WysteriaBlue Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 In another thread, there was some discussion that I did not understand and decided to try and ask the question separately here as there seems to be a bit of a difference of opinion and much doctrine involved... As JLPROF said, “You're missing the principle behind this again. EVERYONE is judged by their priesthood heads, one by one. For our dispensation that starts and ends with Joseph Smith. There will never be a time when there isn't a priesthood head above you or a time if you are worthy when there aren't priesthood holders below you. The 70 answer to the Apostles, the Apostles answer to the prophet, the prophet answer to both Christ and his priesthood head (the man who annointed and appointed him to the position). The pattern is eternal - even God was appointed head of this creation by the council of the Gods.” IMO, there is a HUGE difference between being judged for temple recommends and heads and such in the mortal existence VS being judged for all eternity by the Godhood, specifically Jesus in this time…,But, if I go with this thinking and try to extrapolate what is being said then….. Those that are in the running for helping to judge people in the dispensation of time could be:The 15 presidents / prophets since Joseph Smith,and Peter, James and John and Joseph Smith and 2 main angels...Michael and Gabriel, and you have to add Moroni...and the Holy Ghost, the last Spirit Child that was created so he will be the last to take a body...and the other 8 original apostles, and the 12 apostles that were set up here for the dispensation of time.. you could count the quorum of 12 now reigning or will be reigning..and the current 70, although unlikely...and the key patriarchs like Abraham, Moses, Enoch (?), etc…but, Peter denied Him and the Holy Ghost 3 times, and obviously Judas betrayed Jesus…and what about the small group that were taken up at the time of Jesus’ quickening or those that were judged in His time,and I’m very sure there are others that I haven’t even thought to list here….And Christ said that God would be involved, and thus perhaps HM would also? But according to Teddyaware: “Peter is the head of the Gospel Dispensation of the Meridian of Time;, and Joseph Smith is the priesthood head of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times….” BUT, there are still ONLY 12 seats. If Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost (Godhood) are the ONLY ones that are omniscient and omnipotent and can read the hearts and minds of men....who else would be qualified to judge but Jesus the law maker in this dispensation of time? Just like God used Adam and Eve and eventually Moses to communicate His laws. and thus He judged according to his laws in the first dispensation......And the laws were given to man through Moroni and Joseph Smith by Jesus…And Jesus set these laws in motion and thus he could be the only judge and redeemer according to the laws of Justice in this dispensation... If the op’s on the forum are correct, who will be assigning the huge masses of unknown people to various 12 tribes, teaching the principles to these masses that did not get the chance to be exposed during their lifetimes, and then judging them one by one after their trials? Who will be purifying and cleansing the Earth again and creating the Celestial kingdom?Yet, we suppose that He needs help and some kind of input from man. Which men or angels or apostles or presidents/prophets and patriarchs are truly capable and completely righteous enough to be His helpers? Jesus will make His judgments and pass them to God for final disposition….And although Jesus’ pattern whenever he needed time to make hard decisions was to go off on his own (desert, garden, lakes, etc), but yet NOW he needs a committee??God didn’t need this type of bureaucracy…why would Jesus? [no, I'm NOT being facetious here...just a comment on his behaviors of making hard decisions as seen in the NT....] And how many times did Jesus implore MEN not to judge?And there shall be no mistakes and all will be set to right in the end….(as I have been counseled many times….) And just to repeat a few scriptures mentioned: Matthew said, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.” (Matthew 16:27) and according to Nephi, “And the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there" (2 Nephi 9:41) There have been so many Melchizedek priesthood key holders that are worthy, and even some other Faiths say that they too have Melchizedek priesthood holders…. Question: What do you think, who will be the 12, and why? or even, will there be 12 men assisting Jesus in the judgment making process?
Duncan Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Doesn't it say somewhere in the scriptures that the Twelve who were with Jesus would help Judge?, not be the the Judge as that is God the Father's job I don't see the 2 Nephi 9:41 verse talking about this issue, I see it as Christ is the truth, the way and the life, with baptism as a gate, marriage in the Temple as a gate
WysteriaBlue Posted October 29, 2014 Author Posted October 29, 2014 That is more how I interpreted it in terms of the Original 12 apolstles, but others seemed to REALLY disagree. I was trying to broach the subject in a way that would open the discussion in a different way and get a better understanding of more modern interpretations.. wb
cdowis Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Matt 19 [28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 2
janderich Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I think the judgement is not quite so structured as most tend to believe. We are "judged" based on what we hear and the truths we are exposed to. For example, if a person hears the missionary discussions, receives a witness of the words spoken and then rejects them, he has at that moment already been judged. Of course I could say the missionaries will be his judges at the last day and that would be right. But I do not believe he will stand literally before a tribunal which include the missionaries. No, the judgement is here and now, although it extends into eternity and the full extent of ones choices may not be completely realized till the resurrection. So will Joseph be our judge? If we have had a witness of the truths he taught then, yes. Will the 12 apostles of the lamb be our judge? If we have felt a confirmation of truths in the Bible then, yes. May a person not of the LDS church judge us? Yes, if he or she has spoken truth by the spirit. But of course ultimately Christ will be our judge because without him we could not recognize and act on truth.
Sevenbak Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Question: What do you think, who will be the 12, and why? or even, will there be 12 men assisting Jesus in the judgment making process? I've always looked on Jesus's references to the 12 thrones as offices, not people. So yes, I believe the 12 in Jerusalem will judge those they have stewardship over. Just as I believe every dispensation and even possibly different generations will be judged by 12, along with Christ. It just won't be the same ones. 1
WysteriaBlue Posted October 29, 2014 Author Posted October 29, 2014 I've always looked on Jesus's references to the 12 thrones as offices, not people. So yes, I believe the 12 in Jerusalem will judge those they have stewardship over. Just as I believe every dispensation and even possibly different generations will be judged by 12, along with Christ. It just won't be the same ones. Thank you....this makes a lot of sense.
Nevo Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 In D&C 29, the Lord declares that "mine apostles, the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming in a pillar of fire . . . to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else." (D&C 29:12). That's (potentially) us right? Everyone in the Church is part of the House of Israel. Now if only the Gospel writers could agree on who the Twelve were... 1
Sevenbak Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 But to complicate this you have Christ speaking to the 12 Nephites in ancient America telling them they will judge the people but that they will be judged by the 12 in Jerusalem. Then there are the often used anti-quotes about Joseph Smith being our judge. (Sigh) I still think it's a calling and dispensational office that reports up the chain. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 The principle is very clear and easy to find in the scriptures:1. There will be multiple judgements of our worthiness - ie, multiple judges to pass by before being judged by the Savior2. We will be judged by those who preside over us in authority before we ever reach Christ. This includes Joseph Smith for our dispensation.It's a step by step process, just like getting a temple recommend, or being recommended for your second anointings (maybe a closer parallel). Nobody is taken straight to Christ to be judged without being vetted by those who presided over them. ----------------------------------------------------------------- D&C 64 (THE SAINTS WILL JUDGE ZION)38 For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion.39 And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.40 And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead. I COR 6 (THE SAINTS WILL JUDGE THE GENTILES AND THE ANGELS)2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? OBADIAH 1 (THE SAVIORS ON MOUNT ZION, THAT'S US, WILL JUDGE THE GENTILES)21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s. I NEPHI 12 (THE 12 NEPHITE APOSTLES WILL JUDGE THE NEPHITES AND BE JUDGED BY THE SENIOR APOSTLES)9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood. MORMON 3 (THE 12 NEPHITE APOSTLES WILL JUDGE THE NEPHITES AND BE JUDGED BY THE SENIOR APOSTLES)18 Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem.19 And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem. D&C 29 (THE TWELVE APOSTLES WILL JUDGE THE TWELVE TRIBES)12 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, and it hath gone forth in a firm decree, by the will of the Father, that mine apostles, the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming in a pillar of fire, being clothed with robes of righteousness, with crowns upon their heads, in glory even as I am, to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else. D&C 137 (CHRIST WILL ALSO JUDGE ALL MEN)9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. JOHN 5 (HEAVENLY FATHER WILL NOT JUDGE US)22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 1
JLHPROF Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 But to complicate this you have Christ speaking to the 12 Nephites in ancient America telling them they will judge the people but that they will be judged by the 12 in Jerusalem. Then there are the often used anti-quotes about Joseph Smith being our judge. (Sigh) I still think it's a calling and dispensational office that reports up the chain. That is exactly what it is, and exactly the issue being discussed here. Every person will be judged first by those leaders who presided over them in life. Then by those who preside over the other leaders in a dispensation, each dispensation head (Joseph Smith). Then probably by the 12 Apostles. Then the final judgement by Christ wherein our final condition will be established. Nobody gets to skip to the end, any more than you can just get a temple recommend with a stake president's signature without first being interviewed by your Bishop. (And yes, the Temple Endowment and the Final Judgement have parallels - that's why there is a test at the end of the endowment - to judge if you are qualified to enter Christ's presence.) 1
Storm Rider Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I think the judgement is not quite so structured as most tend to believe. We are "judged" based on what we hear and the truths we are exposed to. For example, if a person hears the missionary discussions, receives a witness of the words spoken and then rejects them, he has at that moment already been judged. Of course I could say the missionaries will be his judges at the last day and that would be right. But I do not believe he will stand literally before a tribunal which include the missionaries. No, the judgement is here and now, although it extends into eternity and the full extent of ones choices may not be completely realized till the resurrection. So will Joseph be our judge? If we have had a witness of the truths he taught then, yes. Will the 12 apostles of the lamb be our judge? If we have felt a confirmation of truths in the Bible then, yes. May a person not of the LDS church judge us? Yes, if he or she has spoken truth by the spirit. But of course ultimately Christ will be our judge because without him we could not recognize and act on truth. Once an individual has learned a spiritual truth (s)he is a culpable for that truth is a more accurate way rather than saying (s)he is judged. There seems to be something missing from this idea of priesthood leaders being judges; they will stand as potential witnesses if needed. I find most of the judgment process to be more of a self-identification than a situation where an individual learns where they are going or is condemned by others. We will be able to drink in fully the grace of Christ and be in the Father's presence or we will not. The farther way we stand is the degree of glory we will find. In this context, I find most of this debate rather moot. It is much ado about nothing than and a misdirection about the actual process of judgment. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) In D&C 29, the Lord declares that "mine apostles, the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming in a pillar of fire . . . to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else." (D&C 29:12). That's (potentially) us right? Everyone in the Church is part of the House of Israel. Now if only the Gospel writers could agree on who the Twelve were...It might be well not to forget the Jews in all this, and not to forget the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 (12,000 from each tribe). Edited October 29, 2014 by Robert F. Smith 2
Robert F. Smith Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Sometimes this matter of judging can be made more efficient by appointing more elders to hear cases, as was done by Moses (based on advice from his father-in-law, Jethro, the high priest of the Midianites) in appointing Seventy Elders to assist him in hearing & deciding cases (see Exodus and Numbers). We can already plainly see what this means in the very efficient and massive array of temple work taking place in LDS temples, which will be expanded exponentially in the Millennium. Those who have the keys appoint specific temple presidents and matrons, sealers, and other ordinance workers to conduct certain rituals, i.e., power is delegated. God's house is a house of order.
Calm Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 That is more how I interpreted it in terms of the Original 12 apolstles, but others seemed to REALLY disagree. I was trying to broach the subject in a way that would open the discussion in a different way and get a better understanding of more modern interpretations.. wbI personally see any previous judgment like getting practice tests before taking the SAT ( do they still have that?). The Judges are to help us learn what we will encounter and prepare us to move on to the next stage until we come before God. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I personally see any previous judgment like getting practice tests before taking the SAT ( do they still have that?). The Judges are to help us learn what we will encounter and prepare us to move on to the next stage until we come before God. I like this, and just to be clear, while the scriptures are very clear on those who preside judging, the nature of that judgement is not spelled out.I really like that Cal - it may well be that the "judgement" may be more signing off on a test before moving us to the next stage. I never really saw the "judgement" as a courtroom anyway.
Avatar4321 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I disagree that Christ told us not to judge. He told us not to judge by appearance but to judge righteously. In fact Moroni makes it a point to show us how to judge 1
Calm Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I like this, and just to be clear, while the scriptures are very clear on those who preside judging, the nature of that judgement is not spelled out.I really like that Cal - it may well be that the "judgement" may be more signing off on a test before moving us to the next stage. I never really saw the "judgement" as a courtroom anyway.I find it hard to believe I came up with an idea you hadn't seen before.I've impressed myself. 1
JLHPROF Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I find it hard to believe I came up with an idea you hadn't seen before.I've impressed myself. Oh come on, am I really such a know-it-all? (Don't answer that... )I actually love your posts (except when we discuss polyandrous sealings... ) - I know I'm going to get a new, informed perspective on the topic.
rongo Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 It might be well not to forget . . . the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 (12,000 from each tribe).Except for Dan. Never understood why Dan was excluded from the 144,000 in Revelation, but it's fun to ask Jehovah's Witnesses (who also have no idea, but it bothers them that they don't know).
Calm Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Oh come on, am I really such a know-it-all? (Don't answer that... )I actually love your posts (except when we discuss polyandrous sealings... ) - I know I'm going to get a new, informed perspective on the topic.Thanks, you have provided me with quite a bit of info I haven't known for which I am grateful.And the little extra fun I get bringing up polyandry is a plus as well.
Recommended Posts