mass168 Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 So.....we should cut all other books out of the Bible because that sums it all up right there?It would probably help. I mean you have Jesus's requirements to get into heaven in the parable of the sheep and the goats and it might mess us your neat oversimplified understanding and confuse matters to include it.Never said cut out the other books.. That is a pretty good summary of what they say though
mass168 Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 So.....we should cut all other books out of the Bible because that sums it all up right there?It would probably help. I mean you have Jesus's requirements to get into heaven in the parable of the sheep and the goats and it might mess us your neat oversimplified understanding and confuse matters to include it.How did the thief on the cross get to heaven? That's pretty simple right..
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Never said cut out the other books.. That is a pretty good summary of what they say though No, it really isn't unless you wear blinders the whole time you read it.
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 How did the thief on the cross get to heaven? That's pretty simple right..Fair enough. I accept Jesus as my personal savior yet again. Woo-hoo!!!!! I am saved. Your work is done. Now please stop droning on about this.
mass168 Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 Fair enough. I accept Jesus as my personal savior yet again. Woo-hoo!!!!! I am saved. Your work is done. Now please stop droning on about this.Well I sincerely hope that is true my friend.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Fair enough. I accept Jesus as my personal savior yet again. Woo-hoo!!!!! I am saved. Your work is done. Now please stop droning on about this. Now you know it doesn't count unless you admit that the Savior you worship is part of a confusing triple essence that you can't understand. It doesn't count if you accept a Christ you can actually know.
Avatar4321 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Fair enough. I accept Jesus as my personal savior yet again. Woo-hoo!!!!! I am saved. Your work is done. Now please stop droning on about this.Fair enough. I accept Jesus as my personal savior yet again. Woo-hoo!!!!! I am saved. Your work is done. Now please stop droning on about this.Fair enough. I accept Jesus as my personal savior yet again. Woo-hoo!!!!! I am saved. Your work is done. Now please stop droning on about this.yes unfortunately our work isn't. Because can we conclude that he has accepted Christ if he is going out of his way to justify why we should ignore christ's word?
Avatar4321 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Not true. Please explain what it means.it means you're sitting here asking why. The context is relevant while claiming to have read the passages in context
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 How did the thief on the cross get to heaven? That's pretty simple right..we don't know he ever got to heaven but we do have reason to suppose he did.his entrance into the kingdom of heaven is the same as any other. Faith in Jesus Christ. Repentenxe. Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Well I sincerely hope that is true my friend.It is. It is just that I have communicated with the Savior ever since that declaration and while it is a good start he expects a lot more. I mean, I was offered a chance at fornication with a beautiful woman earlier this week and God had the nerve to tell me to abstain.....as if he expected more of me then just accepting him.I wish your theology was true. I really do. Still, it is not biblical. Christianity has never historically accepted it. And God tells me it is false and quite bluntly, not enough. The Savior has grace sufficient to perfect and redeem me. He sets the conditions for eternal life and is willing to alter me through his grace to make me able to meet them.If youmhave a convincing counterargument I would love to hear it. I can still call her back.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 it means you're sitting here asking why. The context is relevant while claiming to have read the passages in contextOk maybe if I do things this way, you will actually give me a real answer. 1 The words which Jacob, the brother of Nephi, spake unto the people of Nephi, after the death of Nephi: 2 Now, my beloved brethren, I, Jacob, according to theresponsibility which I am under to God, to magnify mine office with soberness, and that I might rid my garments of your sins, I come up into the temple this day that I might declare unto you the word of God.Everything that follows is the word of God. 3 And ye yourselves know that I have hitherto been diligent in the office of my calling; but I this day am weighed down with much more desire and anxiety for the welfare of your souls than I have hitherto been. 4 For behold, as yet, ye have been obedient unto the word of the Lord, which I have given unto you. 5 But behold, hearken ye unto me, and know that by the help of the all-powerful Creator of heaven and earth I can tell you concerning your thoughts, how that ye are beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable unto me, yea, and abominable unto God.The people have been relatively good so far, but they are starting to have the beginnings of wicked thoughts and actions. 6 Yea, it grieveth my soul and causeth me to shrink with shame before the presence of my Maker, that I must testify unto you concerning the wickedness of your hearts. 7 And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God; 8 And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul. 9 Wherefore, it burdeneth my soul that I should be constrained, because of the strict commandment which I have received from God, to admonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded, instead of consoling and healing their wounds; and those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing word of God have daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds.He doesn't want to give harsh words about things they are about to do/have been doing, but he is required by the Lord 10 But, notwithstanding the greatness of the task, I must do according to the strict commands of God, and tell you concerning your wickedness and abominations, in the presence of the pure in heart, and the broken heart, and under the glance of the piercing eye of the Almighty God. 11 Wherefore, I must tell you the truth according to the plainnessof the word of God. For behold, as I inquired of the Lord, thus came the word unto me, saying: Jacob, get thou up into the temple on the morrow, and declare the word which I shall give thee unto this people. 12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully. 13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.The people are getting too proud. 14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you. 15 O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his eye he can smite you to the dust! 16 O that he would rid you from this iniquity and abomination. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this pride of your hearts destroy your souls! 17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you. 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.Stop being jerks and share your riches and seek the kingdom of God. 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to dogood—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. 20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken unto you concerning pride; and those of you which have afflicted your neighbor, and persecuted him because ye were proud in your hearts, of the things which God hath given you, what say ye of it? 21 Do ye not suppose that such things are abominable unto him who created all flesh? And the one being is as precious in his sight as the other. And all flesh is of the dust; and for the selfsame end hath he created them, that they should keep his commandmentsand glorify him forever. 22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you. 23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.Ok I'm done yelling at you about your pride and not sharing riches, but we have something even more important to talk about. 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it beone wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.I the Lord have a purpose for the people, and I am powerful enough to accomplish it without you misreading and applying the scripture to support your "whoredoms." Therefore, have only one wife, because that is all that is required, and I consider anything else an abomination. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.Don't do anything else, or your land will be cursed. Oh and did I mention I'm powerful enough to accomplish this with you having only one wife? 31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts. 33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commitwhoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts. 34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done. 35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) we don't know he ever got to heaven but we do have reason to suppose he did.his entrance into the kingdom of heaven is the same as any other. Faith in Jesus Christ. Repentenxe. Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.You mean like Jesus saying he would be there? I agree that's a pretty good reason. He was baptized? I suppose you mean posthumously.. Edit: Oh, and he made restitution for all his sins? Didn't really have a lot of options there.. Edited January 17, 2015 by mass168
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 It is. It is just that I have communicated with the Savior ever since that declaration and while it is a good start he expects a lot more. I mean, I was offered a chance at fornication with a beautiful woman earlier this week and God had the nerve to tell me to abstain.....as if he expected more of me then just accepting him.I wish your theology was true. I really do. Still, it is not biblical. Christianity has never historically accepted it. And God tells me it is false and quite bluntly, not enough. The Savior has grace sufficient to perfect and redeem me. He sets the conditions for eternal life and is willing to alter me through his grace to make me able to meet them.If youmhave a convincing counterargument I would love to hear it. I can still call her back.Is that really what you think? I would have given in due to my theology?
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Is that really what you think? I would have given in due to my theology?Why are you trying to make this about you?
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) If youmhave a convincing counterargument I would love to hear it. I can still call her back."Why are you trying to make this about you? " Maybe because you made it that way. You're clearly saying that if you believed like I did, maybe you would indulge in this fornication. Not super classy.. Edited January 17, 2015 by mass168
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 "Why are you trying to make this about you? " Maybe because you made it that way. You're clearly saying that if you believed like I did, maybe you would indulge in this fornication. Not super classy..No, I was exploring the ramifications of your theology using my real-life experiences.Are you making a moral point or a theological one? Are you saying it would just be not nice but I Would be fine in the long run or that I could use WORKS to cut myself off from GRACE?
Ahab Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 The best part about continuing revelation to me is that I get to get and continue to get revelation from God to me, personally, instead of having to settle for what other people say God revealed to them while I try to apply what they said to me, if I believe them.I suppose it's a personal preference. Maybe others don't really want it. But I like it, and I am glad that I get it. 1
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 No, I was exploring the ramifications of your theology using my real-life experiences.Are you making a moral point or a theological one? Are you saying it would just be not nice but I Would be fine in the long run or that I could use WORKS to cut myself off from GRACE?Well that's not a valid ramification. Don't misunderstand, I believe "faith without works is dead." The issue at hand is additional physical requirements for getting to heaven. It is a theological point. There is no set of specific works (ordinances) that are required by God, It is a matter of the heart. Trusting in works to any degree does cut one off from grace, because it means you're not fully trusting in Jesus, that idea is clear in the NT.
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 You mean like Jesus saying he would be there? I agree that's a pretty good reason. He was baptized? I suppose you mean posthumously.. Edit: Oh, and he made restitution for all his sins? Didn't really have a lot of options there..Jesus said nothing of the sort. You would realize that if you studied the scriptures instead of just taking no thought to them.Let me ask you this. Was Jesus lying when He told Mary H had not yet been to heaven when He saw her in His resurrected body?
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Jesus said nothing of the sort. You would realize that if you studied the scriptures instead of just taking no thought to them.Let me ask you this. Was Jesus lying when He told Mary H had not yet been to heaven when He saw her in His resurrected body?He didn't? Luke 23:42-43? I'm not sure where he went went after he was murdered, It's not a subject I have studied in great detail. I know that these verses sound like he was in heaven. And I also am not sure which verses your second part refer to. Edited January 17, 2015 by mass168
ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Well that's not a valid ramification. Don't misunderstand, I believe "faith without works is dead." The issue at hand is additional physical requirements for getting to heaven. It is a theological point. There is no set of specific works (ordinances) that are required by God, It is a matter of the heart. Trusting in works to any degree does cut one off from grace, because it means you're not fully trusting in Jesus, that idea is clear in the NT. I concur that faith without works is dead. Now accepting that you must agree works are essential to being saved. If that were not the case all you are left with is dead faith.
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 I concur that faith without works is dead. Now accepting that you must agree works are essential to being saved. If that were not the case all you are left with is dead faith.It is not a specific set of works (ordinances) like LDS theology claims. It is a matter of the heart. Only God knows which works came out of a true believers heart.
ERayR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 It is not a specific set of works (ordinances) like LDS theology claims. It is a matter of the heart. Only God knows which works came out of a true believers heart. If you really believe this why are judging and condemning LDS? Has God delegated that to you?
mass168 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 If you really believe this why are judging and condemning LDS? Has God delegated that to you?I am confident in saying the answer is not in temple ordinances, ONLY because the Bible says as much. I don't see that as judging.
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 He didn't? Luke 23:42-43? I'm not sure where he went went after he was murdered, It's not a subject I have studied in great detail. I know that these verses sound like he was in heaven. And I also am not sure which verses your second part refer to.and yet we know paradise cannot be heaven unless Jesus is a liar.if Jesus and the their were already in heaven, why was the resurrection necessary?
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