Can We Please Be Done Debating With Trinitarians?

[JLHPROF]

We have two threads on why we aren't Christian and the topic keeps creeping into other threads.  It's also causing the evangelical attacks to multiply and preventing discussion of real gospel truth.

 

Personally, I'm prepared to concede the following:

 

1. The Christ I believe in is NOT the same Christ as the traditional Christian faiths.

2. I do believe there are multiple Gods, even if there is only one I pray to.

3. I do believe that we can become exactly like God and that God was once mortal.

4. I do NOT believe that the Bible as compiled is flawless, only contains texts with God's approval, or is a closed canon.

5. I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost share anything other than a purpose (see number 3).

 

There.  Now that I've conceded ALL their claims against us, can we move on?  Because I have NO issue with these differences of belief.  If I wanted to agree with them (or get them to agree with me) I'd be a traditional Christian.  And I am not.  So their agreement or approval of my belief means nothing.

I mean, I don't spend hours and hours debating Hindu's on reincarnation.  Why?  Because it doesn't matter to my beliefs what a Hindu believes either.

 

So I say again, can we be done pointless trying to convince other religions who don't share our beliefs that we are right and focus on our own religion?  We might as well try and convince a Muslim that Mohammed wasn't a prophet.  Waste of time.

[Teancum]

But it is so much fun!

 

But yea you are right. Mormonism does not make it case from the Bible alone.  If Mormons are honest they view the LDS Church as THE Christian Church and the rest just as wannabee apostates.   Just tell them all if they are nice they may end up in the terrestrial kingdom with Jesus who they think is the Father anyway.

[smac97]

We have two threads on why we aren't Christian and the topic keeps creeping into other threads.  It's also causing the evangelical attacks to multiply and preventing discussion of real gospel truth.

 

Personally, I'm prepared to concede the following:

 

1. The Christ I believe in is NOT the same Christ as the traditional Christian faiths.

Could you explain this one? Are you saying that Latter-day Saints believe in a person named "Jesus" who A) was born in Bethlehem, B) was born to a mother named Mary, C) who claimed to be the Son of God, D) who performed miracles and ministered for approximately three years, E) who gathered followers, including twelve "apostles," F) who was betrayed by one of his apostles, and was tried, tortured and crucified unto death, G) who was buried in a tomb and then resurrected three days later, H) who then taught his followers for a time before ascending into heaven, but I) is numerically distinct from the "Jesus" described in New Testament of The Bible?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 5, 2015 by smac97

[Uncle Dale]

...

Personally, I'm prepared to concede the following:

 

1. The Christ I believe in is NOT the same Christ as the traditional Christian faiths.

...

 

 

 

Recalls to my mind an interesting conversation that I once

had with a Presbyterian minister, who was interviewing me

for a potential employment placement in Columbus, Ohio.

 

Among other things, he mentioned that "Jesus led the

Israelites through Sinai..."

 

That statement struck me as odd, coming as it did from a

Protestant, whose Confession of Faith does not say in so

many words, that Jesus the Son of Mary was the "Jehovah"

of the Hebrew Bible.

 

"Do you mean the same Jesus whom the Gospels say was

crucified at Golgotha nearly 2000 years ago," I asked.

 

"Yes, one in the same..." he answered with utter assuredness.

 

"But how can that be the case, if he was not even born yet,

in the day and age of Moses and the Exodus?"

 

"You, see, Dale..." he began with a condescending sigh, 

"the Godhead is divided into three persons, and it was Jesus

who conducted the exodus and the guidance of the Children

of Israel to the Promised Land."

 

I was tempted to ask what the other two "persons" of that

particular godhead were doing at the time -- but such a

query would have sounded disrespectful (and probably

would have cost me the position I was then applying for).

 

Oh well...

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

Could you explain this one? Are you saying that Latter-day Saints believe in a person named "Jesus" who A) was born in Bethlehem, B) was born to a mother named Mary, C) who claimed to be the Son of God, D) who performed miracles and ministered for approximately three years, E) who gathered followers, including twelve "apostles," F) who was betrayed by one of his apostles, and was tried, tortured and crucified unto death, G) who was buried in a tomb and then resurrected three days later, H) who then taught his followers for a time before ascending into heaven, but I) is numerically distinct from the "Jesus" described in New Testament of The Bible?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

No, I believe we believe in EXACTLY the Christ of the Bible.  We don't believe in the sectarian Christ who was just one part of the essence of God made incarnate.

[Jim Stiles]

But it is so much fun!

 

But yea you are right. Mormonism does not make it case from the Bible alone.  If Mormons are honest they view the LDS Church as THE Christian Church and the rest just as wannabee apostates.   Just tell them all if they are nice they may end up in the terrestrial kingdom with Jesus who they think is the Father anyway.

We are not modalists. The Father is not the Son.

[JLHPROF]

We are not modalists. The Father is not the Son.

 

You're hardly the only tradition Christian hanging out here lately - there's at least half a dozen more from many different sects.

[Jim Stiles]

We have two threads on why we aren't Christian and the topic keeps creeping into other threads.  It's also causing the evangelical attacks to multiply and preventing discussion of real gospel truth.

 

Personally, I'm prepared to concede the following:

 

1. The Christ I believe in is NOT the same Christ as the traditional Christian faiths.

2. I do believe there are multiple Gods, even if there is only one I pray to.

3. I do believe that we can become exactly like God and that God was once mortal.

4. I do NOT believe that the Bible as compiled is flawless, only contains texts with God's approval, or is a closed canon.

5. I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost share anything other than a purpose (see number 3).

 

There.  Now that I've conceded ALL their claims against us, can we move on?  Because I have NO issue with these differences of belief.  If I wanted to agree with them (or get them to agree with me) I'd be a traditional Christian.  And I am not.  So their agreement or approval of my belief means nothing.

I mean, I don't spend hours and hours debating Hindu's on reincarnation.  Why?  Because it doesn't matter to my beliefs what a Hindu believes either.

 

So I say again, can we be done pointless trying to convince other religions who don't share our beliefs that we are right and focus on our own religion?  We might as well try and convince a Muslim that Mohammed wasn't a prophet.  Waste of time.

It would help if LDS leaders would not get on television and claim to be Christian. It would also help if Glen Beck would not get on television and claim to be a Christian. It is not his fault that Liberty University invited him to speak.

[Jim Stiles]

You're hardly the only tradition Christian hanging out here lately - there's at least half a dozen more from many different sects.

Yes, the United Pentacostals are modalists.

[JLHPROF]

Perhaps if we just concede our differences we can stop debating endlessly and achieving nothing.

 

I don't care what they believe.  Why should they care what I believe?  We aren't the same religion.  Just because we use the term Christian they get offended.  Well, I say again, I don't care what they believe.

[3DOP]

Perhaps if we just concede our differences we can stop debating endlessly and achieving nothing.

 

I don't care what they believe.  Why should they care what I believe?  We aren't the same religion.  Just because we use the term Christian they get offended.  Well, I say again, I don't care what they believe.

 

JLH....Yeah. Quit trying to please that bunch. You are starting to see the light. You believe you have the Restored Gospel. You believe you have living Apostles and Prophets. Why in the hot place would you care whether anybody else doubts if you are "Christians"? Do you need validation from them? It is beneath you to be trying to convince Protestants and Catholics who don't understand you that you are "Christians" according to their exclusivist definitions.

 

Do I care that some Evangelicals say Catholics aren't Christians? For their sakes, I should feel bad that they are so ignorant. But I have to allow them their foolish opinions if they so insist. Agency and all that, you know?

 

3

Edited January 5, 2015 by 3DOP

[Teancum]

We are not modalists. The Father is not the Son.

 

 

Was it you who said God cannot make a three sided triangle?   How are 1+1+1=1 substance and essence?

 

Oh and Mormons are no more polytheistic than you are a modalist.

[Teancum]

It would help if LDS leaders would not get on television and claim to be Christian. It would also help if Glen Beck would not get on television and claim to be a Christian. It is not his fault that Liberty University invited him to speak.

 

 

Why?  They are Christians.  Just not reformed Calvinistic Christians, or historically orthodox creedal Christians.

[bluebell]

Do I care that some Evangelicals say Catholics aren't Christians? For their sakes, I should feel bad that they are so ignorant. But I have to allow them their foolish opinions if they so insist. Agency and all that, you know?

This is why you are one of my favorite non-LDS posters.

[Teancum]

JLH....Yeah. Quit trying to please that bunch. You are starting to see the light. You believe you have the Restored Gospel. You believe you have living Apostles and Prophets. Why in the hot place would you care whether anybody else doubts if you are "Christians"? Do you need validation from them? It is beneath you to be trying to convince Protestants and Catholics who don't understand you that you are "Christians" according to their exclusivist definitions.

 

Do I care that some Evangelicals say Catholics aren't Christians? For their sakes, I should feel bad that they are so ignorant. But I have to allow them their foolish opinions if they so insist. Agency and all that, you know?

 

3

  Catholics are most certainly Christians.

 

 

I quite like Catholicism.  At times I have considered pursuing it more.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Teancum

[3DOP]

Was it you who said God cannot make a three sided triangle?   How are 1+1+1=1 substance and essence?

 

Oh and Mormons are no more polytheistic than you are a modalist.

 

You guys don't really want to let it go. Some of you want to ridicule us, to prove we are absurd, too. Isn't that so, Teancum? Nobody says 1+1+1=3.

[JLHPROF]

JLH....Yeah. Quit trying to please that bunch. You are starting to see the light. You believe you have the Restored Gospel. You believe you have living Apostles and Prophets. Why in the hot place would you care whether anybody else doubts if you are "Christians"? Do you need validation from them? It is beneath you to be trying to convince Protestants and Catholics who don't understand you that you are "Christians" according to their exclusivist definitions.

 

Do I care that some Evangelicals say Catholics aren't Christians? For their sakes, I should feel bad that they are so ignorant. But I have to allow them their foolish opinions if they so insist. Agency and all that, you know?

 

3

 

I sense sarcasm, but yep, exactly!

[3DOP]

  Catholics are most certainly Christians.

 

 

I quite like Catholicism.  At times I have considered pursuing it more.

 

But heh...We are still 1+1+1=3. Just like them.

[3DOP]

I sense sarcasm, but yep, exactly!

 

Not really JLH. For fifteen years I have seen you guys worry about what Protestants think. I would be one of you before I could ever be one of them. And I don't get why you guys care that they exclude you from their definition of Christianity.

[Teancum]

But heh...We are still 1+1+1=3. Just like them.

 

 

Yea I know it darn it!  But I could be Catholic and keep some heretical beliefs and nobody would bug me about it!

[Bobbieaware]

We have two threads on why we aren't Christian and the topic keeps creeping into other threads. It's also causing the evangelical attacks to multiply and preventing discussion of real gospel truth.

Personally, I'm prepared to concede the following:

1. The Christ I believe in is NOT the same Christ as the traditional Christian faiths.

2. I do believe there are multiple Gods, even if there is only one I pray to.

3. I do believe that we can become exactly like God and that God was once mortal.

4. I do NOT believe that the Bible as compiled is flawless, only contains texts with God's approval, or is a closed canon.

5. I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost share anything other than a purpose (see number 3).

There. Now that I've conceded ALL their claims against us, can we move on? Because I have NO issue with these differences of belief. If I wanted to agree with them (or get them to agree with me) I'd be a traditional Christian. And I am not. So their agreement or approval of my belief means nothing.

I mean, I don't spend hours and hours debating Hindu's on reincarnation. Why? Because it doesn't matter to my beliefs what a Hindu believes either.

So I say again, can we be done pointless trying to convince other religions who don't share our beliefs that we are right and focus on our own religion? We might as well try and convince a Muslim that Mohammed wasn't a prophet. Waste of time.

The only correction I would make is that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all filled to infinite and eternal fullness with the uncreated and unchanging Holy Spirit of Truth. It is this Holy Spirit of divine intelligence that these three share in common and it truly makes them one Godhead, though three separate personages.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Teancum]

You guys don't really want to let it go. Some of you want to ridicule us, to prove we are absurd, too. Isn't that so, Teancum? Nobody says 1+1+1=3.

 

 

Look I am just giving the same imbecilic crap back the Mr. Stiles the new local Calvinist on the board. I know it is more complicated that that just as the LDS view is about how they believe the Godhead is one but not in substance or essence.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Teancum

[strappinglad]

I imagine most here have read this joke, but for those who haven't...

Do we actually want to be part of this crowd?

"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over."

(attributed to Emo Phillips )

Edited January 5, 2015 by strappinglad

[Sevenbak]

It would help if LDS leaders would not get on television and claim to be Christian. It would also help if Glen Beck would not get on television and claim to be a Christian. It is not his fault that Liberty University invited him to speak.

I think the problem here is that there is a difference in how "Christian" is defined.  We Mormons believe that we are Christian, but not traditional in any orthodox definition.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Trinitarians hold the view that their definition of "Chrtistian" is the only valid one, and therefore LDS Leaders and Glenn Beck etc... should never make such a claim.   

 

Thus the problem... I agree with the OP.

[halconero]

It would help if LDS leaders would not get on television and claim to be Christian. It would also help if Glen Beck would not get on television and claim to be a Christian. It is not his fault that Liberty University invited him to speak.

 

And we'll forever make that claim thank you very much.