mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 and yet we know paradise cannot be heaven unless Jesus is a liar.if Jesus and the their were already in heaven, why was the resurrection necessary. I will admit you MIGHT have a vaild point.. IF you show the reference for saying he hadn't been to heaven yet. Also still waiting for your explanation of how I took Jacob 2:24 out of context.
ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I am confident in saying the answer is not in temple ordinances, ONLY because the Bible says as much. I don't see that as judging. The bible doesn't say that. It is your corrupt interpretation that says that and "I don't see that as judging."
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Look at the time between death and resurrection. The bible doesn't speak much on it. How much more do we know because of continuing revelation? Or the pre earth life? Or the priesthood and responsibilities of it?Christ has given us so much more to increase our understanding and you want to claim we don't need it or that it's unnecessary. Why? Shouldn't we want everything God is wiling to give us? Shouldn't we hunger and thirst after greater light and knowledge from our Father?
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 The bible doesn't say that. It is your corrupt interpretation that says that and "I don't see that as judging."Fair enough. I will accept that you have probably seen all the verses that support my interpretation and you simply do not see it the same way. Nothing I can do there.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 Why? Shouldn't we want everything God is wiling to give us? Shouldn't we hunger and thirst after greater light and knowledge from our Father?Absolutely, and he has given us quite a bit to chew on in the Bible hasn't he. Have you ever wondered why Christ was called the priest forever after the order of Melchizidek?
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I will admit you MIGHT have a vaild point.. IF you show the reference for saying he hadn't been to heaven yet. Also still waiting for your explanation of how I took Jacob 2:24 out of context.are you that unfamiliar with the scriptures that you don't know where to find the accounts of the resurrection? They are at the end of each of the gospels. This one in particular is in John. I was under the impression that all Christians should be familiar "Hold me not. I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven." its a fairly common scripture in Easter programs.as for Jacob, you were already given the explanation.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 are you that unfamiliar with the scriptures that you don't know where to find the accounts of the resurrection? They are at the end of each of the gospels. This one in particular is in John. I was under the impression that all Christians should be familiar "Hold me not. I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven." its a fairly common scripture in Easter programs.as for Jacob, you were already given the explanation.Very interesting, I will have to think about that. Ok, I didn't feel that I was, but if you say so.
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) it means you don't give a flying squirrel about context.I guess that means he is full of Bullwinkle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_Show The group included Rocket J. Squirrel (Rocky), Oski Bear, Canadian Moose (Bullwinkle), Sylvester Fox, Blackstone Crow, and Floral Fauna. The show in this form was created by Alex Anderson.[15] Bullwinkle's name came from the name of a car dealership in Berkeley, California called Bullwinkel Motors. Mr. Anderson changed the spelling of the name and gave it to his moose, and an unforgettable cartoon character was born.[16] That's for the youngsters out there less I be misunderstood. Edited January 17, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 The Spirit does not change the Gospel, merely our understanding of it, over time, we are the ones being changedSays who? Why aren't you answering me? This is a formal CFR to tell me why we should believe the bible. Board rules dictate that you answer the CFR or retract your statements. 1
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 Says who? Why aren't you answering me? This is a formal CFR to tell me why we should believe the bible. Board rules dictate that you answer the CFR or retract your statements.This was conclusion based on a combination of 2 ideas that seem clear to me in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is still living and active (many verses). At the same time, NEW revelation is extremely limited in these last days because of Christ completing His work (Heb 1:1-2). So the Spirit's role can be seen as guiding believers through a journey to understanding all the scripture already revealed.
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Very interesting, I will have to think about that. Ok, I didn't feel that I was, but if you say so.make it a matter of prayer. And read the Book of Mormon sometime.
Coreyb Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) With the idea of an open Canon and continuing revelation, how do LDS know that they have everything they need to know about the plan of salvation? How do they know that the Gospel will not be entirely different in 1000 years, modified by revelation?I guess we don't. We could end up like those poor Israelites, all those sacrifices, burnt offerings, incense, commandments and prayers to Yahweh for thousands of years, then it turns out all you need is Jesus Edited January 17, 2015 by Coreyb 1
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 I guess we don't. We could end up like those poor Israelites, all those sacrifices, burnt offerings, incense, commandments and prayers to Yahweh for thousands of years, then it turns out all you need is Jesus Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found ? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture ? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Coreyb Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found ? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture ? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. I know you think this scripture is somehow countering my post, but it isn't
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 I know you think this scripture is somehow countering my post, but it isn'tIt should. Salvation has always been by faith and not works? Is that better?
Coreyb Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Sure, but that's not what the scripture is saying
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 Sure, but that's not what the scripture is sayingCool, what do you think it's saying.
carbon dioxide Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Try Jacob 2:24 again, the context is much more general than you are insinuating. They had many wives, that was what the Lord said was abominable. 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.Keep in mind that the Old Testament speaks of a number of men having more than one wife. Moses, Abraham Jacob, and others. Yet Jacob in the Book of Mormon cites the two clear examples of men who took wives they were not authorized taking that being David and Solomon. Jacob does not mention the other men and why is that? Because Jacob is addressing the unauthorized practice of polygamy and David and Solomon where the two examples It is a regulated practice by God. One can practice it only under the direction and limitations established by God. People just can do it because they want to do in on their own. That is what Jacob 2 is all about. Verse 30 makes it clear that unless the Lord specifically commands it with the restrictions given, man is to only have one wife. I also personally believe there are three men in the Book of Mormon who may have had more than one wife and are not condemned for doing so. Amulek says in Alma 10:11 "For behold, he hath blessed mine house, he hath blessed me, and my women, and my children, and my father and my kinsfolk; yea, even all my kindred hath he blessed, and the blessing of the Lord has rested upon us according to the words which he spake." Amulek says "my women" which to me is an odd expression if he was speaking of his daughters or female friends. I also believe that the brother of Jared may have had more than one wife as it says he had 22 children in Ether 6:20. It may be possible that one woman can have 22 kids but more likely he had several wives. And there is Orihah who had 31 kids in Ether 7:1-2 and clearly that requires more than one wife. Edited January 17, 2015 by carbon dioxide
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 It could be that, or it could be that Jacob was just giving a "for instance" and didn't mention the other examples. I still don't see how you get around the wording in 24, sounds so general.
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Well that's not a valid ramification. Don't misunderstand, I believe "faith without works is dead." The issue at hand is additional physical requirements for getting to heaven. It is a theological point. There is no set of specific works (ordinances) that are required by God, It is a matter of the heart. Trusting in works to any degree does cut one off from grace, because it means you're not fully trusting in Jesus, that idea is clear in the NT.If works were truly unnecessary why did baptisms continue with Jesus insisting they were necessary and undergoing the ordinance himself as an example.That idea is clear because all references to this understanding come from Paul castigating believers who still thought their works were sufficient to merit eternal life. He brought out the big guns to tell them they were dead wrong and I suspect we would both agree with him. Only through the Savior can anyone inherit eternal life. Where you err is in taking these statements and trying to divorce them from other letters in the New Testament and the words of the Savior himself demanding certain things be done by his followers including ordinances (baptism and bestowing the Holy Ghost) and certain attitudes and actions which he demanded.The most telling indictment of your interpretation is that none of the early Christians believed it. It showed up as a reactionary gospel opposed to Catholicism with no historical roots. If God wanted this taught he did a terrible job at preserving it. LDS can get around historical Christianity getting it wrong eventually with ease with the apostasy. How do you do it?
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Nevermind, this is a waste of time. Edited January 17, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I know you think this scripture is somehow countering my post, but it isn'ti think he is not capable of understanding these points.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 No the question was why we should believe the bible in the first place. You are using the bible as its own reference and still not saying why you believe it to be true in the first place. You are avoiding the question.You cannot show "ideas in the Bible" to show that the ideas in the bible are correct. You are presuming the bible is correct in the first place, then presuming that the ideas in the bible therefore are correct. First you need to show that the bible is a source of correct ideas.Well technically I'm allowed to avoid the question since this thread got off topic LONG ago.. However.. You are correct. I have faith in certain things. One of those things is that an all powerful God would not let His word become so corrupted as to lead us to hell. This thread was about the LDS system though. How much more difficult is it to have faith in a system that says we will always have living prophets who reveal a collective message over centuries that is nigh impossible to decipher. How long would it take one to even read everything the Prophets have said, much less understand and apply it.
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 You are correct. I have faith in certain things. One of those things is that an all powerful God would not let His word become so corrupted as to lead us to hell.But if that is so why is your theology not found throughout most of the history of Christendom?
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Well technically I'm allowed to avoid the question since this thread got off topic LONG ago.. However.. You are correct. I have faith in certain things. One of those things is that an all powerful God would not let His word become so corrupted as to lead us to hell. This thread was about the LDS system though. How much more difficult is it to have faith in a system that says we will always have living prophets who reveal a collective message over centuries that is nigh impossible to decipher. How long would it take one to even read everything the Prophets have said, much less understand and apply it. Of course your presumption is still that the Bible is the word of God, or else it would not be possible for... an all powerful God would not let His word become so corrupted as to lead us to hell.Your presumption is that God exists, that he can and will send us to hell and that your version of the bible is true. There is no reason to believe that, and you do not understand that. That's ok, don't worry about it. You do not understand revelation. Personal revelation is the key to everything including knowing what revelation is and what it is not. The only possible answer to the question is that you know the bible is true because of personal revelation. If you had said that, then I would know that you understand what revelation is, what prophets are and were, and what the word of God as revealed is. You apparently know none of that.
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