Jesus Christ Worshiped In Ancient America?

[Bart Burk]

I can't find any evidence Jesus Christ was worshiped in ancient America.  The Quetzalcoatl myth just doesn't seem to connect at all with anything Christian.

 

But let us imagine that Jesus Christ were found to have been worshiped in ancient America.  Would that mean we would be forced to accept the Book of Mormon as true?  My answer would be no.  It would still require faith to connect the Book of Mormon to Christ's ministry in the Americas.  It might mean we have more evidence of the Book of Mormon, but that evidence alone would not be enough to undeniably make Joseph Smith's claims valid.    

[nosmelone]

I would agree with you that if some sort of evidence showing worship of Christ in the Americas did surface it would in now way prove the Book of Mormon and remove the need for faith.  But It would make the Book of Mormon that much more plausible in the eyes of the general public and to believers.  I guess the problem we face is, what would be deemed as acceptable evidence?  The whole Quetzalcoatl, Kukulcan, Gukumatz or lost white brother (of the Hopi) all face the same problem of being post conquest.  Even if any of these can be traced to a pre-conquest origin who's to say if it was actually meant to be Jesus rather than some maize god?  There are a few books on the visits of a strange white God visiting the America's but I wonder what kind of evidence would be needed to recognize the worship of Christ in the America's?

[Rodeo]

The Jews still deny Christ came already despite mountains of evidence.

[Robert F. Smith]

..................................................................................  

................... The whole Quetzalcoatl, Kukulcan, Gukumatz or lost white brother (of the Hopi) all face the same problem of being post conquest.  ............................................................

Pres. John Taylor said:

 

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. But the history of the former has been handed down to us through an impure Lamanitish source, which has sadly disfigured and perverted the original incidents and teachings of the Savior's life and ministry. (Mediation and Atonement [1892], 194,201)

 

The feathered-serpent deity-motif was known in Mesoamerica as early as 900 B.C. (Olmec), likewise prominently used at Teotihuacan ca. 1st century B.C. to 1st century A.D., and well-known throughout Mesoamerica by the late Classic (600-900 A.D.).  He was known to the late-arriving Nahuatl people as Quetzalcoatl (900-1519 A.D.), but known to the Maya as Kulkulcan or Gukumatz (Popol Vuh), all three terms meaning “Feathered-serpent.”  This is all pre-Conquest.  Late stories of Quetzalcoatl’s birth from a virgin, his descent to the netherworld, his resurrection, and the like, cannot be proven to have been pre-Conquest.

 

So.  Would Jesus Christ be conflated with the Mesoamerican feathered-serpent?  Diane Wirth and Brant Gardner deny that it happened, but let’s take a closer look:

 

Wirth”s reading of the KJV English text on the fiery/brazen serpents in Numbers 21:6-9 (Deut 8:15), for example, misled her into thinking that there could be no Quetzalcoatl connection with Mosaic tradition because she believed that (1) they are not winged or feathered serpents, and that (2) the Jaredites left the Old World long before Moses came on the scene.  Indeed, she concluded that “[t]here is no solid empirical evidence that the Feathered Serpent represented Christ before he visited the New World,” whatever conclusions are to be drawn from the Nephite tradition of “fiery flying serpents” which (she notes) was brought from the Old World at about the same time that something similar appears on Olmec Monument 19 at La Venta.  We might well quibble over Christ as an antitype of the brazen serpent (after all, a Jewish interpretation of Nehushtan would deny such a connection), but we cannot ignore the frequent 2nd and 1st century B.C. portrayals of Yahweh as bird-headed and serpent-footed, nor can we ignore the promise in Malachi 3:20 (KJV 4:2) that “the Sun of Righteousness will arise with healing in his wings.”  The glyptic art of the ancient Near East is rife with winged sun-disks – often accompanied by serpentine uraei.

 

The real problem begins when we note that, in addition to I Nephi 17:41 (“fiery flying serpents”) and II Nephi 25:20, Alma 33:19 actually speaks of the Mosaic serpent as a “type” (of Christ) already in early 1st century B.C. – all of which are easily found cross-referenced with the late 1st century B.C. Helaman 8:14-15 in current LDS editions of Scripture.  How did Wirth miss that?

 

Even more important than fudging on the dates, however, what would Wirth have said had she known that the Hebrew words for “fiery serpents” in Num 21 are nehašim serafim, the same seraf appearing in Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6 as a “winged serpent/dragon,” and the serafim in Isa 6:2-6 (∥ II Nephi 16:2-6) as celestial beings with six wings each?  Whether we are to take such creatures as “figurative” there and in Revelation 7:4 (as suggested in D&C 77:2-4, and perhaps in 109:79 “bright, shining seraphs”) and elsewhere is one question.  But there should be no question about their winged nature, nor about the antiquity of such composite, winged creatures.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[nosmelone]

Robert, thanks for that.  I myself am a believer that Quetzalcoatl is Christ as well.  I completely agree with John Taylor on the above quote.  I know that Brant Gardner has written much against that idea.  I feel that it is possible that the conquest influence has highly effected the traditional stories of the Mayan's and Aztecs and even the Pueblo and others in the North.  But it seems ironic to me that each of these groups had a tradition of a returning god. I am more familiar with the Hopi long lost white brother than any of the others and it seems to me that he would fit quite well with what we know as Christ.  I unfortunatly havn't been able to dig up enough history of the tradition to use it to rebuttle any of the writings of Gardner or Wirth on this subject.  With that said I am a huge fan of both Gardner and Wirth so hopefully if I ever am able to find something contrary to their teachings in regards to the Hopi long lost white brother I will forward that to them to review.

[Guest]

I can't find any evidence Jesus Christ was worshiped in ancient America.  The Quetzalcoatl myth just doesn't seem to connect at all with anything Christian.

 

But let us imagine that Jesus Christ were found to have been worshiped in ancient America.  Would that mean we would be forced to accept the Book of Mormon as true?  My answer would be no.  It would still require faith to connect the Book of Mormon to Christ's ministry in the Americas.  It might mean we have more evidence of the Book of Mormon, but that evidence alone would not be enough to undeniably make Joseph Smith's claims valid.

The Book of Mormon is only about one group of people, whom we don't even know their location. When or "if" we find it we will know.

[mfbukowski]

I can't find any evidence Jesus Christ was worshiped in ancient America.  The Quetzalcoatl myth just doesn't seem to connect at all with anything Christian.

 

But let us imagine that Jesus Christ were found to have been worshiped in ancient America.  Would that mean we would be forced to accept the Book of Mormon as true?  My answer would be no.  It would still require faith to connect the Book of Mormon to Christ's ministry in the Americas.  It might mean we have more evidence of the Book of Mormon, but that evidence alone would not be enough to undeniably make Joseph Smith's claims valid.

So by your logic, all historical evidence is irrelevant, including that for Catholicism.

Golly- we agree! None of it could prove that the person Jesus died for our sins.

Oh well- so what? This is news?

[mfbukowski]

Pres. John Taylor said:

 

The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. But the history of the former has been handed down to us through an impure Lamanitish source, which has sadly disfigured and perverted the original incidents and teachings of the Savior's life and ministry. (Mediation and Atonement [1892], 194,201)

 

The feathered-serpent deity-motif was known in Mesoamerica as early as 900 B.C. (Olmec), likewise prominently used at Teotihuacan ca. 1st century B.C. to 1st century A.D., and well-known throughout Mesoamerica by the late Classic (600-900 A.D.).  He was known to the late-arriving Nahuatl people as Quetzalcoatl (900-1519 A.D.), but known to the Maya as Kulkulcan or Gukumatz (Popal Vuh), all three terms meaning “Feathered-serpent.”  This is all pre-Conquest.  Late stories of Quetzalcoatl’s birth from a virgin, his descent to the netherworld, his resurrection, and the like, cannot be proven to have been pre-Conquest.

 

So.  Would Jesus Christ be conflated with the Mesoamerican feathered-serpent?  Diane Wirth and Brant Gardner deny that it happened, but let’s take a closer look:

 

Wirth”s reading of the KJV English text on the fiery/brazen serpents in Numbers 21:6-9 (Deut 8:15), for example, misled her into thinking that there could be no Quetzalcoatl connection with Mosaic tradition because she believed that (1) they are not winged or feathered serpents, and that (2) the Jaredites left the Old World long before Moses came on the scene.  Indeed, she concluded that “[t]here is no solid empirical evidence that the Feathered Serpent represented Christ before he visited the New World,” whatever conclusions are to be drawn from the Nephite tradition of “fiery flying serpents” which (she notes) was brought from the Old World at about the same time that something similar appears on Olmec Monument 19 at La Venta.  We might well quibble over Christ as an antitype of the brazen serpent (after all, a Jewish interpretation of Nehushtan would deny such a connection), but we cannot ignore the frequent 2nd and 1st century B.C. portrayals of Yahweh as bird-headed and serpent-footed, nor can we ignore the promise in Malachi 3:20 (KJV 4:2) that “the Sun of Righteousness will arise with healing in his wings.”  The glyptic art of the ancient Near East is rife with winged sun-disks – often accompanied by serpentine uraei.

 

The real problem begins when we note that, in addition to I Nephi 17:41 (“fiery flying serpents”) and II Nephi 25:20, Alma 33:19 actually speaks of the Mosaic serpent as a “type” (of Christ) already in early 1st century B.C. – all of which are easily found cross-referenced with the late 1st century B.C. Helaman 8:14-15 in current LDS editions

of Scripture.  How did Wirth miss that?

 

Even more important than fudging on the dates, however, what would Wirth have said had she known that the Hebrew words for “fiery serpents” in Num 21 are nehašim serafim, the same seraf appearing in Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6 as a “winged serpent/dragon,” and the serafim in Isa 6:2-6 (∥ II Nephi 16:2-6) as celestial beings with six wings each?  Whether we are to take such creatures as “figurative” there and in Revelation 7:4 (as suggested in D&C 77:2-4, and perhaps in 109:79 “bright, shining seraphs”) and elsewhere is one question.  But there should be no question about their winged nature, nor about the antiquity of such composite, winged creatures.

Bravo!

Even the Chrysler automobile uses this symbol- the Persian god Ahura Mazda, (Sun God) the US Air Force. etc etc. Circles with "wings" can be found atop many doors in various temples.

That symbol is totally pervasive in many many cultures. It is everywhere!

It really just makes sense- for the Sun to travel through the heavens, the ancient mind would conclude it must have wings. And as a god, it returns every morning, and is resurrected out of the dark underworld. And if one must have the power of resurrection, one must have the power surely of healing, since he can heal himself. Seems almost obvious that a returning god, the most powerful of them all, would be identified with the sun.

Just google "winged sun motif" and see what a variety you get!

Edited September 4, 2014 by mfbukowski

[erdoch]

I am not convinced about the Quetzalcoatl-Christ connection, but I imagine that when the Nephites were destroyed as a civilization that their religion was basically destroyed with them, other religions holding sway instead. Presumably, one could postulate slight influences of Nephite Christianity on Maya religion, or what have you, but none persuasive enough to actually prove anything. (Several of the religious parallels John L. Sorensen brings up in "Mormon's Codex" I consider less convincing, too diffusionist - though elsewhere in the book he does provide impressive geographical/historical/archaeological correspondences). 

 

The Mesoamerican archaeological record has much, much less to tell us than does the Ancient Near Eastern record - compare 4 pre-Columbian books, none reaching back into BM times, with literally *thousands* of documents in Bible lands for the Bible period. So I don't expect much direct evidence to show up at all for either Christianity or Nephites in the Americas. 

 

Other than the Book of Mormon.

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert, thanks for that.  I myself am a believer that Quetzalcoatl is Christ as well.  I completely agree with John Taylor on the above quote.  I know that Brant Gardner has written much against that idea.  I feel that it is possible that the conquest influence has highly effected the traditional stories of the Mayan's and Aztecs and even the Pueblo and others in the North.  But it seems ironic to me that each of these groups had a tradition of a returning god. I am more familiar with the Hopi long lost white brother than any of the others and it seems to me that he would fit quite well with what we know as Christ.  I unfortunatly havn't been able to dig up enough history of the tradition to use it to rebuttle any of the writings of Gardner or Wirth on this subject.  With that said I am a huge fan of both Gardner and Wirth so hopefully if I ever am able to find something contrary to their teachings in regards to the Hopi long lost white brother I will forward that to them to review.

I admire both Brant and Diane for their vast learning.  The only problem they have in this instance is a general lack of knowledge of ancient Near Eastern lore, and specifically of Classical Hebrew.

 

We all learn from each other.

[Robert F. Smith]

..............................................................

........................... Presumably, one could postulate slight influences of Nephite Christianity on Maya religion, or what have you, but none persuasive enough to actually prove anything. (Several of the religious parallels John L. Sorensen brings up in "Mormon's Codex" I consider less convincing, too diffusionist - though elsewhere in the book he does provide impressive geographical/historical/archaeological correspondences). 

 

...........................................................................

................................. So I don't expect much direct evidence to show up at all for either Christianity or Nephites in the Americas. 

 

Other than the Book of Mormon.

Actually, it is very important to take into account the old “Christianity,” Judaism, etc., in Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican legends and iconography:

 

A search of native pre-Columbian documents, iconography, and traditions provides some striking instances of the existence of practices and beliefs which are surprisingly congruent with aspects of Christianity.  For example,

 

(A)  Michael Coe of Yale has “read” the same story on ancient Mayan funerary pottery as found in the text of the Mayan Popol Vuh (which Coe insists is comparable to the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead) – a complex tale of Hero Twins, Hunahpu & Xbalanqué (and their father & uncle), at the center of elaborate rites of passage (ritual journey) from Creation, through Death (Xibalba), to Resurrection – and which is virtually the same as the well-known Old World mystery-religion sequence.  One might want to compare the ca. 100 A.D. Pre-Classic murals of San Bartolo, east of El Mirador, which have images of birth, death, and resurrection (with the Maize-god), and might compare it with the Popol Vuh.   Indeed, there was a very ancient resurrection cult built around the original Quetzalcoatl, as L. Sejourne has emphasized.

 

(B)  While Sorenson himself insists that the Mesoamerican crosses were not Christian symbols, but rather “represent doorways through which to reach ancestral spirits,” and while Vincent Malmström argues that this “frequently repeated artistic” motif of the Olmecs was a graphic representation of solstitial solar extremes, Allen Christenson says that, among the Maya, “the cross was adopted as the symbol of the pre-Columbian tree of life” (Yaxche).

 

©   Sacrifice & Communion: Slaughter of an innocent animal (or human) and the sharing of its flesh are central to Judeo-Christian and Mesoamerican tradition.

 

(D)  Afterlife: Even if not specifically Christian, Michael Graulich found compelling evidence of Paradise Lost & Regained, along with Death, Rebirth, and Reward or Punishment in Mesoamerican tradition.

 

(E)  Cosmology: “The Popol Vuh is a poetic statement of pre-contact beliefs that show surprising similarities to Biblical cosmology.”

 

For example, G. Willey & N. Hammond summarized the research conclusions of Arthur Miller and Nancy Farriss as follows:

 

They argue that Christian beliefs and iconography were not, at least in the Maya way of thinking, completely incompatible with old native beliefs and that the syncretistic results came not from bewilderment or misunderstanding but from an intellectual attempt on the part of the Maya to synthesize the old and the new (cf. J. E. S. Thompson 1970).

 

Thus, despite the European view of seeming incompatibility between Christian and pagan Maya concepts, “from a Maya point of view, . . such a combination may represent a perfectly coherent system,” i.e., “developing their own cult along lines already established.”

 

Farriss herself states:

 

Despite many similarities noted by Spanish missionaries to Mesoamerica between native and Christian religions, one they failed to note, or chose not to emphasize, was that similar rites of sacrifice and communion constituted the central rituals of both.  Slaughter of a blameless being (animal, human, divine, and combinations thereof) and the sharing of its flesh embodied the principal link between the natural and supernatural orders in both cases.

 

Citations of sources on request.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

The Jews still deny Christ came already despite mountains of evidence.

And they are still God's chosen people, now back after 2 millennia of absence.  The Messiah will eventually come directly to them and show them his wounds, and they will ask where he received them . . .

[BCSpace]

But let us imagine that Jesus Christ were found to have been worshiped in ancient America.  Would that mean we would be forced to accept the Book of Mormon as true?  My answer would be no.  It would still require faith to connect the Book of Mormon to Christ's ministry in the Americas.  It might mean we have more evidence of the Book of Mormon, but that evidence alone would not be enough to undeniably make Joseph Smith's claims valid.

 

 

Even if you witnessed first hand all the miracles and teachings of Jesus mentioned in all of scripture there would still not be any evidence from the standpoint of the physical sciences for you to believe Jesus is who he claimed to be and did what he claimed to do. Your belief and testimony could only come from the spiritual side which I also refer to as science.

[strappinglad]

If only the Spanish and their clergy had not been so efficient at destroying the hundreds of codices that likely contained much clarification of the rituals and beliefs of the native peoples. If  someone had just had the foresight to bury a record of the inhabitants.....

[Storm Rider]

Hello Bart, I think this world is about learning to live by faith.  John Paul II says as much in his encyclical "Fides et Ratio".  Regardless of how much historical "facts" are found, the concept of Jesus' sacrifice for us, the reality of ancient prophets and apostles, the truth of the gospel is all a matter of faith only.  

[Avatar4321]

All the more reason for us to ask God and trust Him to answer.

[Avatar4321]

If only the Spanish and their clergy had not been so efficient at destroying the hundreds of codices that likely contained much clarification of the rituals and beliefs of the native peoples. If  someone had just had the foresight to bury a record of the inhabitants.....

 

Who says they didn't?

[thesometimesaint]

I can't find any evidence Jesus Christ was worshiped in ancient America.  The Quetzalcoatl myth just doesn't seem to connect at all with anything Christian.

 

But let us imagine that Jesus Christ were found to have been worshiped in ancient America.  Would that mean we would be forced to accept the Book of Mormon as true?  My answer would be no.  It would still require faith to connect the Book of Mormon to Christ's ministry in the Americas.  It might mean we have more evidence of the Book of Mormon, but that evidence alone would not be enough to undeniably make Joseph Smith's claims valid.    

 

Exactly what would that evidence look like? IE; Would an engraving of three tortillas be one? We recognize the European/Middle Eastern context of three fishes/three loaves of bread. What would a similar context be for an ancient American setting be?

[Robert F. Smith]

Hello Bart, I think this world is about learning to live by faith.  John Paul II says as much in his encyclical "Fides et Ratio".  Regardless of how much historical "facts" are found, the concept of Jesus' sacrifice for us, the reality of ancient prophets and apostles, the truth of the gospel is all a matter of faith only.  

That is all well and good, Stormy, when you don't have thugs bashing on your door yelling that there is no historical evidence.  Faith is fine for those who have nothing available but faith.  However, we Mormons actually believe in both faith and reason (even by study and also by faith, out of the best books, etc.), and Joseph set an example for us of pursuing both.  So, yeh, Fides et Ratio, by all means.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[cinepro]

Brant Gardner does a pretty good job explaining the arguments against Quetzalcoatl being Jesus here:

 

http://rationalfaiths.com/quetzalcoatl-white-god-and-the-book-of-mormon-part-i/

 

President Taylor’s statement recognizes that the Quetzalcoatl legends do not really match what we see in the Book of Mormon, but ascribes those differences to the impure source and time. President Taylor is absolutely correct that over time stories can develop, evolve, and shift away from their original sources. That is actually a perfect description of what has happened to the stories about Quetzalcoatl. However, rather than drift away from the Book of Mormon story of Christ’s appearance into a paganized retelling, they stories have drifted from a pagan story into a Christianized one. The LDS correlation between Quetzalcoatl is more than just a similar attempt to find the bearded Caucasian that we first saw among the Spanish priests, it is based upon the stories that the Spanish priests used to declare that bearded Caucasian as St. Thomas. Unfortunately, while those stories were based on the native deity Quetzalcoatl, they had already been warped into new forms as the Spanish fathers recorded them.

 

I highly recommend it to anyone who thinks there might be a connection.

[Robert F. Smith]

Brant Gardner does a pretty good job explaining the arguments against Quetzalcoatl being Jesus here:

 

http://rationalfaiths.com/quetzalcoatl-white-god-and-the-book-of-mormon-part-i/

 

 

 

 

I highly recommend it to anyone who thinks there might be a connection.

Brant certainly does a good job, cinepro, although he left out all the most important considerations which I covered in post #4 above.  But for that his (and Diane Wirth's) case would be rock solid.

 

The feathered serpents are there in both Bible and Book of Mormon, and even act as a type of Christ.  No case?  Pshaw!!

Edited September 5, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Tiki]

Longfellow' poen is based on American Indian stories and Legends

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/hiawatha.html#notes

Please note below the symbolism of baptism, the atonement and Manito the Great Spirit descending and later ascending through the clouds. Note also the detail of his smiling upon his children and this is also noted in the Book of Mormon.

From

The Song of Hiawatha

Part 1 The Peace Pipe

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/song-01.html

"Bathe now in the stream before you,

Wash the war-paint from your faces,

Wash the blood-stains from your fingers,

Bury your war-clubs and your weapons,

Break the red stone from this quarry,

Mould and make it into Peace-Pipes,

Take the reeds that grow beside you,

Deck them with your brightest feathers,

Smoke the calumet together,

And as brothers live henceforward!"

Then upon the ground the warriors

Threw their cloaks and shirts of deer-skin,

Threw their weapons and their war-gear,

Leaped into the rushing river,

Washed the war-paint from their faces.

Clear above them flowed the water,

Clear and limpid from the footprints

Of the Master of Life descending;

Dark below them flowed the water,

Soiled and stained with streaks of crimson,

As if blood were mingled with it!

From the river came the warriors,

Clean and washed from all their war-paint;

On the banks their clubs they buried,

Buried all their warlike weapons.

Gitche Manito, the mighty,

The Great Spirit, the creator,

Smiled upon his helpless children!

And in silence all the warriors

Broke the red stone of the quarry,

Smoothed and formed it into Peace-Pipes,

Broke the long reeds by the river,

Decked them with their brightest feathers,

And departed each one homeward,

While the Master of Life, ascending,

Through the opening of cloud-curtains,

Through the doorways of the heaven,

Vanished from before their faces,

In the smoke that rolled around him,

The Pukwana of the Peace-Pipe!

[Cold Steel]

Lloyd Graham, an atheist who set out to prove that the biblical scriptures were not only inconsistent, but unoriginal. He writes that Christianity is simply based, not on an actual person, but on a "mythoplasm" (whatever that is). Regarding the place of Jesus' crucifixion, he notes:

 

The other name, Calvary, is the Latin equivalent from calvaria, a skull, and calvus, bald. The Aramaic Gulgalta, source of the Hebrew Golgotha, means “like a skull.” As these countries are not remotely separated, it might be argued that these similarities all derive from an event, but this can hardly be the case with Mexico, some five thousand miles away. Yet the place where its great god Quetzalcoatl was crucified means “place of the skull.” These similarities come not from an event but from a common mythoplasm.

 

Deceptions and Myths of the Bible (Bell Publishing Co., N.Y., 1979), pp. 346-7.

 

 

I have no idea where he derived his information, but I submit it as a point of interest. Personally, I would be surprised if there was no connection between Quetzalcoatl and Jesus. When my wife and I visited Chichén Itzá several years ago (for the second time), just listening to the tour guides and the spontaneous lectures by others who were not LDS, if I had just been dropped into that environment just knowing what I know about the Book of Mormon, I would certainly see a connection. The early Catholic priests could see it as well, and later historians concluded the Mexican locals were just telling the priests what they wanted to hear. Some scholars today reject that and believe the legends passed on to the priests originated from actual oral and written legends. Because the priests burned so many of the written records, we simply have to take our best shots.

 

Irrespective of Quetzalcoatl, there are numerous other white god legends that should make people think twice. As a convert to the church, I recall that being a point that I found compelling; and the missionaries didn't need to point it out. I knew from history that there were a number of white god legends, but I didn't know how many until later. I know Brant Gardner doesn't put much stock in the Quetzalcoatl story, but I can't dispute him because he knows a lot more than I do. But I do have a "gut" feeling that the legends are just a little too similar to be coincidence..

Edited September 6, 2014 by Cold Steel

[Tiki]

The same legend is in South America. I was told by a resident of Venezuela that Guyana or Guiana meant "pale" though I haven't independently verified it. The story being when the Spanish landed in Eastern Venezuela they encountered natives and asked who they were. The natives of course not understanding spanish replied by saying the Spaniards looked pale.

Here on LDS.org:

"The Tamanacos Indian tribes in Venezuela have the same legend of a white, bearded god: “[Amalivacá] had a face the color of the light fluffy clouds of the morning, and white was his long head of hair. … He said: ‘I am Amalivacá, and I come in the name of my father INA-UIKI’” (Arturo Hellmund Tello, Leyendas Indígenas del Bajo Orinoco, trans. Ted E. Brewerton, Buenos Aires, Argentina: Imprenta Lopez Peru 666, 1948, pp. 19–22)."

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/1995/10/the-book-of-mormon-a-sacred-ancient-record?lang=eng

------

The experience was so powerful that the legend is among natives in North, Central and South America.

1 Nephi 12:20 states the seed of Nephi's brethren covered the face the land after the destruction of the Nephite nation. And this "legend" went with them.

-------

"Elder Mark E. Petersen, a member of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, wrote: “As the ancient Israelites suffered a dispersion which sprinkled them among all the nations, so the descendants of Laman and Lemuel [sons of Lehi] were sifted over the vast areas of the western hemisphere. They are found from pole to pole” (Children of Promise, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1981, p. 31; emphasis added).

Many migratory groups came to the Americas, but none was as important as the three mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The blood of these people flows in the veins of the Blackfoot and the Blood Indians of Alberta, Canada; in the Navajo and the Apache of the American Southwest; the Inca of western South America; the Aztec of Mexico; the Maya of Guatemala; and in other native American groups in the Western Hemisphere and the Pacific islands."

Ibid.

------

Edited September 7, 2014 by Tiki

[Brant Gardner]

Cold Steel: The quotation you provided about Quetzalcoatl's place of crucifixion is a complete fantasy. Quetzalcoatl was not crucified. In most myths, he rose to become the morning star. In some he just leaves. He is never crucified (nor was anyone else in Mesoamerica). I'm not sure what the "place of the skull" might refer to. It could refer to several different things, but none of them are connected with the Quetzalcoatl legends.

 

Robert Smith: While there are certainly possibilities in seeing a feathered serpent with connections to the Old World, the question isn't whether or not one might see them but whether or not they are there. There are so many things that appear similar, and so many that are made to be similar in the way the arguments are arranged. In the case of Quetzalcoatl, if you go through the evidence to reconstruct what the mythology was prior to the time the Spaniards got hold of it, it bears no resemblance to Christ whatsoever. Even the feathered serpent (which can be traced earlier) seems to have a connection to warfare. I agree that there are superficial similarities, but when you examine the details, there is no connection between the Mesoamerican feathered serpent and Christ.

 

Tiki: John Taylor thought that the evidence pointed to a connection between Christ and Quetzalcoatl, but that was because of the particular evidence he had seen. Others have picked up the connection and repeated. They are basing their information on data too limited by selection and distortion. In short, they are incorrect. I respect their authority, but in this case they are simply incorrect. I ascribe it to not being aware of the full scholarship on the topic and nothing at all about their spiritual talents.