The Ongoing Impact Of Ordain Women

[Darren10]

Because it is much easier to simply to give an ad hom attack, than it is to explore the veracity of a claim.

Is a Spokesperson for the Church a good enough source, although it is a salt lake tribune article from Peggy Fletcher Stack?

The survey went to "1,000 randomly selected men and women who are active members of the church from the United States," LDS Church spokesman Dale Jones said Wednesday in a statement. "Participation is voluntary and individual responses are anonymous and confidential."

This would not be the first time Mormon Stories sent out a survey only to be questionable.

[Darren10]

A few weeks ago, end of June, maybe, our bishop was instructed by the SP to talk about the issues raised in our joint RS/Priesthood. There was a great deal of negativity and resentment expressed from the members. One thing I piped up and tried to point out, much to the chagrin of the audience, was the positives that is coming out of this. I think the positives will continue unravel.Women will someday, perhaps, play a more significant role in church matters. Hope so.

Impossible. They already play an indispensable role in the Church.

[Darren10]

I think this is a false dichotomy, Erin. One that basically shuts down important dialogue for maintaining the status quo. I don't agree with OW, but I don't agree that marking the need for change in terms of concerns of gender and women with more equitable roles is vying for position and prestige. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

Blue Bell;

Isn't one of Ordain Women's downfalls that they insist women *must* be ordained into the priesthood in order to be equal? That the Church leaders would agree with this position from OW if they (they Church leaders were truly in touch with God's (Jesus Christ's) will? If so isn't Erin fundamentally correct?

[Darren10]

Eray doesn't trust sources that challenge or disagree with his worldview.

There must be something about Eray I don't know about. I guess sethpayne's a more perfect judge regarding Eray than I.

[Darren10]

No.  But you dismissed the information presented based on John Dehlin's character.  That is the classic definition of an ad hominem.  But of course, the use of ad hominem is a valid form of argumentation as there are times when the nature/character of the person making an argument IS relevant to the argument itself.

 

This instance, however, is not one of those times.

Really?

http://plonialmonimormon.blogspot.com/2014/08/john-dehlin-continunes-to-allege-that.html?spref=fb

And read, "Mormon Stories’s Survey—the “scientific” construction of a modern exit narrative?" http://en.fairmormon.org/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Books/Understanding_Mormon_Disbelief

[Darren10]

Or he might have dismissed it based on his past experiences of accuracy fo information coming from this particular source.

Is saying I don't trust the credibility of this source for this issue because my experience is that it has misrepresented many other issues ad hom?

To the ire of sethpayne and calmoriah's delight, I completely agree.

[Darren10]

Do you really think the Church had this survey prepared before OW began making noise?

I think the Church and its leaders have a far more in depth knowledge of the status of women in the Church than do John Dehlin and Ordain Women combined.

[Darren10]

So if JD said water is H20, I guess we can't trust it.

 

As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

More pertinent is that when John Dehlin said he is no longer a believer, I totally believed him.

[sethpayne]

More pertinent is that when John Dehlin said he is no longer a believer, I totally believed him.

 

I like you, Darren.  But you confuse me at times.

 

Would you believe Dehlin if he said water is H20?  Is there no distinction between the presentation of rumor alone as opposed to rumor with evidence?  And, as it turns out, Dehlin was right this time.  But since we first heard of the rumor from JD, is it untrue?  Or does the Trib story override the original tainted Dehlin rumor?

[sethpayne]

I think the Church and its leaders have a far more in depth knowledge of the status of women in the Church than do John Dehlin and Ordain Women combined.

 

I agree with you more than you probably think but that isn't what I asked.

 

Did the Church prepare this survey before or after OW started making noise?

[smac97]

Images of the survey from the Church regarding the activity around Ordain Women.

 

http://mormonstories.org/how-the-lds-church-does-marketing-research-around-progressive-issues/

 

It seems that the OW group is having some amount of impact and/or someone is paying attention.

My ward (in Provo) is, by a significant majority, unaware that OW exists.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Storm Rider]

delete

Edited August 15, 2014 by Storm Rider

[VideoGameJunkie]

Does OW die out now or does it grow stronger than ever?

[Scott Lloyd]

My ward (in Provo) is, by a significant majority, unaware that OW exists.

Thanks,

-Smac

If the ongoing impact of Ordained Women is to cause the Church to take a survey that proves that the impact of OW on the membership is negligible, I say, "Bravo!"

Edited August 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Darren10]

Does OW die out now or does it grow stronger than ever?

Ummm, yes?

[Scott Lloyd]

Ummm, yes?

You neglected a third possibility: that OW remains flat and stagnant.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Darren10]

If the ongoing impact of Ordained Women is to cause the Church to take a survey that proves that the impact of OW on the membership is minimal, I say, "Bravo!"

Well, I've never been able to get the Church to take a survey.

[Darren10]

You neglected a third option: that OW remains flat and stagnant.

Or more surveys.

[Darren10]

I like you, Darren.  But you confuse me at times.

 

Would you believe Dehlin if he said water is H20?  Is there no distinction between the presentation of rumor alone as opposed to rumor with evidence?  And, as it turns out, Dehlin was right this time.  But since we first heard of the rumor from JD, is it untrue?  Or does the Trib story override the original tainted Dehlin rumor?

Sure I'd believe John Dehlin if he were to say H2O is water (or even ice or water vapor) but that's not pertinent to this thread, is it? I don't think Eray had in mind Dehlin repeating a long-standing scientific conclusion when he said that he would not believe anything from Dehlin. Nor do I think it takes a genius or anyone with a supremely highly level of intelligence to understand that. However, when it cones to the standing of the Church on a number of given issues, I think Eray, as well as myself, hold a high level of skepticism when John Dehlin speaks. So when John Dehlin, and only John Dehlin, is linked to comment regarding the LDS Church, Eray will probably not believe it. I think connecting his comment to external sources in order to corroborate it is good research and I don't think Eray would oppose doing such a thing.

[Darren10]

I agree with you more than you probably think but that isn't what I asked.

 

Did the Church prepare this survey before or after OW started making noise?

This came from posts 22 & 23. In the first, CV75 responded to rockpond who asked if anyone is paying attention (to the cause Ordain Women took up). That's what I meant when I said that the LDS Church has a deeper understanding on women in the Church than OW and John Dehlin combined. Thus the LDS Church has been paying attention to the issue of women and the priesthood far longer and much more profoundly than OW and Dehlin combined.

[Storm Rider]

Many years ago the temple endowment was changed. OW was not around then nor was any group talking to the media yammering on about their rights as a gender and/or that they deserved a significantly greater role out front for all to see and yet the endowment changed.  The issues of the membership have been a topic of deep discussion among the leadership long before any of us were born.   The Church's purpose is to assist each member to become a better disciple of Christ.  Its purpose is not to curry to the unquenchable thirst for power that some individuals possess.

 

It has always been my wish that everyone that hungers after leadership positions should have them.  Everyone should get out of their way and each of them be invited to have at it.  Leaders that do the best job never seek the job.  They serve naturally with or without a calling.  They are capable of seeing needs because they seek to know others and they simply observe who is there and in need.  

 

As I write this or when I think of people like Ms. KK I have a visceral reaction. I taste bile in my mouth, my face is in a grimace, and my stomach churns. Everything about her and people like her are what I dislike most.  There are no redeeming qualities; nothing that inspires me or that is beautiful, or virtuous.   I have a strong distaste for OW and Ms. KK because their/her methods are vile to me; they reek of self-aggrandizement, selfishness, and ego.  They are qualities I find repugnant in any individual regardless of gender.

 

I continue to expect to see incremental changes within the parameters of the Church's teachings that have to do with process rather than doctrine. Policies are meant to be flexible and will change as leadership feels led to change them.  

 

If Ms. KK or those that support her ilk want to take credit for changes that have been coming for decades then go for it.  Take credit and for those that are ignorant enough to give it to them, great.  What is unavoidable is that God knows and we will each be judged for our actions and choices.  He knows our heart and our heart will condemn us because it cannot cover or hide its desires and intentions.  

[rockpond]

Thank you. I was confused earlier by the way you stated things in connection with OW. It would seem you are using them as a catch all for those pushing for changes. Am I correct?

(for some reason I missed some posts and thought earlier posts of yours and seth's were actually later ones and I responded to them as if they were, essentially repeating myself after you had actually agreed with me, my apologies if it looks like I was harassing you.)

 

I know you'd never harass me, Cal.  And I was just using it as a catch all to try to make a point.  I should have been clear.  I very much respect your position and thoughts on this issue (as well as many others).

[rockpond]

Without OW doing what OW did/does, I’m sure the issue(s) it champions would inevitably have come to a head as most social pressure does, and there would have been Church action to promote the involvement of women, including follow-up surveys.

 

I think that OW was a significant (but not the only) social pressure that caused the issue to come to a head.

 

And, I'll state again so nobody thinks I am an OW supporter -- I do not agree with all the methods they used.

[rockpond]

My ward (in Provo) is, by a significant majority, unaware that OW exists.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

You have survey data to back this statement up?

[rockpond]

Does OW die out now or does it grow stronger than ever?

 

I think it will die out.  They went too far to maintain enough support within the active LDS community.  (Just my opinion.)