Sola Scriptura Mormona

[Calm]

I think perhaps we answer questions others have not even thought of asking.

 

And that is why it may be so hard to some to understand our beliefs.

 

Many of us who have been brought up in the faith and never thought with the Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant or EV variation on those themes, may not realize the questions they have asked themselves so may be missing something big.

 

Then there are those of us who grew up in the LDS faith and begged their friends to tell us their beliefs, their questions they had found answers to and our friends just told us they wanted to go to a movie or in my case if I wanted to get mystical, I could read Tolkien…sigh.  Took the internet to really get into a decent discussion with others, though I have to make one exception for a woman who lent me the Catechism…though she had little time to talk over it with me, if I hadn't had 3DOP to discuss it, I think she would have though.

Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[mass168]

A lot depends on what you think that plan actually is.  If you see it as simply getting the most people exalted and back with the Father as one, I think you've missed a few steps.

 

To me the Plan is not a map with a road path you follow to the end or get lost along the way, it is the process by which we learn whether or not we want to be exalted or if there is other stuff out there that is more important to us than being part of God's eternal family as his children and once we have learned that (and personally I don't' think that decision is more than barely begun to be made in this lifetime but continues to be explored for eons in the next in all its permuations that we have gone through in mortality as we will have access not only to our own lives and understand all their implications and consequences in ways we never did with our limited mortal sense).

 

I see our life as first our creation of individuals that could express themselves and have communion with each other….that I believe was the primary lesson of our first estate, what it meant to be part of Heavenly Father's family.  Some people decided that in itself was worth it, they wanted power and glory and control over others….so they opt out of the system that would never give that to them and switched to trying to screw it up for the rest of us.  Birth comes and we are suddenly in a mess of families, no two identical…all variations, shapes and smells available but only a few we know really well here….so I figure we need time later on to learn about those others families and what it means to love that way or this and which way we want to do it.  For those who choose the way God loves, to become one with him, the next stage is preparing for exaltation by learning those things we need to learn in order to be strong and intelligent enough to comprehend that of God which was incomprehensible before.

 

And thus the goal of the Plan is achieved, people have learned what is important to them, what type of life and sociality they want to exist in through eternity, they have plenty of examples before them of all types and the consequences and limitations of those types as well as the perfect union of God.  They come before God to be judge…he asks the desires of their hearts and grants them those that are righteous even if they are limited and do not bring all back to him by his side in exaltation.

 

That is the desired end state that can be best achieved by leaving life messy and confusing and needing the Spirit to lead us through the potholes, but even providing an option for those who for some reason the Spirit cannot communicate clearly with at this time.

 

A perfect plan takes into account the imperfections of its participants and includes them into the process, in fact without those imperfections, the plan would fail.

 

Perhaps it would help if we talked less about the Plan of Salvation and use the term the Play of Salvation or a little more serious the Salvation Therapy Process.

So do you believe God knows details of which people are going to decide he is the most important thing? Does he have a "number?" Or is it just a fuzzy, meh, some of them will choose me by the end, some wont? 

[Calm]

I see God as orchestrating all this in the most elaborate of fashions. 

But you can very, very rarely get words in different languages that mean the same thing so how does this orchestration lead to one perfect reading per word idea no matter what language that idea is and the word it is attached to with all its different nuances, etc. through all the translations (and couldn't God if he was going to be this elaborate ensure all translations were what he wanted including the JW and JS's Inspired Version?

 

Do you not need to accept that Joseph's Biblical revision is just as God breathed as your favourite Bible version since God is all powerful and desires to perfectly communicate with man?  If not, why not?

 

We have multiple of English translations that don't even use the same words and thus people interpret it differently.  Are these different interpretations what God wants or is there some way people can circumvent that just using the text itself?  and if there is a way solely from the text itself?  Think teaching a group of genius kids without any religious training English and Greek and turn them into great experts, then present them with the most respected Greek translation and for the final project have the kids read and translate it into English completely independently….will it read identically?  will they use words with different definitions and connotations?

Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps it would help if we talked less about the Plan of Salvation and use the term the Play of Salvation or a little more serious the Salvation Therapy Process.

Elder Bednar:

 

Paul taught the Saints in Ephesus that the Savior established His Church “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12–13).

Please note the use of the active word perfecting. As described by Elder Neal A. Maxwell, the Church is not “a well-provisioned rest home for the already perfected” (“A Brother Offended,” Ensign, May 1982, 38). Rather, the Church is a learning laboratory and a workshop in which we gain experience as we practice on each other in the ongoing process of “perfecting the Saints.”

Elder Maxwell also insightfully explained that in this latter-day learning laboratory known as the restored Church, the members constitute the “clinical material” (see “Jesus, the Perfect Mentor,” Ensign, Feb. 2001, 13) that is essential for growth and development. A visiting teacher learns her duty as she serves and loves her Relief Society sisters. An inexperienced teacher learns valuable lessons as he teaches both supportive and inattentive learners and thereby becomes a more effective teacher. And a new bishop learns how to be a bishop through inspiration and by working with ward members who wholeheartedly sustain him, even while recognizing his human frailties.

Understanding that the Church is a learning laboratory helps us to prepare for an inevitable reality. In some way and at some time, someone in this Church will do or say something that could be considered offensive. Such an event will surely happen to each and every one of us—and it certainly will occur more than once. Though people may not intend to injure or offend us, they nonetheless can be inconsiderate and tactless.

You and I cannot control the intentions or behavior of other people. However, we do determine how we will act. Please remember that you and I are agents endowed with moral agency, and we can choose not to be offended.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2006/10/and-nothing-shall-offend-them?lang=eng

Edited January 19, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

We are exploring assumptions about language itself and seeing it perhaps a better one is out there…perhaps I will pick up an idea from him to refine my own idea, perhaps he will pick up one from me.

Best Wishes.

[Calm]

So do you believe God knows details of which people are going to decide he is the most important thing? Does he have a "number?" Or is it just a fuzzy, meh, some of them will choose me by the end, some wont? 

Yes, after all he was with them in the beginning and they grew and developed for eons most likely under his care.  He knows us better than we know ourselves.  We are not doing this so that God can find out where to place us, he knows our desires well enough imo to predict quite well our ultimate end (not sure about the pathway completely).  We are his children, if he is aware of the lilies of the valley and cares for the fall of the sparrow, I have no doubt his awareness of us is much, much deeper and more profound.

 

This is why you should go back to square one and start with studying our basic ideas before you jump into this stuff and miss all the essentials because you don't know the structure that has been built for our beliefs.  It will also help you avoid sounding like you are intentionally trying to offend by trivializing something we wouldn't trivialize.

 

Have you read Gospel Principles yet?  That is a good place to start and goes fast.  There are some other manuals online that can help as well establish a basic overall position but it will still take a lot of work to fill in the details especially if one holds onto their own assumptions when they try to build it and don't try to build it like a LDS would.

 

And try and forget to read it to refute, but rather for understanding.  Forget what the critics say about it and try and figure out what it means to LDS and ask questions over and over again till you are getting more "yes, you are close" or even "right" before you start making leaps and drawing implications about our beliefs yourself.

Edited January 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

So why an entire translation? that's a lot of work, you must see something pretty significant wrong..

 

I am pretty sure Nephi should be spelled Nephe.

[Calm]

 the Church is a learning laboratory

 

I would extend that to the universe, but the Church is a specialized lab for learning about God's interaction with men and women.

[Calm]

As with everything, there is an alternate way to look at this.

 

Then how do you know which way is the way God wants you to look at Bible?

[Calm]

 

The result of saying he knows what we will do is no different than the result of saying he's controlling us. 

 

Only under your assumption that God is your own creator and that you have no eternal component to your identity (is this a correct understanding, if not, please explain).

 

We do not hold that same understanding.  Our assumption that we are eternal beings as God is and we have many eternal attributes (some we may even be aware of in our mortal state) including our own set of eternal desires that come from our identity, not from programming by God.  God may understand our desires being aware of our hearts and minds and thus may anticipate what choices we make, but that does not mean he forced us to make those choices.

[Calm]

I said that because apparently I'm not allowed to notice things about word perfect prayers etc. I was trying to make it more general. The organization and orchestration of everything I have ever witnessed in the Church is quite impeccable, that's a true statement. It seems to point to an extemely detail oriented God, just my opinion.

It is more likely a result of reconcile a high ritual church style---due to having ordinances and a temple and a push to create sacred space everywhere since Joseph's intent was to bring the celestial down to the mundane world as much as possible…thus covenant making which turns mundane to sacred, but especially our homes and churches---with a heritage of very low church.  There is at times in the Church a distain for ritual because they don't understand that the simplest prayers are rituals just like the most elaborate liturgy (perhaps someone more familiar with sacred Christian rituals can come up with one that is seen as quite elaborate but no less sacred than saying the Lord's Prayer itself.  

 

We also follow the admonition of God to care for the poor and the needy, those who mourn, etc.  It is important to keep good records and practices to ensure the fewest of falling through the cracks, that those with needs will be given help, that those with unknown needs will be learned so they are not alone, etc.

[Calm]

Perhaps this can explain why we are an orderly people….we believe we are commanded to be so, there are many more besides this one….do you not believe God is a God of order?:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/109.8?lang=eng#7

7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best bookswords of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

 

 8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house oforder, a house of God;

 9 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord, that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord, that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High—

 

 

[mass168]

"Do you not need to accept that Joseph's Biblical revision is just as God breathed as your favourite Bible version since God is all powerful and desires to perfectly communicate with man?  If not, why not?"

 

No, simply because I believe he was a false prophet. Everything I have said about God-breathed in relation to LDS scripture is to point out that I don't think there is nearly as much room for alternate interpretations (if I am wrong, and he's not a false prophet, and it really did come from God), relative to the Bible.

 

"Yes, after all he was with them in the beginning and they grew and developed for eons most likely under his care.  He knows us better than we know ourselves.  We are not doing this so that God can find out where to place us, he knows our desires well enough imo to predict quite well our ultimate end (not sure about the pathway completely).  We are his children, if he is aware of the lilies of the valley and cares for the fall of the sparrow, I have no doubt his awareness of us is much, much deeper and more profound.

 

This is why you should go back to square one and start with studying our basic ideas before you jump into this stuff and miss all the essentials because you don't know the structure that has been built for our beliefs.  It will also help you avoid sounding like you are intentionally trying to offend by trivializing something we wouldn't trivialize."

 

You should be proud of me Cal. I have read Gospel Principles and I was pretty sure I knew how you would answer that question. But I was ASKING your personal belief on the matter. And I did so because I wanted to say the following.

You may think what you are describing is fundamentally different than predestination, but I don't. You say God is not finding out where to place anyone, then what is he doing? He is just sitting there waiting for his intricate plan to come to fruition, and he's not concerned in the slightest where our individual choices will lead. That is not agency. You can do nothing that he didn't foresee or plan for. If you make any exception whatsoever, you allow for screw ups in his plan. The butterfly effect, have you heard of it? Using his agency, Cal reads the wrong sentence in the wrong book, and all of a sudden, Christ is not coming back anymore.

 

"Only under your assumption that God is your own creator and that you have no eternal component to your identity (is this a correct understanding, if not, please explain).

 

We do not hold that same understanding.  Our assumption that we are eternal beings as God is and we have many eternal attributes (some we may even be aware of in our mortal state) including our own set of eternal desires that come from our identity, not from programming by God.  God may understand our desires being aware of our hearts and minds and thus may anticipate what choices we make, but that does not mean he forced us to make those choices."

 

The RESULT was the key word. We can argue semantics all day about who made what choice (am I choosing to write this right now? Or is God guiding my fingers?). But in the end, we both believe that Christ is coming back. I would just ask, how can God guarantee that, or anything, if you're gonna be so strict about agency? What prevents someone with agency from coming along and screwing up his plan.

 

"Then how do you know which way is the way God wants you to look at Bible?"

By faith sir, by faith.

 

"It is more likely a result of reconcile a high ritual church style---due to having ordinances and a temple and a push to create sacred space everywhere since Joseph's intent was to bring the celestial down to the mundane world as much as possible…thus covenant making which turns mundane to sacred, but especially our homes and churches---with a heritage of very low church.  There is at times in the Church a distain for ritual because they don't understand that the simplest prayers are rituals just like the most elaborate liturgy (perhaps someone more familiar with sacred Christian rituals can come up with one that is seen as quite elaborate but no less sacred than saying the Lord's Prayer itself.  

 

We also follow the admonition of God to care for the poor and the needy, those who mourn, etc.  It is important to keep good records and practices to ensure the fewest of falling through the cracks, that those with needs will be given help, that those with unknown needs will be learned so they are not alone, etc.

 

do you not believe God is a God of order?:"

 

Joseph's intent... Interesting.. Wasn't it God's intent?  

 

I absolutely believe God is a God of order, no scripture needed to convince me. Ironically, that is the reason I said what I did to Coreyb. It was an argument about scripture if you followed it. He claimed "my God is not a neat freak" while insinuating that God did not reveal the corrected version of the BOM to Joseph even though he had the opportunity. As a reminder, I mention word perfect prayers only because that is the clearest practical example in my mind of "God said do it this way, don't screw it up." It betrays a sense of order that causes my mind to recoil in horror when the possibility of errant scriptures is juxtaposed.

Edited January 19, 2015 by mass168

[Michael Sanders]

At the risk of sounding like I'm telling you what you believe again... Sigh..   It is logically reasonable to say that the Bible is prone to more errors than the others, based on how it was transmitted AND translated. Multiple languages, many generations. Side note: Of course, my personal belief is God protected and conveyed exactly what he meant despite all that. 

 

If you read about how the others came to us, BOM for example, they sound to ME more like what I would imagine as God breathed. J.S. Covering his face with the hat etc. In other words, it wasn't so much a physical act as a spiritual one. And based on this I personally think it logically follows that they are allowed practically zero errors. Source documents, revealed directly from an unknown language, to our native language (assuming you are american). And not really copied that often. It sounds like an act of God, not man. So to say that humans were involved, sounds like backtracking on what is used by missionaries as a unique benefit of the LDS system.

This is a common misconception about the Book of Mormon translation - yes it was accomplished by the "gift and power of God" because the original translated text was unknown. But there is a number of ways that unintentional corruptions could have been introduced during the process. Aside from What Joseph saw - he then had to speak it (pronounce correctly)' then the scribe had to hear what he said correctly (hear / interpret), the he had to write it down correctly, it was then copied for the printer and textual error entered in, and then typeset by the printer and printed which introduced another potential process error. Royal Skousen goes over these issues here:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOrN0FV73AsIyT169jUpLNNIM7TNmW_Hm

So spend the afternoon and absorb the mechanics of the process and then understanding will come. As noted, allowing for errors or the "mistakes of men" does not make them untrue or unprofitable for instruction, reproof, learning, etc...And yes God has worked through the ages to preserve and restore records of his dealings with man so that a testimony of his nature and works wouldn't be lost to the world. But that does not make them error free. The same phenomena has occurred with some of Joseph's revelations which underwent emendations before they appeared in 1835. The JST (Inspired Version), D&C, and BOM all have a translation, transmission, and editorial history.

But as Robert rightly notes above, interpretation of the texts may in fact lead to corrupt understandings and faulty paradigms. This was one of the things Nephi probably saw with regard to the Bible in his vision - a loss of original meaning.

Michael Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

[Robert F. Smith]

...................................................................................

You may think what you are describing is fundamentally different than predestination, but I don't. You say God is not finding out where to place anyone, then what is he doing? He is just sitting there waiting for his intricate plan to come to fruition, and he's not concerned in the slightest where our individual choices will lead. That is not agency. You can do nothing that he didn't foresee or plan for. If you make any exception whatsoever, you allow for screw ups in his plan. The butterfly effect, have you heard of it? Using his agency, Cal reads the wrong sentence in the wrong book, and all of a sudden, Christ is not coming back anymore.

..........................................................................................................

The RESULT was the key word. We can argue semantics all day about who made what choice (am I choosing to write this right now? Or is God guiding my fingers?). But in the end, we both believe that Christ is coming back. I would just ask, how can God guarantee that, or anything, if you're gonna be so strict about agency? What prevents someone with agency from coming along and screwing up his plan.

...........................................................................................   

In Mormon theology this is the argument made by Satan, who proposed that no one be lost -- by eliminating risk.  Yet risk is the only option we have of value to make the effort worthwhile.  This applies as well to Jesus (who must be able to fail) as well as to the rest of us.

 

Without real free agency, the process is meaningless, and without beings who are coeternal with God, no free agency is possible.  God cannot control that.  He is a Father who hopes that we all return to Him, but who will inevitably be disappointed by some of us.  He has already accepted that, and has already lost one-third of his children.  He is a God who weeps, but who knows full well that this is the only way to glory for His children.

 

We must not ignore or lack faith in the deeply clever nature of God our Father in all of this.  And we must not confuse the false doctrine of predestination with that of foreordination.  The former is logically impossible, the latter a risky endeavor.  Our Father's faith in us, that we will eventually reach the goal He has set for us, is not the same as a guarantee -- that comes from missing the undistributed middle term, a major error of logic.  To foresee is not to predestine, unless you posit a God who is an Uncaused Cause, and who is Self-Existent and Necessary, and all of us merely Contingent -- as in the systematic theology of Thomas Aquinas, which Mormons reject.

[mass168]

In Mormon theology this is the argument made by Satan, who proposed that no one be lost -- by eliminating risk.  Yet risk is the only option we have of value to make the effort worthwhile.  This applies as well to Jesus (who must be able to fail) as well as to the rest of us.

 

Without real free agency, the process is meaningless, and without beings who are coeternal with God, no free agency is possible.  God cannot control that.  He is a Father who hopes that we all return to Him, but who will inevitably be disappointed by some of us.  He has already accepted that, and has already lost one-third of his children.  He is a God who weeps, but who knows full well that this is the only way to glory for His children.

 

We must not ignore or lack faith in the deeply clever nature of God our Father in all of this.  And we must not confuse the false doctrine of predestination with that of foreordination.  The former is logically impossible, the latter a risky endeavor.  Our Father's faith in us, that we will eventually reach the goal He has set for us, is not the same as a guarantee -- that comes from missing the undistributed middle term, a major error of logic.  To foresee is not to predestine, unless you posit a God who is an Uncaused Cause, and who is Self-Existent and Necessary, and all of us merely Contingent -- as in the systematic theology of Thomas Aquinas, which Mormons reject.

Well I do posit all of the last things, no surprise there, I'm one of them darned apostates. Can I ask, have you ever read Romans 9? Even allowing for small translation errors here and there, how do you personally make sense of the message contained within? Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau, before either of them were born or had done anything? And remember, those two people represent nations, not just themselves. This doesn't sound at all like a God who is leaving anything to be decided outside of himself. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by mass168

[mass168]

This is a common misconception about the Book of Mormon translation - yes it was accomplished by the "gift and power of God" because the original translated text was unknown. But there is a number of ways that unintentional corruptions could have been introduced during the process. Aside from What Joseph saw - he then had to speak it (pronounce correctly)' then the scribe had to hear what he said correctly (hear / interpret), the he had to write it down correctly, it was then copied for the printer and textual error entered in, and then typeset by the printer and printed which introduced another potential process error. Royal Skousen goes over these issues here:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOrN0FV73AsIyT169jUpLNNIM7TNmW_Hm

So spend the afternoon and absorb the mechanics of the process and then understanding will come. As noted, allowing for errors or the "mistakes of men" does not make them untrue or unprofitable for instruction, reproof, learning, etc...And yes God has worked through the ages to preserve and restore records of his dealings with man so that a testimony of his nature and works wouldn't be lost to the world. But that does not make them error free. The same phenomena has occurred with some of Joseph's revelations which underwent emendations before they appeared in 1835. The JST (Inspired Version), D&C, and BOM all have a translation, transmission, and editorial history.

But as Robert rightly notes above, interpretation of the texts may in fact lead to corrupt understandings and faulty paradigms. This was one of the things Nephi probably saw with regard to the Bible in his vision - a loss of original meaning.

Michael Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

And yet, saying this, I'm sure you wouldn't admit there is any doctrinal error contained within, correct? 

[mfbukowski]

Well I do posit all of the last things, no surprise there, I'm one of them darned apostates. Can I ask, have you ever read Romans 9? Even allowing for small translation errors here and there, how do you personally make sense of the message contained within? Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau, before either of them were born or had done anything? And remember, those two people represent nations, not just themselves. This doesn't sound at all like a God who is leaving anything to be decided outside of himself. 

Uh, maybe because we don't think the bible is perfect?

 

Do you think..... at all...just maybe that we have a theme developing here?   Like maybe there is no point in whipping a dead horse about this? 

[thesometimesaint]

And yet, saying this, I'm sure you wouldn't admit there is any doctrinal error contained within, correct? 

 

The Book of Mormon itself allows for the possibility of errors.

SEE Book of Mormon Title Page https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title

 

"...And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

[Freedom]

Well I do posit all of the last things, no surprise there, I'm one of them darned apostates. Can I ask, have you ever read Romans 9? Even allowing for small translation errors here and there, how do you personally make sense of the message contained within? Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau, before either of them were born or had done anything? And remember, those two people represent nations, not just themselves. This doesn't sound at all like a God who is leaving anything to be decided outside of himself. 

There is a huge difference between controlling an outcome and controlling all outcomes. Making a decision on one man does not equal micromanaging down to the placements of molecules. God allows choice, and this includes allowing people to corrupt the scriptures. If he did not allow the corruption of scriptures then the Joseph Smith 'translation' of the bible and the Jehovah Witness bible would never have been allowed. He would not have allowed Israel to fall into apostasy time and time again throughout the old testament. 

[Freedom]

And yet, saying this, I'm sure you wouldn't admit there is any doctrinal error contained within, correct? 

I would say that I am not aware of any doctrinal errors, and I doubt there are any because these books have not gone through the same process that the current bible has. They have not been translated and transcribed over thousands of years. Unlike the Bible, we have the original manuscripts. Take for example the verse 'all scripture is given by inspiration of God'. Many evangelical preachers change this to 'all scripture is God-breathed'. Thus, those who use the latter are of the belief that the bible was not translated correctly and so they change it. Of course, God-breathed means the same thing as inspired, but is sounds so much more glorious. You cannot prove that the current bible reflects the message of the original authors so any argument you might present claiming the bible has no errors is an argument from silence. The argument is a logical fallacy and is based on dogma rather than evidence. 

[mass168]

I would say that I am not aware of any doctrinal errors, and I doubt there are any because these books have not gone through the same process that the current bible has. They have not been translated and transcribed over thousands of years. Unlike the Bible, we have the original manuscripts. Take for example the verse 'all scripture is given by inspiration of God'. Many evangelical preachers change this to 'all scripture is God-breathed'. Thus, those who use the latter are of the belief that the bible was not translated correctly and so they change it. Of course, God-breathed means the same thing as inspired, but is sounds so much more glorious. You cannot prove that the current bible reflects the message of the original authors so any argument you might present claiming the bible has no errors is an argument from silence. The argument is a logical fallacy and is based on dogma rather than evidence. 

What's your feeling on Moroni 8:18? 

[mass168]

There is a huge difference between controlling an outcome and controlling all outcomes. Making a decision on one man does not equal micromanaging down to the placements of molecules. God allows choice, and this includes allowing people to corrupt the scriptures. If he did not allow the corruption of scriptures then the Joseph Smith 'translation' of the bible and the Jehovah Witness bible would never have been allowed. He would not have allowed Israel to fall into apostasy time and time again throughout the old testament. 

So you are willing to admit he makes a decision on each individual man? Additionally, did he create the world or not? That doesn't involve the placements of molecules? 

 

Based on how you describe God, the message that transfers into my mind is that He cannot Guarantee anything. He is pretty confident, but no Guarantees. Doesn't sound like a God worthy of worship to me. 

[mass168]

Uh, maybe because we don't think the bible is perfect?

 

Do you think..... at all...just maybe that we have a theme developing here?   Like maybe there is no point in whipping a dead horse about this? 

So you're willing to throw away that entire passage, Romans 9? Am I hearing you correctly? That's a little more than "translated incorrectly."

Edited January 20, 2015 by mass168

[Freedom]

What's your feeling on Moroni 8:18? 

That God does not change. He is consistent. He is consistent in allowing his children to apostatize, to corrupt his religion, and to do all sorts of nasty things. He steps in when there are those who are willing to follow him. He allowed Israel to be corrupted by the Egyptians and by the priests of Baal. He allowed the Sadducees and pharisees to completely butcher the religion by the time Jesus started preaching. He allowed the wicked Romans to kill off Christians and he allowed the hellenized church to create apostate creeds. all the while, however, he keeps his gospel pure among those who would follow him. He allows muslims, jews, and a whole host of other non-christian religions. But when the time came, he restored his gospel and brought order to his church through modern revelation.