The Ongoing Impact Of Ordain Women

[why me]

Ordain Women has opened a door ..a new door of perspectives and opportunities that some women have not even thought of.

It doesn't mean that they are going against the Prophet or God,it just means that they can fully understand better free agency and the usefulness of their talents and abilities which is uplifting and what is committed in Temple Ceremonies right?  Why in the world can't there just be openess instead of a "Us Versus Them" kind of attitude?  It could be that the greatest essence in thought are put to great use in deeds.  To deprive or even just feel deprived of giving better service should always be explored.  A loving Heavenly Father does not want his daughters to stagnate.  We should be able to grow on this earth with or without the priesthood on many different levels.  But those levels need to talked about..not disdained or shut up..I believe that we have forgotten what we want and or need may often be a good thing.  Just my IMO. 

 

Jeanne

I suppose that the apostle paul may just disagree with you since he told the church at his time to be of one voice. And he certainly had his hands full with the contentions and disagreements that were within the church. How would you feel about an organization of active members who were demonstrating on temple square in support of polygamy? And then having a website with a missionary program to convince members that polygamy is sanctioned by god. Or just some pressure to have the GAs pray about reinstating it. Would you be so supportive of this organization to have a voice in the church? And maybe we can have an organization to pressure the church in sanctioning other people's desires: same sex marriage, a paid vocational priesthood instead of a lay priesthood. etc.

 

I do believe that if the church is a revelatory church, heavenly father can send a revelation about ordaining girls and women to the priesthood. But so far he seems to favor a no on the issue. Women who wish the priesthood need to pray to Him about it and attempt to change his mind. The catholics can enlist the saints when they have requests etc ( they can also pray to god too) but the lds can say prayers to heavenly father. I think that this is the way to go.

Edited August 22, 2014 by why me

[why me]

 

This morning I listened to an excellent Sunstone Symposium podcast, SLC 2013 Symposium/ Session 255: Evolution of Early Mormon Priesthood Narratives

John Hatch, Dan Vogel, Greg Prince, D. Michael Quinn and Ryan Bingham present their panel on August 2, 2013.

 

As mentioned, Greg Prince was one of the presenters.  He has written a book about it, Power from on High: The Development of Mormon Priesthood.  He said it hasn't seen the light of day at Deseret Bookstores, apparently he worked on it for 8 years.  He came to find that the PH is more an authorization much as someone who grants someone Citizenship, or other such things.  And it has evolved through the years to be whatever the current church leadership says it is.  There was more he said but this stuck out to me.  Maybe women have something they need different from this or maybe they don't understand what they are asking for from the current leadership. 

 

Why should they have his book in the deseret bookstore? I think that the problem is that many people have interpetations and ideas about this and that. And I suppose that we must come to our own conclusions about it. For the active lds, it has nothing to do with the leadership of the lds church but with god, since it is god who can give a revelation on it. It is really that simple. It seems that heavenly father does not think that women should have the priesthood at this time. But this seems to be a tough shell to crack for many people: to understand that the answer is no.

[Tacenda]

Tomorrow BBC World Service will air a radio documentary about Ordain Women and the struggle for women's ordination in the Church featuring Kate Kelly, Margaret Toscano, Sheri Dew, Michael Otterson and others.

 

Sister Saints - Women and the Mormons

Duration: 28 minutes First broadcast: Saturday 23 August 2014

Why are women in the Mormon church not only barred from becoming priests, but are also kicked out of the church for campaigning to change those rules?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, was founded in America in the 19th Century. It started with just six members – but now claims 15 million worldwide. Women in the church have traditionally taken a supporting role, though some argue that in the earliest days of Mormonism, women played more prominent roles than they do now and that Mormon theology gives more equal status to the sexes than current church practise reflects.

Jane Little travels to Utah, where the Church has its headquarters, to meet Kate Kelly. She was an active mormon, even a former missionary, but then she founded a campaign to ordain women. Kelly was found guilty of apostasy by her bishop and excommunicated. The all-male leadership now regards her as an ex-Mormon, though she clearly does not, and is appealing the decision.

Kate Kelly is not the first women to be excommunicated, and Jane also meets another dissenter who questioned the relationship between women and their Church. But she also finds female members who say they are perfectly happy, that they have important positions in their church, yet ones that are distinct from the men. They say the majority of Mormon women do not want the priesthood - which the church leadership confirms is not on the agenda.  Show less

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p024wttp

 

Yeah, I'd say OW has had some impact.  Just a little. 

[why me]

 

Yeah, I'd say OW has had some impact.  Just a little. 

Not really. Of course more secular TV programs and the secular media would be interested in this topic since the lds church is a moral conservative church and would come under scrutiny from more liberal moral relativist outlets. But within the lds church, its impact is small and the more that Kate associates with exmembers and the secular media to make her points the less of an impact the organization will have in the church.

 

The point is really simple: if she wants heavenly father to give girls the priesthood, lds women should pray to him about it. Unfortunately, kate may not believe in prayer to do it. Much better for her to go to the media and give interviews to the secular media with exmembers etc.

[Buzzard]

I don't follow her account, I don't even post to Twitter, but saw a tweet of Ms. Kelly at church in Nairobi coloring with the children.  Now that she is absent, OW might slowly fade away, or the apostates in it's inner circle might radicalize it even more.  I hope that Ms. Kelly might use this time out of the spotlight to reflect on what she has personally lost and come to herself.  Being around children is a good way to get perspective, as long as the picture is not part of an attempt at public rehabilitation while she continues her campaign against the doctrine of the church. 

As an aside, I know the MP in Nairobi, if she sought rebaptism, that would be an interesting interview.  A kinder, more soft-spoken man you will never find, but when he was my SP in SoCal, he had a framed saying on the credenza right behind his desk which he referred to often.  "Obedience is powerful spiritual medicine.  It comes close to being a cure-all"-Boyd K. Packer.

[Stone holm]

Not really. Of course more secular TV programs and the secular media would be interested in this topic since the lds church is a moral conservative church and would come under scrutiny from more liberal moral relativist outlets. But within the lds church, its impact is small and the more that Kate associates with exmembers and the secular media to make her points the less of an impact the organization will have in the church.

 

The point is really simple: if she wants heavenly father to give girls the priesthood, lds women should pray to him about it. Unfortunately, kate may not believe in prayer to do it. Much better for her to go to the media and give interviews to the secular media with exmembers etc.

Moral conservative....maybe now, not sure it wasn't a moral liberal Church at one time

[Stone holm]

Not really. Of course more secular TV programs and the secular media would be interested in this topic since the lds church is a moral conservative church and would come under scrutiny from more liberal moral relativist outlets. But within the lds church, its impact is small and the more that Kate associates with exmembers and the secular media to make her points the less of an impact the organization will have in the church.

 

The point is really simple: if she wants heavenly father to give girls the priesthood, lds women should pray to him about it. Unfortunately, kate may not believe in prayer to do it. Much better for her to go to the media and give interviews to the secular media with exmembers etc.

Just love the use of the word secular here like it was the epitome of evil. I suspect there are a few inhabitants of the Middle East right now hoping for a little secular relief.

[EllenMaksoud]

Images of the survey from the Church regarding the activity around Ordain Women.

 

http://mormonstories.org/how-the-lds-church-does-marketing-research-around-progressive-issues/

 

It seems that the OW group is having some amount of impact and/or someone is paying attention.

I live in a Ward in weird Portland. Out of around 75 people attending every Sunday, I would say that there are around 12 openly critical of women's role in the church. I do not know how many women are critical but are not vocal about it. Frankly, I am a Genesis 3:16 woman and if the man is Godly and good, I'm good. If he acts like a power hungry jerk, I am his worst nightmare.

 

I am not familiar with the historical details of the church, but apparently when Joseph Smith was alive, women did many things, with his blessings,  that are now restricted to men.  This is not without presidence in other religions, and cultures where women periodically gain and lose power.

 

The woman I was speaking with last night is deeply critical of church leadership, and feels that no man can take away or give women that which  God already gave us, and I am in her camp, but peaceably so.

 

The church likes to cultivate the image of a monolithic church, but I think it is deeply divided and this matter of the priesthood will be settled in the next 5 to 10 years, as will this ridiculous business with SSM.

[Buzzard]

If anyone is interested, I tracked down that picture. I don't know what it all means, but her "Twitter string" (My term) seems shorter than it did in her OW days.

https://twitter.com/Kate_Kelly_Esq/status/501125207608659969/photo/1

[why me]

Just love the use of the word secular here like it was the epitome of evil. I suspect there are a few inhabitants of the Middle East right now hoping for a little secular relief.

Here is a difinition of secular:

 

sec·u·lar

adjective \ˈse-kyə-lər\

 

: not spiritual : of or relating to the physical world and not the spiritual world

 

: not religious

 

I think that I used it correctly. The catholic church also had the same problem with the media during the time of John Paul II and Benedict. The papers were full of articles about the catholic church's moral stances being critical of them. It is now the mormon church's turn. The OW people know this very well about the media. If a position is religiously moral 'conservative', a movement to challenge it would get some publicity. However, mormons know full well that it takes a revelation to change this policy and since that is the case, one must pray for the change and not go to the media with a complaint about policy.

 

Many churches have bowed to secular pressure and the winds of change. And maybe the lds church will too. And maybe the catholic church too. Or the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches also. Interestingly, all four churches claim that they have the truth from biblical times and all four are rather conservative in doctrine.

Edited August 23, 2014 by why me

[readstoomuch]

I liked the picture of Kate Kelly. It showed her serving in the way she was needed. Something we all do or should do. The conversation about women in the Church is far from over. Sheila Eubanks at Fair Conference and neyland McBanes book Women at Church are setting a tone that can bring about change. OW agenda seems to divide and it may have slowed down progress that was going on behind the scenes.

[why me]

I liked the picture of Kate Kelly. It showed her serving in the way she was needed. Something we all do or should do. The conversation about women in the Church is far from over. Sheila Eubanks at Fair Conference and neyland McBanes book Women at Church are setting a tone that can bring about change. OW agenda seems to divide and it may have slowed down progress that was going on behind the scenes.

We are dealing with two levels when it comes to change in the church. First, those changes which are humanly possible. Second, those changes which are heavenly possible. The former can be done through decision making, The second can be done through revelation. If the second is seen as being done through human decisions, the church will be finished in its claims of being a revelatory church where decisions are made at the request of heavenly father. And the critics and vocal exmembers will be clapping their hands in victory.

 

Thus, OW impact will be small. However, other sisters who are seeking change that is humanly possible could succeed.

[Stone holm]

Here is a difinition of secular:

 

sec·u·lar

adjective \ˈse-kyə-lər\

 

: not spiritual : of or relating to the physical world and not the spiritual world

 

: not religious

 

I think that I used it correctly. The catholic church also had the same problem with the media during the time of John Paul II and Benedict. The papers were full of articles about the catholic church's moral stances being critical of them. It is now the mormon church's turn. The OW people know this very well about the media. If a position is religiously moral 'conservative', a movement to challenge it would get some publicity. However, mormons know full well that it takes a revelation to change this policy and since that is the case, one must pray for the change and not go to the media with a complaint about policy.

 

Many churches have bowed to secular pressure and the winds of change. And maybe the lds church will too. And maybe the catholic church too. Or the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches also. Interestingly, all four churches claim that they have the truth from biblical times and all four are rather conservative in doctrine.

Of course they are conservative and would make that claim, because conservativism would always claim that is the way it has always been done and that the authority of leadership should be obeyed. And if history does not quite fit their claims, well then rewrite it. So you wind up stoning the adulteress and patting the good ole boys at the money changing tables on the back.

[Jeanne]

I suppose that the apostle paul may just disagree with you since he told the church at his time to be of one voice. And he certainly had his hands full with the contentions and disagreements that were within the church. How would you feel about an organization of active members who were demonstrating on temple square in support of polygamy? And then having a website with a missionary program to convince members that polygamy is sanctioned by god. Or just some pressure to have the GAs pray about reinstating it. Would you be so supportive of this organization to have a voice in the church? And maybe we can have an organization to pressure the church in sanctioning other people's desires: same sex marriage, a paid vocational priesthood instead of a lay priesthood. etc.

 

I do believe that if the church is a revelatory church, heavenly father can send a revelation about ordaining girls and women to the priesthood. But so far he seems to favor a no on the issue. Women who wish the priesthood need to pray to Him about it and attempt to change his mind. The catholics can enlist the saints when they have requests etc ( they can also pray to god too) but the lds can say prayers to heavenly father. I think that this is the way to go.

I understand what you are saying, of course.  But I just don't feel like Ordain Women was actually "listened to" without preconceptions of who they are.  They really do want to be more a part of the Church...not just the Priesthood.  Sorry if that doesn't make sense.  But because I have a hearing problem???  I have often had to say to others that if I don't always hear you, know that I listen.

[Calm]

  But I just don't feel like Ordain Women was actually "listened to" without preconceptions of who they are.  

More than likely.  But it would appear that they had preconceptions too, ones that eventually led to excommunication of Sister Kelly, imo.  When they presented their request that the leaders pray for a revelation about ordaining women, they were clear that they would not accept a revelation that said "women are not to have the priesthood".  I believe the phrase was "nothing less than".  There were two preconceptions embedded in their request to leadership---one preconception was that the leadership hadn't prayed about it or received a revelation because of their second preconception that any revelation from God about ordaining women would be to actually ordain women.  And they operated on that mode without allowing for slower or step by step changes, it was all or nothing.

 

For example, their first attempt to get into the meeting they structured it so that a refusal was the only option by leadership imo because the OW leaders stated that if they were let into the Priesthood Session it would be an acknowledgement that they were prospective elders, implying that the revelation to ordain them would be next to appear…or at least was a given eventually.

 

And any talk of doctrine that didn't include women being ordained meant to them that there had been no revelation sought as if revelation was sincerely sought, the answer would have been "yes, ordain them".

 

Everyone has preconceptions, the question is if those preconceptions prevent change or will allow it enough that eventually those preconceptions will be altered as well if wrong.  I personally think the Church's preconceptions of the OW as their sisters and desiring that they have peace and joy in their interactions in the Church as many do was more open than OW's and the evidence being the changes that have been made over time both before and after OW to how the Church in general relates to women, how they have worked on making women more visible, how there is a recognition of issues that women are dealing with (evidence being Sis. Eubank's talk being posted on mormonnewsroom).  Unfortunately I am not aware of any change save to dig in deeper (such as KK's comment to stay in the Church but raise hell) to their original position among OW (except perhaps to change the name of their discussions to conversations), though I would be very interested to see some.

[Stargazer]

The primary impact appears to be threads on this board.

 

It's the only place I hear anything about OW.  If we stopped yammering on about it, it might go away.