Avatar4321 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 If I remember correctly sniffer was predicting that the Spirit would withdrawal at this conference because of his excommunication. While I have not had a chance to catch it all, the Spirit has been powerful in the parts i have caught. What say ye? Any reaction from him and his group?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Elder Bruce R. McConkie, October 1984 General Conference: The Church is like a great caravan—organized, prepared, following an appointed course, with its captains of tens and captains of hundreds all in place. What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on. Is there a ravine to cross, a miry mud hole to pull through, a steep grade to climb? So be it. The oxen are strong and the teamsters wise. The caravan moves on. Are there storms that rage along the way, floods that wash away the bridges, deserts to cross, and rivers to ford? Such is life in this fallen sphere. The caravan moves on. Ahead is the celestial city, the eternal Zion of our God, where all who maintain their position in the caravan shall find food and drink and rest. Thank God that the caravan moves on! Edited October 5, 2014 by Kenngo1969 2
sethpayne Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 If I remember correctly sniffer was predicting that the Spirit would withdrawal at this conference because of his excommunication. While I have not had a chance to catch it all, the Spirit has been powerful in the parts i have caught. What say ye? Any reaction from him and his group? His claim was that authority was lost at the last conference. No prediction was made about any future conference. At least as far as I know based off of reading his recent talks.
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 His claim was that authority was lost at the last conference. No prediction was made about any future conference. At least as far as I know based off of reading his recent talks. That is kind of petty. I'd like to believe that if some local leaders screwed up and kicked me out of the Church for unjust reasons (I am in no way implying Snuffer fits this description) that I would not be so self-centered that I would glory in the idea that everyone else in the Church would be cut off from spiritual leadership because I suffered.
mormonnewb Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Elder Bruce R. McConkie, October 1984 General Conference:Good old McConkie! By the way, isn't his metaphor of a great caravan in exact opposition to the Savoir's metaphors of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son? One would really think that THREE separate examples would have been enough for McConkie to get the point. Edited October 5, 2014 by mormonnewb
changed Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Good old McConkie! By the way, isn't his metaphor of a great caravan in exact opposition to the Savoir's metaphors of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son.Did McConkie ever get one right?I don't remember the flock being torn apart and disbanded due to one lost sheep in the Savior's metaphor... perhaps you could provide the ref on that? 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Popular Post Posted October 5, 2014 Good old McConkie! By the way, isn't his metaphor of a great caravan in exact opposition to the Savoir's metaphors of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son? One would really think that THREE separate examples would have been enough for McConkie to get the point. No, it is not in opposition, let alone exact opposition. The parables of the Savior were about finding the lost and fallen which the Church does. The parable of the caravan is about not choosing to get left behind. Parables are not exact. Or are you suggesting that finding the lost sheep requires stopping the caravan, halting the progress of the Church, and putting everything on hold because someone stamps their feet and refuses to go on. The parable of the Lost Sheep, the coin, and the prodigal do not suggest that any of them fought the rescuer nor does the parable of the caravan suggest that when there are defectors that we should shun them and not let them rejoin. Nice try though. 7
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Good old McConkie! By the way, isn't his metaphor of a great caravan in exact opposition to the Savoir's metaphors of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son? One would really think that THREE separate examples would have been enough for McConkie to get the point.Uh, no. Where do you get this stuff? 1
Glenn101 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Good old McConkie! By the way, isn't his metaphor of a great caravan in exact opposition to the Savoir's metaphors of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son.Did McConkie ever get one right? I think that you whiffed on this one. McKonkie's metaphor is not in opposition to those of Christ at all. There will be lost sheep along the way, and the rest of the church will try to help them find themselves. Some will waste their lives along he way and return when they have nothing left in their tank spiritually. But the Church of Jesus Christ will continue, if you remember the metaphor of the "stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth." In addition to that metaphor, read McKomkie's hymn, "I believe in Christ" to see what else he got right. Glenn 1
mormonnewb Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) I don't remember the flock being torn apart and disbanded due to one lost sheep in the Savior's metaphor... perhaps you could provide the ref on that?Who said anything about the flock being torn apart?In McConkie's vision, the flock simply moves on when someone falls into trouble or is taken by a predator. Christ tells us that the good shepherd goes out in search of the one. Christ tells us that the woman doesn't just count her found coins but stops until she finds the one that is lost. Christ tells us that HF anxious AWAITS the return of his prodigal son. In Christ's vision, NONE are lost. On the other hand, McConkie is about cutting his losses.Oh he of little faith! Edited October 5, 2014 by mormonnewb 1
changed Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Who said anything about the flock being torn apart?Sorry, I thought this thread "was predicting that the Spirit would withdrawal at this conference" or something like that?Perhaps the moral of the story was the Savior had enough trust in the 99 that he was able to leave them to themselves? ... although I'm not sure how much I like that moral. .... in any event, put your own airmask on first...I've always been a fan of waiting for someone to knock, rather than Satan's plan of forcing people to be good... "HF anxious AWAITS" That's the point - you wait for them. Edited October 5, 2014 by changed
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Sorry, I thought this thread "was predicting that the Spirit would withdrawal at this conference" or something like that?Perhaps the moral of the story was the Savior had enough trust in the 99 that he was able to leave them to themselves? ... although I'm not sure how much I like that moral. .... in any event, put your own airmask on first. My favorite interpretation is that the existence of the 99 was sarcasm as all are really the lost 1 and the Savior was taking the questioners to task for their silly self-assurance. 1
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Who said anything about the flock being torn apart?In McConkie's vision, the flock simply moves on when someone falls into trouble or is taken by a predator. Christ tells us that the good shepherd goes out in search of the one. Christ tells us that the woman doesn't just count her found coins but stops until she finds the one that is lost. Christ tells us that HF anxious AWAITS the return of his prodigal son. In Christ's vision, NONE are lost. On the other hand, McConkie is about cutting his losses.Oh he of little faith! Yes, the Savior made it clear that none would be lost ever. That is why he gave the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats to show that.....oh wait....no....you're wrong. 2
Glenn101 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Who said anything about the flock being torn apart?In McConkie's vision, the flock simply moves on when someone falls into trouble or is taken by a predator. Christ tells us that the good shepherd goes out in search of the one. Christ tells us that the woman doesn't just count her found coins but stops until she finds the one that is lost. Christ tells us that HF anxious AWAITS the return of his prodigal son. In Christ's vision, NONE are lost. On the other hand, McConkie is about cutting his losses.Oh he of little faith! You are grossly misunderstanding McConkie and his particular message. He was not an advocate of leaving those who get lost in the dust. The Savior's message was not that none would be lost. Glenn Edited October 5, 2014 by Glenn101 1
mormonnewb Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 You are grossly misunderstanding McConkie and his particular message. He was not an advocate of leaving those who get lost in the dust.The Savior's message was not that none would be lost.GlennHere is what McConkie said: "Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on."What am I missing?
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Here is what McConkie said: "Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on."What am I missing? Are you saying that the caravan should eat the dissenters instead of letting the predators get them to preserve their food supplies? Makes sense. 1
mormonnewb Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Yes, the Savior made it clear that none would be lost ever. That is why he gave the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats to show that.....oh wait....no....you're wrong.Yes, CHRIST will separate the sheep from the goats but that isn't our job. Our job is to TRY to save them ALL and let Christ sort them out (ie, the parable of the wheat and tares).In fact, our current prophet believes that as well as he is constantly reminded us to reach out to the less active. In my short tenure, I don't remember a single talk in which he has said, "As for those who have fallen away, forget 'em. The caravan is moving on, baby!"
Glenn101 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Here is what McConkie said: "Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on."What am I missing? You are missing context. The context of the talk. The context of the question, "Test ten: Am I so living that I will be saved in the kingdom of God?" The talk is all about what each of us personally need to ask ourselves in relation to the gospel. We have the choice to either stay with the caravan and go where it is heading (the celestial kingdom), or to fall by the wayside. Here is a tidbit on how McConkie felt about seeking out those who have fallen away. From a talk in 1975 entitled "Only an Elder": "Our great need, the charge that is laid upon us, is to perfect the elders so they can feed the flock, lest the sheep perish for want of the word of God. The number one need within the Church today is to reclaim the elders so they, in turn, can “feed the flock of God.” What are the resources for saving elders? There is no secret formula. We cannot wave a wand and reclaim inactive people without effort and without struggle. But we do have the whole program of the Church, and somewhere within its framework is something which will appeal to every person who is willing to let the blessings of the gospel come into his life." Glenn Edited October 5, 2014 by Glenn101 1
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Yes, CHRIST will separate the sheep from the goats but that isn't our job. Our job is to TRY to save them ALL and let Christ sort them out (ie, the parable of the wheat and tares).In fact, our current prophet believes that as well as he is constantly reminded us to reach out to the less active. In my short tenure, I don't remember a single talk in which he has said, "As for those who have fallen away, forget 'em. The caravan is moving on, baby!"You are right. There has never been a talk that encouraged such a thing. So why are you insisting now that there was? 1
strappinglad Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Christ spoke in parables using situations that His audience well understood. Few of us have been involved in the movement of a large herd of sheep or cattle. Few have headed an expedition similar to a wagon train. Those who have can see the nuances of BRM's metaphor. In the case of a herd of cattle moving through dangerous and hostile land, if a cow or calf wanders off, a rider is sent to bring them back to the herd. The herd is not stopped to wait. The rider makes his best effort to find and return the lost ones but when darkness falls and " no work can be done" , the rider must go back to the group. Thirty years ago there would have been many more in the congregation that had personal experience about such situations. If our background knowledge is incomplete for statements made 30 years ago, how much more careful must we be when trying to interpret those from 150 or 1500 years ago. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Who said anything about the flock being torn apart?In McConkie's vision, the flock simply moves on when someone falls into trouble or is taken by a predator. Christ tells us that the good shepherd goes out in search of the one. Christ tells us that the woman doesn't just count her found coins but stops until she finds the one that is lost. Christ tells us that HF anxious AWAITS the return of his prodigal son. In Christ's vision, NONE are lost. On the other hand, McConkie is about cutting his losses.Oh he of little faith!Yeh, but where does Judas fit into that compassionate scenario? 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 If I remember correctly sniffer was predicting that the Spirit would withdrawal at this conference because of his excommunication. While I have not had a chance to catch it all, the Spirit has been powerful in the parts i have caught. What say ye? Any reaction from him and his group?Maybe Denver Snuffer has been snorting too much snuff, or something. 1
Glenn101 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Christ spoke in parables using situations that His audience well understood. Few of us have been involved in the movement of a large herd of sheep or cattle. Few have headed an expedition similar to a wagon train. Those who have can see the nuances of BRM's metaphor. In the case of a herd of cattle moving through dangerous and hostile land, if a cow or calf wanders off, a rider is sent to bring them back to the herd. The herd is not stopped to wait. The rider makes his best effort to find and return the lost ones but when darkness falls and " no work can be done" , the rider must go back to the group.Thirty years ago there would have been many more in the congregation that had personal experience about such situations. If our background knowledge is incomplete for statements made 30 years ago, how much more careful must we be when trying to interpret those from 150 or 1500 years ago. Of course BRM's metaphor was not perfect, but if one reads his talk, the context is clear. Those who do not obtain a testimony of Jesus Christ and the restoration and work to strengthen that testimony are in danger of falling by the wayside. Efforts will be made to reclaim them, but if those efforts are rebuffed, they will be left behind, maybe not in outer darkness, but in one of the lesser kingdoms. The choice is up to each individual. Glenn
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Who said anything about the flock being torn apart?In McConkie's vision, the flock simply moves on when someone falls into trouble or is taken by a predator. Christ tells us that the good shepherd goes out in search of the one. Christ tells us that the woman doesn't just count her found coins but stops until she finds the one that is lost. Christ tells us that HF anxious AWAITS the return of his prodigal son. In Christ's vision, NONE are lost. On the other hand, McConkie is about cutting his losses.Oh he of little faith!Clearly we should be looking to you for spiritual leadership instead.
Recommended Posts