Continuing Revelation

[mass168]

Incidentally that is an interpretation I do not hold and neither do most other Mormons.

 

 

Note it says not to  procrastinate repentance, because we are given this time to PREPARE for eternity.   It does not say we have to get it perfect here- it says PREPARE and DO NOT PROCRASTINATE, and IMPROVE here.

You cannot say you will repent after you die because you will have the same spirit.  It does not say you WILL NOT BE ABLE to repent- it says you don't know if you will be able to or not.   Some will be able to- others may not because it will be much harder there, so we must prepare and get on the road NOW so we are used to the repentance process.

 

 

Those who have died "wicked"- who have not started to repent here-  will be in spirit prison and therefore will be more subject to the spirit of evil- the devil- and that could be your final state if you do not start the repentance process here.

 

We believe that those who have not had an "honest chance" to hear the gospel- as judged by a merciful God- WILL have a "second chance" on the other side, but if you have had an honest chance here, and refused to even try to repent, it is going to be VERY hard to do so, if not impossible.

 

So that is very different from saying "repentance is not possible" for anyone after death.   It does not say that at all.

 

So the thief who had a repentant heart already demonstrated he was on the road to repentance and wanted to believe.  He is one who would have the opportunity to do so in the afterlife, according to the scripture

I'll give it to you, that's a pretty decent workaround. All I know is that when I read this, it still doesn't feel right at all. What I feel in my heart is that every single one of us is procrastinating on our repentance in some way according to the definition of repentance as taught by leaders such as Kimball. Just think of one solitary sin in your life and ask yourself, did I really complete all the steps? When I am honest, the answer is no for a lot of sins. How does one make restitution for every single sin ever committed, for example? What about the sins we have we're not even aware of until they're pointed out to us? If you want to believe in a God that's not trying to "gotcha" on little technicalities like this, the LDS definition of repentance doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

And then, with that in mind, verse 35 lays down the hammer. 

[mass168]

Wouldn't that defeat God's purposes?  Why would he do that?

I don't know, you tell me. It's your system that allows longstanding truths and doctrines to change based on new revelation. 

[rockpond]

I don't know, you tell me. It's your system that allows longstanding truths and doctrines to change based on new revelation.

Well, I don't believe that God would intentionally foil His own purposes. The fault in the system is man's failure to receive or correctly interpret God's communication with us.

[mass168]

Well, I don't believe that God would intentionally foil His own purposes. The fault in the system is man's failure to receive or correctly interpret God's communication with us.

Gotcha, fair enough that's a personal faith. 

[carbon dioxide]

I do trust Christ for my repentance. I'm not making excuses. If anything, I'm asking why LDS feel comfortable excusing themselves from FULLY completing the steps of repentance as prescribed in teachings such as the Miracle of Forgivness. It's not an easy task.. I know that I personally would never be able to complete it. 

Repentance is a great gift that God has given to us and even the weakest, lest capable people are able to get that gift.  We do what we can and God makes up where we fall short. Some steps it might not be possible for us to complete like full restitution.   God knows our hearts and knows whether we did our part.  The hardest part of repentance might be learning to forgive ourselves.  We carry on the guilt long after God has forgiven us.

[Avatar4321]

Try reading the miracle of forgiveness sometime.

[mass168]

Repentance is a great gift that God has given to us and even the weakest, lest capable people are able to get that gift. We do what we can and God makes up where we fall short. Some steps it might not be possible for us to complete like full restitution. God knows our hearts and knows whether we did our part. The hardest part of repentance might be learning to forgive ourselves. We carry on the guilt long after God has forgiven us.

I don't think elder Kimball agrees with you. He teaches you must complete every single step, for every single sin, no excuses. He also teaches that if you slip up in a sin previously repented of (which we all tend to do), all your former guilt and shame returns.

[mass168]

Try reading the miracle of forgiveness sometime.

I have read a lot of it.. Have you? See above.

[carbon dioxide]

I don't think elder Kimball agrees with you. He teaches you must complete every single step, for every single sin, no excuses. He also teaches that if you slip up in a sin previously repented of (which we all tend to do), all your former guilt and shame returns.

Can man keep tabs on all the sins he has committed?  Say somebody goes in active for 5 years and does a whole bunch of different things big and small. Are they really going to remember every sin during that period and repent of each one even though many have been forgotten.  If that is the case the book should not be the "Miracle of Forgiveness" but the "Burden of Forgiveness" or "Its a miracle that anyone can be forgiven."  Yes our former sins return in a sense that if an alcoholic goes back to the booze, his addition comes back in full force.  But he can repent and start again.  When I read that book my take on it was that we have to do our sincere part.  We just can't say sorry and feel nor remorse or say sorry and do it again.  We go through the steps that we are able to do and after that, the Lord takes care of the rest. 

[mass168]

Can man keep tabs on all the sins he has committed?  Say somebody goes in active for 5 years and does a whole bunch of different things big and small. Are they really going to remember every sin during that period and repent of each one even though many have been forgotten.  If that is the case the book should not be the "Miracle of Forgiveness" but the "Burden of Forgiveness" or "Its a miracle that anyone can be forgiven."  

My point exactly. Anyone who has ever been burdened with any sort of sin in their lives has some sense of how this becomes a hopeless burden. You may not personally feel right now that you are in such a tight spot, but that doesn't make it any less real of a struggle. And remember, it might be your turn again soon.  

 

"But he can repent and start again"

 

We as humans always find ourselves restarting do we not? Is this a form of procrastination? I suppose it is a matter of faith yet again, but I answer yes. Therefore, in a nutshell, this is why I reject the LDS doctrine of repentance and choose the EV version, which acknowledges the impossibility of complying with the Miracle of Forgivness, and provides a viable alternative, Christ.

[Freedom]

I know my strengths and weaknesses and I know how I learn. I have read the miracle of forgiveness, but all I know is I try to change and I slip up and commit the same sin over again. I do not look at this as failure, I look at this as success. I will keep having these successes until I master my weaknesses. I am convinced that God recognizes that, for the vast majority of us, it takes a lot of time, practice and experience to overcome habits or characteristics that are detrimental to our progression. 

 

I have read a lot about the repentance process but one thing I have learned, there is no one-size-fits-all in this life. None of us are getting out of this life without unresolved sins. It is the process that matters. It is about acquiring the habit of improving. 

[mass168]

I know my strengths and weaknesses and I know how I learn. I have read the miracle of forgiveness, but all I know is I try to change and I slip up and commit the same sin over again. I do not look at this as failure, I look at this as success. I will keep having these successes until I master my weaknesses. I am convinced that God recognizes that, for the vast majority of us, it takes a lot of time, practice and experience to overcome habits or characteristics that are detrimental to our progression. 

 

I have read a lot about the repentance process but one thing I have learned, there is no one-size-fits-all in this life. None of us are getting out of this life without unresolved sins. It is the process that matters. It is about acquiring the habit of improving. 

You're missing the point. I agree with every single thing you said here, that's the problem. The teachings of the church on repentance do not align with the reality that we experience every time we slip back into any given sin. They say we MUST complete all the steps, one of those steps is to "forsake," which means "don't come back." So the question becomes, why can we not complete the steps even though we try so hard? And where are we left if we can't? I would submit to you that we are left with Alma 34:35.

 

Your heartfelt view is much more EV and much less Miracle of Forgiveness. 

 

Thanks for being honest about your struggles btw. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by mass168

[Freedom]

You're missing the point. I agree with every single thing you said here, that's the problem. The teachings of the church on repentance do not align with the reality that we experience every time we slip back into any given sin. They say we MUST complete all the steps, one of those steps is to "forsake," which means "don't come back." So the question becomes, why can we not complete the steps even though we try so hard? And where are we left if we can't? I would submit to you that we are left with Alma 34:35.

 

Your heartfelt view is much more EV and much less Miracle of Forgiveness. 

There is a difference between procrastinating the day of my repentance and taking longer on some challenges than others. again, it comes down to being in the process of improvement. 

 

Here is an example. There are two people who are addicted to nicotine and they both decide at the same to time quite smoking. As is typical, they stop for a few days and then start up again because the cravings are too hard. They try again after a few months and this time they go for two weeks before succumbing again. Each time they try, they are able to go without for longer and longer. Sadly, however, one of them is killed in a car accident during one of the down times in the recovery process. The other person lives several more years and is finally, after multiple attempts, able ot overcome the addiction. 

 

In my view, neither of them procrastinated the day of their repentance. They were both in the process of repentance; it is just that one of them died before they could fully complete the process in this life. 

[mass168]

There is a difference between procrastinating the day of my repentance and taking longer on some challenges than others. again, it comes down to being in the process of improvement. 

 

Here is an example. There are two people who are addicted to nicotine and they both decide at the same to time quite smoking. As is typical, they stop for a few days and then start up again because the cravings are too hard. They try again after a few months and this time they go for two weeks before succumbing again. Each time they try, they are able to go without for longer and longer. Sadly, however, one of them is killed in a car accident during one of the down times in the recovery process. The other person lives several more years and is finally, after multiple attempts, able ot overcome the addiction. 

 

In my view, neither of them procrastinated the day of their repentance. They were both in the process of repentance; it is just that one of them died before they could fully complete the process in this life. 

Ok, well sounds to me like what you are really saying is you are not dogmatic about the process description, that is the difference between us. The way Miracle of Forgiveness reads to me is that continued failures identify someone who is not truly repentant. If you are "repenting," you have not yet "repented," etc.

 

 ‘Trying is not sufficient, nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin’ (Spencer Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 164) 

 

If I was LDS, I would not be able to find my way around these words of the prophet, based on the reality I experience every day. 

[Freedom]

Ok, well sounds to me like what you are really saying is you are not dogmatic about the process description, that is the difference between us. The way Miracle of Forgiveness reads to me is that continued failures identify someone who is not truly repentant. If you are "repenting," you have not yet "repented," etc.

 

 ‘Trying is not sufficient, nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin’ (Spencer Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 164) 

 

If I was LDS, I would not be able to find my way around these words of the prophet, based on the reality I experience every day. 

If you were LDS, you would accept that this quote is the opinion of one man. Nevertheless, this is true of life. Those who 'try' eating healthy will never be healthy. You have to eat healthy and stop eating junk food. As I said earlier, none of us is getting out of this life without sin. We will have abandoned some sins, but it is not possible to be perfect. There will be some sins we simply could not overcome. 

[mass168]

If you were LDS, you would accept that this quote is the opinion of one man. Nevertheless, this is true of life. Those who 'try' eating healthy will never be healthy. You have to eat healthy and stop eating junk food. As I said earlier, none of us is getting out of this life without sin. We will have abandoned some sins, but it is not possible to be perfect. There will be some sins we simply could not overcome. 

...The opinion of one prophet. And not really just his opinion. The steps of repentance are widely (albeit nominally) accepted. I think the problem is people don't want to actually be held accountable for following them strictly, because they realize, like you, that's kinda impossible. 

[Tacenda]

She wasn't asking for canonization.

The reason I put forth the question, was to show how the people who are inerrant Bible believers feel about adding other books of scripture when in their minds it is complete. It would be like someone telling the LDS that there is another set of scriptures out there that is from God too, and the BoM is incomplete.

Just trying to show why the EV's etc., might be a little put off.

[mass168]

The reason I put forth the question, was to show how the people who are inerrant Bible believers feel about adding other books of scripture when in their minds it is complete. It would be like someone telling the LDS that there is another set of scriptures out there that is from God too, and the BoM is incomplete.

Just trying to show why the EV's etc., might be a little put off.

Hypothetically, I believe (along with many other EV's) there could be further revelation, scriptural or otherwise. I don't think the Bible flat out forbids it, although it does hint that true prophets will be few and far between in the last days (Heb 1:1). Further would have to follow some rules though. It wouldn't be allowed to change previous revelation on the same subject. It wouldn't be revealed by people who also made false prophecies. 

 

That being said, my belief that our salvation has been completed in Christ doesn't really leave room for much life-altering change. Based on some big doctrinal changes that already happened in LDS past, I see the two systems as fundamentally different.

[Freedom]

...The opinion of one prophet. And not really just his opinion. The steps of repentance are widely (albeit nominally) accepted. I think the problem is people don't want to actually be held accountable for following them strictly, because they realize, like you, that's kinda impossible. 

No, it is not impossible. It is entirely possible. It is just that, we cannot do it all. We know the standard and we are to seek to obtain it. The only way to truly repent is to completely forsake the sin. I just recognize that I am imperfect and that I will never overcome all my sins in this life. 

[Freedom]

Hypothetically, I believe (along with many other EV's) there could be further revelation, scriptural or otherwise. I don't think the Bible flat out forbids it, although it does hint that true prophets will be few and far between in the last days (Heb 1:1). Further would have to follow some rules though. It wouldn't be allowed to change previous revelation on the same subject. It wouldn't be revealed by people who also made false prophecies. 

 

That being said, my belief that our salvation has been completed in Christ doesn't really leave room for much life-altering change. Based on some big doctrinal changes that already happened in LDS past, I see the two systems as fundamentally different.

False prophesy such as those given by Jesus when he said he would return within a generation? Or perhaps changes such as those presented by Paul when he contradicted the Savior in stating that works were not necessary? You are on thin ice when you make back handed comments like these. None of the lds scripture contradict the bible, they only contradict your interpretation of the bible. 

[mass168]

False prophesy such as those given by Jesus when he said he would return within a generation? Or perhaps changes such as those presented by Paul when he contradicted the Savior in stating that works were not necessary? You are on thin ice when you make back handed comments like these. None of the lds scripture contradict the bible, they only contradict your interpretation of the bible. 

First, all was hypothetical, just saying what rules things would have to follow. I think the doctrinal changes are quite enough without even bringing prophecy into it. 

 

Second, no. Such as predicting a Far West MO temple and then not delivering on time. But I really can't discuss that again, or the mods will boot me for violations unknown. 

[mass168]

No, it is not impossible. It is entirely possible. It is just that, we cannot do it all. We know the standard and we are to seek to obtain it. The only way to truly repent is to completely forsake the sin. I just recognize that I am imperfect and that I will never overcome all my sins in this life. 

If you believe it's possible, then do it. Make restitution for all your sins, and forsake them all, etc etc. Simple as that... Or is it. 

[Freedom]

First, all was hypothetical, just saying what rules things would have to follow. I think the doctrinal changes are quite enough without even bringing prophecy into it. 

 

Second, no. Such as predicting a Far West MO temple and then not delivering on time. But I really can't discuss that again, or the mods will boot me for violations unknown. 

 

First, all was hypothetical, just saying what rules things would have to follow. I think the doctrinal changes are quite enough without even bringing prophecy into it. 

 

Second, no. Such as predicting a Far West MO temple and then not delivering on time. But I really can't discuss that again, or the mods will boot me for violations unknown. 

What is an example of a doctrine that contradicts the bible?

Matthew 24:34 quotes Christ as saying, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.". This is the same terminology as the Far West Temple. You are being utterly hypocritical by your stance. The bible is full of such non conditional prophesies that did not come to pass in that generation. 

[Freedom]

If you believe it's possible, then do it. Make restitution for all your sins, and forsake them all, etc etc. Simple as that... Or is it. 

 

You love to take these extreme and absolute positions. Repentance is a process. Are you suggesting that we cannot forsake our sins? Are you also suggesting that all sins are equal in degree? Is going 10km over the speed limit on the freeway as bad as murder? 

 

Taken into context, we cannot commit adultery, murder, or other serious crimes and say at the last day we tried to be better. We can and we must overcome serious sins. It is those that are due to human frailty that get us down. loosing our temper, failing to acknowledge someone, sleeping too late. Sins that should be mastered. I do make an effort to perfect myself. You make it sound like a bad thing. I do now worship a God who will cast someone out of heaven because they are poor housekeepers. 

[mass168]

What is an example of a doctrine that contradicts the bible?

Matthew 24:34 quotes Christ as saying, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.". This is the same terminology as the Far West Temple. You are being utterly hypocritical by your stance. The bible is full of such non conditional prophesies that did not come to pass in that generation. 

God being an exalted man. 

 

Two things. The word generation is in question among LDS, so I wouldn't use it to prove something if I were you. Second, you're not even referring to the correct temple. You're thinking of D&C 84, the Independence MO one. D&C 115, the Far West one is the one I was talking about.