ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Well seriously no offense meant here, but the other side of that.. No GA's contradicting each other all the time.. No wondering if my feeble attempts at repentance will be enough. No struggling to get into a building that may or may not answer some of my questions. I hope you can see at least hypothetically how one could have issues with it. A church that can guarantee me salvation without repentance. I'm convinced tell me which one.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) A church that can guarantee me salvation without repentance. I'm convinced tell me which one.I didn't say without repentance, I merely said one that requires total successful repentance, the variety which mine will never be. Glad I have Christ. Read Alma 34, and ask yourself what one must do to get sealed to the devil. Edited January 17, 2015 by mass168
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Well seriously no offense meant here, but the other side of that.. No GA's contradicting each other all the time.. No wondering if my feeble attempts at repentance will be enough. No struggling to get into a building that may or may not answer some of my questions. I hope you can see at least hypothetically how one could have issues with it. No offense?- I have no problem with that. We all receive revelation according to our stewardships, and I do not receive revelation for the church, but have been in enough leadership positions to know that it is absolutely TRUE that we do receive revelation for our stewardships. And we all must have testimonies of every principle- or we are not required to do any of it. If we do not believe it, we don't do it. That would be "blind obedience" and is the stuff of Jim Jones koolaid fame. But that works for all religions- Jones himself allegedly was an Evangelical. Note I say "allegedly" because of course i know THAT is not of Christ, and would not equate Evangelicals with that sort of thing. GA's do not "contradict each other all the time". Do you think it is possible to find preachers who contradict each other in what is allegedly "Christianity"? What was that about bricks and glass houses? I don't worry about repentance- that is a done deal. I do my best and Christ did the rest. No worries- why would you worry about that? To do so denies the atonement. No struggle to get into the temple- as I learned each commandment my mind became clearer and received more revelation and grew closer to Christ. No sacrifice there- just incredible growth. Who would not want to grow as a human being? I would say if someone does not want to become a better human, this is definitely NOT the right church for them. No, I cannot see how hypothetically one would have issues with it. I joined at the age of 31 after being an atheist and finishing all the coursework I needed for a master's in philosophy in a secular university, and I had, and have, no problems with it rationally whatsoever. It is the best possible faith model for humanity as far as I can see- I can imagine nothing better. If I could- that's where I would be. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I didn't say without repentance, I merely said one that requires total successful repentance, the variety which mine will never be. Glad I have Christ. Read Alma 34, and ask yourself what one must do to get sealed to the devil. Oh come on. Don't go all fundy on me.
ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I didn't say without repentance, I merely said one that requires total successful repentance, the variety which mine will never be. Glad I have Christ. Read Alma 34, and ask yourself what one must do to get sealed to the devil. Deny the Holy Ghost and you can ask yourself if you have ever done that.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) No offense?- I have no problem with that. We all receive revelation according to our stewardships, and I do not receive revelation for the church, but have been in enough leadership positions to know that it is absolutely TRUE that we do receive revelation for our stewardships. And we all must have testimonies of every principle- or we are not required to do any of it. If we do not believe it, we don't do it. That would be "blind obedience" and is the stuff of Jim Jones koolaid fame. But that works for all religions- Jones himself allegedly was an Evangelical. Note I say "allegedly" because of course i know THAT is not of Christ, and would not equate Evangelicals with that sort of thing. GA's do not "contradict each other all the time". Do you think it is possible to find preachers who contradict each other in what is allegedly "Christianity"? What was that about bricks and glass houses? I don't worry about repentance- that is a done deal. I do my best and Christ did the rest. No worries- why would you worry about that? To do so denies the atonement. No struggle to get into the temple- as I learned each commandment my mind became clearer and received more revelation and grew closer to Christ. No sacrifice there- just incredible growth. Who would not want to grow as a human being? I would say if someone does not want to become a better human, this is definitely NOT the right church for them. No, I cannot see how hypothetically one would have issues with it. I joined at the age of 31 after being an atheist and finishing all the coursework I needed for a master's in philosophy in a secular university, and I had, and have, no problems with it rationally whatsoever. It is the best possible faith model for humanity as far as I can see- I can imagine nothing better. If I could- that's where I would be.eh.. I know neither of us really want to make a big long debate out of each of those points, so I won't. I firmly believe they are all true.. But I just mentioned them to show you, some people see LDS as requiring a ton more faith than traditional Christianity, and I am one of those. There are a couple mysteries in Christianity, but like you said, I can deal with that, and I would much rather, just like you would much rather deal with your system. Edited January 18, 2015 by mass168
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Deny the Holy Ghost and you can ask yourself if you have ever done that.I'm not sure what you mean. But that's ok, I won't be suspenseful. Alma 34:35. Procrastinate your repentance until death (even if it was an accident?) and you will be sealed to the devil. I can't find hope in that Gospel sorry. Repentance is hard, if we are required to do it perfectly and not procrastinate in anything well then I can't hack it. Good for you that you can hack it. Edited January 18, 2015 by mass168
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Deny the Holy Ghost and you can ask yourself if you have ever done that.Oh, sorry, I understood your answer after I posted the last. Don't honestly feel that I have, I've always believed in Him. Edited January 18, 2015 by mass168
Avatar4321 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Not that you will accept this, because it requires some trinitarian thought experimentation.. Christ could have been speaking from his divine nature when He said that the thief would be with Him that day in paradise, since God the father was present in heaven already. And then speaking from His human nature when he told Mary He hadn't been to heaven yet.so rather than think it through and pray about it, I guess some nonsense you haven't really even though through, but I'm to dumb to accept it.so the thief was in heaven with the Father, but Christ was not. Where was Christ? How did the thief get into heaven without a body and before Christ? Why is this an easier explanation than accepting they were in paradise awaiting resurrection where Christ had ample opportunity to teach him the gospel and where he could repent and receive proxy baptism? After all the scriptures are clear that Christ preached to the dead. additionally we know notion of the thiefs life. He clearly knew who Christ was. He could have easily been baptized before he was crucified. We simply don't knowwhich is precisely why we need the Lord to clarify things from time to time. Because the bible doesn't contain everything in the world about Christ.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) so rather than think it through and pray about it, I guess some nonsense you haven't really even though through, but I'm to dumb to accept it.so the thief was in heaven with the Father, but Christ was not. Where was Christ? How did the thief get into heaven without a body and before Christ? Why is this an easier explanation than accepting they were in paradise awaiting resurrection where Christ had ample opportunity to teach him the gospel and where he could repent and receive proxy baptism? After all the scriptures are clear that Christ preached to the dead.additionally we know notion of the thiefs life. He clearly knew who Christ was. He could have easily been baptized before he was crucified. We simply don't knowwhich is precisely why we need the Lord to clarify things from time to time. Because the bible doesn't contain everything in the world about Christ.I really wasn't trying to insult you, I'm just saying that with a trinitarian view of things, a lot more is possible than is immediately apparent. If you'll notice, I was not dogmatic about this explanation at all. It could very well be wrong. If you want me to be slow to dismiss things from your religion that seem impossibly complicated, it would help if you reciprocate. "where he could repent" Also, side note, repentance after death is not possible according to your scripture, see Alma 34:33-34. Edited January 18, 2015 by mass168
Avatar4321 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 I didn't say without repentance, I merely said one that requires total successful repentance, the variety which mine will never be. Glad I have Christ. Read Alma 34, and ask yourself what one must do to get sealed to the devil.how can you repent and fail? With Christ all things are possible. Dont you believe that?
Avatar4321 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 eh.. I know neither of us really want to make a big long debate out of each of those points, so I won't. I firmly believe they are all true.. But I just mentioned them to show you, some people see LDS as requiring a ton more faith than traditional Christianity, and I am one of those. There are a couple mysteries in Christianity, but like you said, I can deal with that, and I would much rather, just like you would much rather deal with your system. religion that does not have the power to require a sacrifice of all things does not have the power to generate the faith necessary to save a person.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 how can you repent and fail? With Christ all things are possible. Dont you believe that?The "Miracle of Forgiveness," that's how. Yes, I absolutely do believe that all things are possible with Christ.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 religion that does not have the power to require a sacrifice of all things does not have the power to generate the faith necessary to save a person.That comes off as pretty self righteous.. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. You don't know anything about me or my sacrifices.
ERayR Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 That comes off as pretty self righteous.. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. You don't know anything about me or my sacrifices. But it is not about you.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 But it is not about you.Avatar implied my religious system does not require sacrifice and dying to ourselves, which I reject roundly. And it sounded like a thinly veiled personal attack.
rockpond Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 With the idea of an open Canon and continuing revelation, how do LDS know that they have everything they need to know about the plan of salvation?We don't. The restoration is on-going.
Avatar4321 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 The "Miracle of Forgiveness," that's how. Yes, I absolutely do believe that all things are possible with Christ.then trust in him and you cannot fail.
Avatar4321 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Avatar implied my religious system does not require sacrifice and dying to ourselves, which I reject roundly. And it sounded like a thinly veiled personal attack.then stop trying to makes excuses for wh something cannot work and trust in Christ and do it.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) then stop trying to makes excuses for wh something cannot work and trust in Christ and do it.I do trust Christ for my repentance. I'm not making excuses. If anything, I'm asking why LDS feel comfortable excusing themselves from FULLY completing the steps of repentance as prescribed in teachings such as the Miracle of Forgivness. It's not an easy task.. I know that I personally would never be able to complete it. Edited January 18, 2015 by mass168
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 We don't. The restoration is on-going.And you feel comfortable with that, what if ordinances come along that can't be done for the dead? It's at least hypothetically possible.
rockpond Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 And you feel comfortable with that, what if ordinances come along that can't be done for the dead? It's at least hypothetically possible. Yes, I'm comfortable with that. I'm not sure what you mean by ordinances that can't be done for the dead... If God wants them done for the dead, they can be done for the dead.
mass168 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 Yes, I'm comfortable with that. I'm not sure what you mean by ordinances that can't be done for the dead... If God wants them done for the dead, they can be done for the dead.When you leave open the possibility that the restoration is on-going, anything could happen. There could be ordinances left to be revealed that are only for the living, but necessary for salvation. Its a thought experiment.
mfbukowski Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Also, side note, repentance after death is not possible according to your scripture, see Alma 34:33-34.Incidentally that is an interpretation I do not hold and neither do most other Mormons. 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.Note it says not to procrastinate repentance, because we are given this time to PREPARE for eternity. It does not say we have to get it perfect here- it says PREPARE and DO NOT PROCRASTINATE, and IMPROVE here.34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.You cannot say you will repent after you die because you will have the same spirit. It does not say you WILL NOT BE ABLE to repent- it says you don't know if you will be able to or not. Some will be able to- others may not because it will be much harder there, so we must prepare and get on the road NOW so we are used to the repentance process. 35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.Those who have died "wicked"- who have not started to repent here- will be in spirit prison and therefore will be more subject to the spirit of evil- the devil- and that could be your final state if you do not start the repentance process here. We believe that those who have not had an "honest chance" to hear the gospel- as judged by a merciful God- WILL have a "second chance" on the other side, but if you have had an honest chance here, and refused to even try to repent, it is going to be VERY hard to do so, if not impossible. So that is very different from saying "repentance is not possible" for anyone after death. It does not say that at all. So the thief who had a repentant heart already demonstrated he was on the road to repentance and wanted to believe. He is one who would have the opportunity to do so in the afterlife, according to the scripture Edited January 18, 2015 by mfbukowski
rockpond Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 When you leave open the possibility that the restoration is on-going, anything could happen. There could be ordinances left to be revealed that are only for the living, but necessary for salvation. Its a thought experiment. Wouldn't that defeat God's purposes? Why would he do that?
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