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What Is The Best Argument For The Existence Of God?

MormonFreeThinker

By MormonFreeThinker
in General Discussions

Arguments for the Existence of God  

9 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one is better?

    • Fine tuning argument?
      0
    • Lincoln Cannon's New God argument?
      1
    • Both Good
      2
    • Both Bad
      6

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mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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mfbukowski,

This is stunningly beautiful. I was wondering if there is some way you could email me this whole thing, the Scriptures you site, as well as your interpretations of them. I can't copy the whole thing for myself...again, no computer. I can't get a screenshot of it either because my phone has too small a screen to be able to do that.

If you would be kind enough to copy and email your entire post to me, I would be so grateful. If you don't mind doing this, please private me for my email. Thanks in advance.

Best,

Melanie

Thanks for your kind words. You have a pm.

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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So here is the question: Considering that "all things are before Him, and all things are round about Him; and He is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by Him, and through Him, and of Him" (see D&C 88:41), is our unbelieving atheist under any condemnation for not seeing the obvious while he is yet in mortality?

 

P.S. I ask the above question in light of the fact that I was once a hardcore atheist who is now able to look outside of his office window and plainly see God moving in all His power, majesty and glory

Regarding the scriptures- I can't disagree of course but I think this is a good place to resolve secular questions about the faith- that is what apologetics is.

 

Quoting scriptures to non-believers is not very convincing when what they are looking for is a reason- a rational reason- to believe in them in the first place.  But it would be nice to have some scripture discussions too.  Maybe we could have a separate area for that?

 

I don't think atheists would be under condemnation more than anyone else for getting it wrong- after all that is what the spirit world is for.   Were I still an atheist, and I woke up in the spirit world, I think it would be a good time to re-consider that position. ;)

MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

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What is meaning?

 

A human invention.   WE give life meaning because we value it- AS WE SHOULD. 

 

 

That is why a universe without life is meaningless. 

 

Perhaps God fined tuned the universe as we know it, we do not know, but it is an interesting possibility. 

 

Alan Guth said, "in the multiverse, life will evolve only in very rare regions where the local laws of physics just happen to have the properties needed for life, giving a simple explanation for why the observed universe appears to have just the right properties for the evolution of life. The incredibly small value of the cosmological constant is a telling example of a feature that seems to be needed for life, but for which an explanation from fundamental physics is painfully lacking." 

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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That is why a universe without life is meaningless. 

 

Perhaps God fined tuned the universe as we know it, we do not know, but it is an interesting possibility. 

 

Alan Guth said, "in the multiverse, life will evolve only in very rare regions where the local laws of physics just happen to have the properties needed for life, giving a simple explanation for why the observed universe appears to have just the right properties for the evolution of life. The incredibly small value of the cosmological constant is a telling example of a feature that seems to be needed for life, but for which an explanation from fundamental physics is painfully lacking." 

I don't disagree, but your statement is a tautology.  Of course without life the universe is "meaningless" because only humans understand what "meaning" is.  We CREATE meaning.

 

If rocks understood "meaning" I am sure they would disagree and think they could do quite well without us.

 

The whole argument that only portions of the universe have been "crated for life" has a flip side, that those portions NOT "created for life" then have no meaning.  If one wants to play with words one could then ponder why so much of the universe has no meaning.

 

One might as well debate how the substance of bread can change into flesh while retaining the appearances of bread.

 

Just to make it clear, I am personally spiritually certain that indeed the universe was organized for us.  But there is no argument which shows that, no observation which does not beg the question from the beginning.  "Meaning" is a human invention- how "lucky" it is that God is a human also and sees it our way.  ;)

MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

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The whole argument that only portions of the universe have been "crated for life" has a flip side, that those portions NOT "created for life" then have no meaning.  If one wants to play with words one could then ponder why so much of the universe has no meaning.

 

We do not know if our universe is a multiverse, but our visible 47 billion (radius) light year universe has trillions of planets that could have intelligent life as we know it. What about the Earth? Do you believe the Earth is meaningless? There are huge parts of the planet Earth that do not have life. 

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mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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We do not know if our universe is a multiverse, but our visible 47 billion (radius) light year universe has trillions of planets that could have intelligent life as we know it. What about the Earth? Do you believe the Earth is meaningless? There are huge parts of the planet Earth that do not have life. 

That's ok.  You are not understanding me.  Of course I believe the earth has meaning. I SAID THAT.  No need to discuss it farther I guess I am not being clear.

MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

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That's ok.  You are not understanding me.  Of course I believe the earth has meaning. I SAID THAT.  No need to discuss it farther I guess I am not being clear.

 

I understand, observers give meaning to things, a universe without observers is meaningless. 

Silhouette Community Regular

Silhouette

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Deleted. DUH-ble post.

Edited by Silhouette
Silhouette Community Regular

Silhouette

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*sigh* It's too early in the morning.....

Edited by Silhouette
Silhouette Community Regular

Silhouette

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Yes, and if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there, does it make a sound?

Yes, it does. A person throws a baseball. There is no one there to catch it. Just because no one caught it doesn't mean the ball wasn't thrown.

Likewise, just because no one was there to catch the sound waves of the tree falling, doesn't mean there were no sound waves.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

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It bothers me that we're supposed to be there for our children, but God doesn't always if ever, do that with his.  Why does he not show himself more in our lives, is it a test?  Well I don't appreciate the test much, and wish I could understand the lack of being present. 

Edited by Tacenda
pogi Grand Master

pogi

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Yes, it does. A person throws a baseball. There is no one there to catch it. Just because no one caught it doesn't mean the ball wasn't thrown.

 

There may not have been a catcher, but there was an observer who witnessed the pitch.  Remove the observer and you could say that the ball was not thrown, because in this case, the observer was the actor. 

pogi Grand Master

pogi

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It bothers me that we're supposed to be there for our children, but God doesn't always if ever, do that with his.  Why does he not show himself more in our lives, is it a test?  Well I don't appreciate the test much, and wish I could understand the lack of being present. 

 

"For those who have eyes to see, let him see."  

 

God is present, are we?  I believe we all have eyes to see, but fall short of "letting" ourselves see by being present with God. 

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

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It bothers me that we're supposed to be there for our children, but God doesn't always if ever, do that with his.  Why does he not show himself more in our lives, is it a test?  Well I don't appreciate the test much, and wish I could understand the lack of being present. 

 

Yes this life is a test. To see for ourselves if we will do as our Heavenly Father commands. IE; We spend the first roughly 16 years of our lives learning how to drive a car. First we watch our parents; then we practice while they are present; then we take a written and driving test to see for ourselves if we can follow the rules of the road when they are not there with us.

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

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Not directly having God in our everyday decisions causes us to learn to act on our own intellect and become problem solvers on our own. It s a natural part of growth where we can learn better how to move and act on faith. It allows us a greater appreciation for hard work, overcoming hardship, etc. God really is there and as we become more faithful and spiritual he shows himself to us in more ways. Its also a safeguard to keep evil from encroaching on the Kingdom and corrupting the Kingdom of Heaven.

  • 2 weeks later...
pogi Grand Master

pogi

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I believe that an alien (our Father) created out planet, perhaps he created our known universe too

 

First of all, you watch WAY too much youtube ;)

 

Second, could the creator of a planet who has houses on almost every continent accurately be described as alien to it?  It is His planet, he is not "an alien."

MormonFreeThinker Mentor

MormonFreeThinker

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First of all, you watch WAY too much youtube ;)

 

In reality I don't,  I saw that video a long time ago,  I am actually a very busy person, perhaps I am the busiest person that participates here. To be honest I sometimes don't completely watch some videos I share :), but it is a good idea to share videos because they are easy to understand, academic papers are not.

 

 

Second, could the creator of a planet who has houses on almost every continent accurately be described as alien to it?  It is His planet, he is not "an alien."

 

God the Father is an alien because he was not born here. I use the word "alien" because it makes me sound smarter. 

 

What do you think about the fine-tuning argument? Here is a Paper that talks about the fine tuning of the universe. 

Edited by MormonFreeThinker
pogi Grand Master

pogi

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What do you think about the fine-tuning argument? Here is a Paper that talks about the fine tuning of the universe. 

 

That link only takes me to an abstract which doesn't tell me much about it.

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