freakHe's not? One of the things I admire most about LDS is how neat and orderly everything seems to be on the surface. 1
Freedom Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 He's not? One of the things I admire most about LDS is how neat and orderly everything seems to be on the surface. on the surface? Exactly what do you mean by that?
Coreyb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 He's not? One of the things I admire most about LDS is how neat and orderly everything seems to be on the surface.Stop confusing Mormon Mormons for, Mitt Romney Mormons
mass168 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) on the surface? Exactly what do you mean by that?I said that because apparently I'm not allowed to notice things about word perfect prayers etc. I was trying to make it more general. The organization and orchestration of everything I have ever witnessed in the Church is quite impeccable, that's a true statement. It seems to point to an extemely detail oriented God, just my opinion. Edited January 19, 2015 by mass168
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 He's not? One of the things I admire most about LDS is how neat and orderly everything seems to be on the surface Do insults help your case with your discussing this with "others"? I would say probably not.
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) I realize you don't subscribe to my system, you don't need to keep saying it. I do believe God is orchestrating. It makes sense if you think he has a plan for this world at all. How can he guarantee the world will reach a desired end state, if he is not? A lot depends on what you think that plan actually is. If you see it as simply getting the most people exalted and back with the Father as one, I think you've missed a few steps. To me the Plan is not a map with a road path you follow to the end or get lost along the way, it is the process by which we learn whether or not we want to be exalted or if there is other stuff out there that is more important to us than being part of God's eternal family as his children and once we have learned that (and personally I don't' think that decision is more than barely begun to be made in this lifetime but continues to be explored for eons in the next in all its permuations that we have gone through in mortality as we will have access not only to our own lives and understand all their implications and consequences in ways we never did with our limited mortal sense). I see our life as first our creation of individuals that could express themselves and have communion with each other….that I believe was the primary lesson of our first estate, what it meant to be part of Heavenly Father's family. Some people decided that in itself was worth it, they wanted power and glory and control over others….so they opt out of the system that would never give that to them and switched to trying to screw it up for the rest of us. Birth comes and we are suddenly in a mess of families, no two identical…all variations, shapes and smells available but only a few we know really well here….so I figure we need time later on to learn about those others families and what it means to love that way or this and which way we want to do it. For those who choose the way God loves, to become one with him, the next stage is preparing for exaltation by learning those things we need to learn in order to be strong and intelligent enough to comprehend that of God which was incomprehensible before. And thus the goal of the Plan is achieved, people have learned what is important to them, what type of life and sociality they want to exist in through eternity, they have plenty of examples before them of all types and the consequences and limitations of those types as well as the perfect union of God. They come before God to be judge…he asks the desires of their hearts and grants them those that are righteous even if they are limited and do not bring all back to him by his side in exaltation. That is the desired end state that can be best achieved by leaving life messy and confusing and needing the Spirit to lead us through the potholes, but even providing an option for those who for some reason the Spirit cannot communicate clearly with at this time. A perfect plan takes into account the imperfections of its participants and includes them into the process, in fact without those imperfections, the plan would fail. Perhaps it would help if we talked less about the Plan of Salvation and use the term the Play of Salvation or a little more serious the Salvation Therapy Process. Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah 2
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 It's a very deep argument. Could he not have made an argument that transcends language and time barriers? He is God after all. Something that transcends language and time is outside of language and time. How would you suggest he communicate this argument to us?
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Why are we even discussing this?We are exploring assumptions about language itself and seeing it perhaps a better one is out there…perhaps I will pick up an idea from him to refine my own idea, perhaps he will pick up one from me.
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