The Very Reverent Garment Poll For Members

[KevinG]

Do you think that the merciful Father who protects us cares whether the garment is being worn?

 

Perhaps a real miracle occurred, and credit is being given to the wrong thing.

 

As far as real physical protection, there will be some natural protection from the elements simply because the garment is well...a garment. If I went sunbathing with only garments on (sorry for that image), would I get sunburned underneath the garment?

 

Listen to the film again.  It did a very good job of pointing out that many symbols serve to focus our faith.  If the garment itself has any physical properties that protect, that is besides the point.  

 

1 Ne. 17: 41.

  41 And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.

[JLHPROF]

What kind of protection are they? Spiritual and Symbolic - they would be that last thing you would remove to partake of sexual sin, so very symbolic.

 

Well, 9/20 voters seem to think - any protection is symbolic, based on covenants more than the garment.

4/20 voters think there can be a physical and spiritual protection.  3/20 think the garments offer actual spiritual protection.

 

I think that we need to review the promise made that it will be a protection from the destroyer and determine what ways the destroyer could harm us.  If Satan has the power to inflict harm, the garment has the power to protect us from it.  At least according to the temple ceremony.

[Rain]

I firmly believe that and would say that those who don't either didn't listen to or didn't believe the promise given in the temple. It's pretty clear.

Or maybe they just haven't caught everything in the temple yet. Was it President Kimball who said he was still learning things from the temple even though he was the prophet? I know I am still catching things after going through the temple for 24 years. Often when doing initiatory I will catch something and my mind will be caught up pondering it through the rest of the time there. Still listening, but listening to ideas and feelings the Lord is enlightening my mind with.

Or maybe it is clear to you, but not so clear to others.

[JLHPROF]

Or maybe they just haven't caught everything in the temple yet. Was it President Kimball who said he was still learning things from the temple even though he was the prophet? I know I am still catching things after going through the temple for 24 years. Often when doing initiatory I will catch something and my mind will be caught up pondering it through the rest of the time there. Still listening, but listening to ideas and feelings the Lord is enlightening my mind with.

Or maybe it is clear to you, but not so clear to others.

 

Maybe I'm bad, but I have a written copy of the temple ceremonies (they're not exactly hard to find)...I keep it locked away from prying eyes and study it at my own pace in addition to attending.  As you say, it is a lot to learn.  But I think wording wise I have a pretty good grounding.  Spiritually, I continue to learn every time I attend the temple.

 

So yes, the promises given with the garment are very clear.  Pretty inarguable actually.

Edited October 21, 2014 by JLHPROF

[VideoGameJunkie]

I wonder why we bury our dead endowed members in their temple robes and clothing. Is it so they will be nicely dressed when resurrected? Is it so when they reach the spirit world they'll be nicely dressed? I thought heaven was all white robes and the brightness of those robes indicating how worthy one is.

[KevinG]

I wonder why we bury our dead endowed members in their temple robes and clothing. Is it so they will be nicely dressed when resurrected? Is it so when they reach the spirit world they'll be nicely dressed? I thought heaven was all white robes and the brightness of those robes indicating how worthy one is.

 

Given Joseph F Smith's account its so we wont waste any time getting to work as soon as we are resurrected.  

[mormonnewb]

I believe the primary and practical purpose of the garment is to remind us of our covenants, and protect us from harm by keeping us modest, and faithful to the guidance of Heavenly Father.  

 

 

This is the full extent of the teaching that I received with regards to the garments.  Are the other beliefs about the protective power of the garments taught in primary/seminary?  Or are they past teachings that are no longer emphasized?  Or did I fall asleep one time too many in Sunday School?

[mfbukowski]

This is the full extent of the teaching that I received with regards to the garments.  Are the other beliefs about the protective power of the garments taught in primary/seminary?  Or are they past teachings that are no longer emphasized?  Or did I fall asleep one time too many in Sunday School?

The bottom line on all this, is that all that is known about this is said in the initiators rites. Anything more or less is pure speculation.

And of course there is personal revelation.

[mfbukowski]

Maybe I'm bad, but I have a written copy of the temple ceremonies (they're not exactly hard to find)...I keep it locked away from prying eyes and study it at my own pace in addition to attending. As you say, it is a lot to learn. But I think wording wise I have a pretty good grounding. Spiritually, I continue to learn every time I attend the temple.

So yes, the promises given with the garment are very clear. Pretty inarguable actually.

The best way to learn it is to become an ordinance worker. That is not only authorised but encouraged

I get to not only memorize those words, but to pronounce them upon others weekly. It's a great blessing.

Edited October 22, 2014 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

This is the full extent of the teaching that I received with regards to the garments.  Are the other beliefs about the protective power of the garments taught in primary/seminary?  Or are they past teachings that are no longer emphasized?  Or did I fall asleep one time too many in Sunday School?

 

The full extent of teaching on the protective power is contained in the blessing pronounced when the garment is given.  Anything else is speculation.  But since the blessing includes protection from the destroyer, it's much more than just "keeping us modest".

If it's an option for the destroyer to harm you, it's an option for the garment to protect you.

At least, if you believe the temple.

[JLHPROF]

It kind of saddens me that 50% of those surveyed believe the garment serves no protective purpose, only inasmuch as it reminds us to keep our covenants.

 

People have every right to their beliefs, but this actually makes me sad.

[KevinG]

It kind of saddens me that 50% of those surveyed believe the garment serves no protective purpose, only inasmuch as it reminds us to keep our covenants.

 

People have every right to their beliefs, but this actually makes me sad.

It kind of saddens me that 50% of those surveyed believe the garment serves no protective purpose, only inasmuch as it reminds us to keep our covenants.

 

People have every right to their beliefs, but this actually makes me sad.

While your discussion has given me some good things to ponder, don't read too much into a survey question. In order to determine what individuals think the word protection means in the survey you would need to follow up with open ended discussion. For example while I do believe the garment provides physical protection, that does not mean I think the composition of the poly cotton fiber comprising the garment has any supernormal physical properties that another non-garment pair of similar construction would not have.

Take heart- this is probably more about the limitations of written communication and surveys than it is disbelief.

[JLHPROF]

While your discussion has given me some good things to ponder, don't read too much into a survey question. In order to determine what individuals think the word protection means in the survey you would need to follow up with open ended discussion. For example while I do believe the garment provides physical protection, that does not mean I think the composition of the poly cotton fiber comprising the garment has any supernormal physical properties that another non-garment pair of similar construction would not have.

Take heart- this is probably more about the limitations of written communication and surveys than it is disbelief.

 

It's true.  When it comes to the garment I believe Joseph F. Smith.

 

"The Lord has given unto us garments of the holy priesthood, and you know what that means. And yet there are those of us who mutilate them, in order that we may follow the foolish, vain and indecent practices of the world.

In order that such people may imitate the fashions, they will not hesitate to mutilate that which should be held by them the most sacred of all things in the world, next to their own virtue, next to their own purity of life. They should hold these things that God has given unto them sacred, unchanged and unaltered from the very pattern in which God gave them."

[KevinG]

It's true. When it comes to the garment I believe Joseph F. Smith.

"The Lord has given unto us garments of the holy priesthood, and you know what that means. And yet there are those of us who mutilate them, in order that we may follow the foolish, vain and indecent practices of the world.

In order that such people may imitate the fashions, they will not hesitate to mutilate that which should be held by them the most sacred of all things in the world, next to their own virtue, next to their own purity of life. They should hold these things that God has given unto them sacred, unchanged and unaltered from the very pattern in which God gave them."

I agree and do not argue your understanding. My point is that your question did not make the point as clearly as the Prophet and therefore may not be used to draw the strong conclusion that members don't believe in the protection of the garment. Post that quote and ask again if people believe it, and you will likely get a much different answer than you did to your original survey question. The weakness is in language, perception, and survey methodologies, not the principle for which you are trying to measure understanding. Edited October 23, 2014 by KevinG

[sunstoned]

Well, 9/20 voters seem to think - any protection is symbolic, based on covenants more than the garment.

4/20 voters think there can be a physical and spiritual protection.  3/20 think the garments offer actual spiritual protection.

 

I think that we need to review the promise made that it will be a protection from the destroyer and determine what ways the destroyer could harm us.  If Satan has the power to inflict harm, the garment has the power to protect us from it.  At least according to the temple ceremony.

The temple garment and the temple ceremony have been revised many times and modified to mesh better with current society. Just in my lifetime the garment has been modified and updated to be more accommodating with modern clothing, and the temple ceremony has been changed many times to reflect a more open and accepting viewpoint.  This tells me that both are symbolic and we should not get hung up on specific verbiage, because it is likely to change in the future. 

[KevinG]

The temple garment and the temple ceremony have been revised many times and modified to mesh better with current society. Just in my lifetime the garment has been modified and updated to be more accommodating with modern clothing, and the temple ceremony has been changed many times to reflect a more open and accepting viewpoint.  This tells me that both are symbolic and we should not get hung up on specific verbiage, because it is likely to change in the future.

I was facinated when much of the symbolism more appropriate to a 19th century agrarian society was updated in the 1990s. Yet the principles and covenants remained the same. It was a valuable lesson in the hierarchy of symbolism and truth for me.

[JLHPROF]

The temple garment and the temple ceremony have been revised many times and modified to mesh better with current society. Just in my lifetime the garment has been modified and updated to be more accommodating with modern clothing, and the temple ceremony has been changed many times to reflect a more open and accepting viewpoint.  This tells me that both are symbolic and we should not get hung up on specific verbiage, because it is likely to change in the future. 

 

It tells me that we are fulfilling prophecy...Isaiah 24:5 and ignored Joseph Smith instructions when he restored the ordinances.

 

But who am I to have questions...

[KevinG]

It tells me that we are fulfilling prophecy...Isaiah 24:5 and ignored Joseph Smith instructions when he restored the ordinances.

 

But who am I to have questions...

You are good to ask... I'm not convinced the temple ordinances are closed canon any more than the doctrine and covenants. Again much food for thought. I appreciate your views even if mine are different.

[mormonnewb]

It tells me that we are fulfilling prophecy...Isaiah 24:5 and ignored Joseph Smith instructions when he restored the ordinances.

But who am I to have questions...

I agree that it seems strange that we posit that the Great Apostasy was caused IN PART by the changing of sacred ordinances and yet, we've done the same thing, but what choice did we have?

For example, BY's garments just weren't going to work in the 21st century. We'd stick out like lepers, or worse, missionaries. Seriously, we'd all be dressed in full suits and Elizabethan dresses at the company picnic. We'd be just clean-shaven, English-speaking Amish, only distinguished by the fact that we'd be the ones playing with our iPhones during sacrament.

The same is true with certain (not to be specified) aspects of the temple ceremony. We already have had people post secretly-recorded videos of the ceremony online. However, it has yet to "go viral" because it is simply not that compelling; that is, from a non-believer's standpoint. However, some now-defunct parts of the ceremony might have been more salacious; that is, to those without the proper understanding of their meaning.

So, I think you can choose to view these changes as examples of the prophetic wisdom of our leaders -- that they were able to see societal trends as far as dress and social media so that they were able to make slight COSMETIC changes to preserve more important sacred rites.

Or you can join us over here on the Dark Side. The force is strong with you, Young Prof!

[BlueDreams]

For the first one I put the second as well as other. I didn't actually fully agree with the second, but it was close enough that I put it with a caveat that I'm not willing to say what it will or won't do or why it's protective. My personal experience taught me that the Garment is sacred as part of my endowment and that after which it made me more sensitive to things that offend the Spirit. I feel physically safer with them on in general, though much of that is because it reminds me that God is with me and the promises He's made me moreso than an actual protective power coming from the Garment itself. 

 

The second I've never thought about. I assume it was revealed in someway, never thought of how or why or any of that.

 

The third I put revelation, practical reasons, and other. Most of these are based on assumptions rather than an outright knowledge about anything. So I put other, because I have no idea if there's other reasons but assume there could be.

[KevinG]

We'd stick out like lepers, or worse, missionaries!

Just caught this. Very well played!

[The Nehor]

The thing that annoys me about garments is vanity sizing.

I am a pretty average sized guy at 5 11 and 170 lbs and when I buy clothing most brands I get medium and in a few I get large sizes. In garments I have to buy small. Mediums are very loose and larges are tents. Are they clueless about sizes? Are we trying to coddle the overweight for some reason and convince them they are not that obese? What is the logic behind it?

[JLHPROF]

The thing that annoys me about garments is vanity sizing.

I am a pretty average sized guy at 5 11 and 170 lbs and when I buy clothing most brands I get medium and in a few I get large sizes. In garments I have to buy small. Mediums are very loose and larges are tents. Are they clueless about sizes? Are we trying to coddle the overweight for some reason and convince them they are not that obese? What is the logic behind it?

 

Because for some of us 5 10 guys, 170lbs is firmly in our past...

[The Nehor]

Because for some of us 5 10 guys, 170lbs is firmly in our past...

In which case you go up a size or two like other clothing does. It just seems like our sizing is very off. When I was in my mid 20s and got depressed over a broken engagement and ballooned up to 220 I was wearing medium garments when a medium shirt would have cut off circulation and been indecent exposure due to the tight fit (in the 'ewwww' indecent way not the sexy 'ohhhh' indecent way).

[JLHPROF]

I thought since this thread seems to keep on going that I would provide some references for each of the questions on the poll:

I think I'll start with question 2 because it's quicker if I get called away (question 1 might take more research).

 

Question 2 - Origin of the garments

 

Joseph received them by revelation

 

The Lord has given us garments of the Holy Priesthood, and you know what that means...They should hold these things that God has given unto them sacred unchanged and unaltered from the very pattern which God gave them.

And "The Saints should know that the pattern of endowment garments was revealed from Heaven and that the blessings promised in connection with wearing them will not be realized if any unauthorized change is made in their form or in the manner of wearing them.  - Joseph F. Smith

 

 

Joseph duplicated them from clothing he saw worn by heavenly visitors

 

It was while they were living in Nauvoo that the Prophet came to my grandmother, who was a seamstress by trade, and told her that he had seen the angel Moroni with the garments on, and asked her to assist him in cutting out the garments. They spread unbleached muslin out on the table and he told her how to cut it out. She had to cut the third pair, however, before he said it was satisfactory.  - James Allred History

 

"but let me inform you that when Peter came and sat in the Temple in Kirtland, he had on a neat woolen garment, nicely adjusted round the neck.' - Heber C. Kimball

 

Joseph was directly taught how to make them & their design by heavenly visitors

 

The whole garment to be a covering and a protection from the enemy.  The sleeves reaching to the wrist, and to the ankles.  This pattern was given to Joseph Smith by two heavenly beings.  - Zebedee Coltrin

 

The first garments were made by Eliza R. Snow and Zina Young. They were cut out by the Prophet Joseph Smith and under his direction. They then asked him who showed him how, and he said. "An angel of the Lord." He stood over them while they were cut out. He also said, "The angel Moroni drew aside his robe and showed his marks."  - George Albert Smith

 

Their design was inspired, but not eternal (heavenly) in nature.

 

President Heber J. Grant  issued a letter on June 14, 1923 stating that “no fixed pattern of the temple garment has ever been given”