For Dan And Other Middle East Experts

[thesometimesaint]

To the OP...as former military, war is horrible, it is supposed to be horrible so that one day the war will end. My heart breaks for everyone on both sides. As far as Israel goes, if someone (for any reason) were to attack my family, my response would be swift and painful. As far as the Middle East it is so much larger than Israel, one only needs to see what is going on all over to see how bad it is getting. Much of what is happening is due to our own involvement, or lack thereof.

 

Yes war is supposed to be horrible, but not all acts in war are honorable, or even legal.

[The Nehor]

Who, precisely? I myself don't know any personally, but I do listen daily to the Michael Medved show. Medved, being a Jew, and having relatives who live in Israel, and he himself visits there at least annually, reports something somewhat different from what you said. Your words suggest that the Jews and Muslims in Israel are in roughly the same relationship as black vs whites were in the 1950's, and that there is constant conflict between Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. Perhaps you would not accept the report of someone who lives there, but Medved and his brother both indicate that while there are tensions, the two groups get along largely OK. And aside from outside terrorists, the streets are entirely safe.

 

Wow, so upper-crust Jews get along just fine in Israel? Who'd have thought it?

 

And no, I do not feel the need to give you names and email addresses of those who have shared information with me.

 

 

Good job taking a metaphor and turning it into an absurdity. The response you're looking for in this case is to arm yourself, beat down his door, and while holding your neighbor at gunpoint search his house, confiscating all firearms.

 

For he who lives by the gun shall live in peace.

 

 

I suppose you're looking at the case of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, who passively consented to their brother Lamanites murdering them. And this did, of course, result in their enemies losing their blood-lust. Nice try, but it is the declared objective of Hamas to destroy Israel, and to kill as many Jews as possible.

And I will remind you that except for the Warsaw uprising in 1944, the Jews of Europe went passively into the concentration camps. Their captors did not stop killing them until they had run out of Jews to kill. Oh, but perhaps the Jews hadn't repented enough. That must have been it.

 

No, that is not the case I was looking at. Your refutation is sadly inane though. Are you arguing that the Lamanites who were massacring the Anti-Nephi-Lehis did not have as their declared objection the destruction of those they were killing? This is always the defense of the military hawk when called on extermism: "You do not realize how EVIL they are! We have no choice!"

 

I am going to ignore your World War II bit as you are beating that poor straw man. I do not advocate the extreme pacifism of Gandhi who encouraged the Jews to passively accept their fate. I do think it odd that you seem to equate my suggestion that people repent to pacifism (which you seem to abhor). Do you see the penitent in the same light as you do pacifists?

 

 

Do you know any of them? Do you know anything about the attempts of the IDF to minimize casualties? And that even while the fighting continues Israel continues to deliver humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza?

Myths and Facts about the Gaza War

 

You seem to be full of knowledge that I don't believe you actually know. They see no alternative? Hamas won the election largely because of voter intimidation. It is unlikely to have been "free and open".

 

Well, the "full of knowledge" bit is completely mutual.

 

Do I know anyone who has been involved in the conflict? Yes, I do.

 

 

And yet that seems to be what you're doing

 

Do you only operate in binary where every conflict has a good guy and a bad guy? Saying both sides are to blame is not "blaming Israel". It is "blaming everyone involved".

 

 

You think that in every conflict between humans it's always both their faults? Blame both Japan and the US for Pearl Harbor? If only the US had just shut up about the Japanese raping, murdering and pillaging China, everything would have been fine? Blame both Al Qaida and the US for 9/11? If only we had converted to Islam en masse then it would not have happened... or if we had not been supporting Israel... or if we had not supported Saudi Arabia when Saddam invaded Kuwait... or what else? Then we would have avoided airplanes crashing into the twin towers?

 

So, how exactly was it Poland's fault that the Nazis invaded them in 1939?

 

Almost every conflict, yes. There is plenty of blame to go around for the Pacific conflict in World War II. The British for colonizing and exploiting the whole region, the Japanese for trying neo-colonialism, the United States for their apathy and colonialism, and many more. The Japanese had been raping, pillaging, and murdering in China for three years (if you don't count their exploitation of previously acquired puppet states). The United States was more worried about the destabilization in the region and not the loss of life. The United States cut Japanese oil to protect their own interests (trade and the Philippines). I would place more of the blame on Japan if that makes you feel better.

 

I actually do give some of the blame to the US for 9/11. If we had treated the Promised Land as we should have I doubt it would have happened. When it did we showed that we are a very timid and hyperaggressive people. We leveled two countries with little ability to fight back over an isolated though dramatic incident. We threw some of our liberties at politicians begging them to take them away and protect us and even now there is little movement to reclaim them. In the scriptures we are told that if we are hurt or offended and throw revilings and revenge at our persecutors that God considers the initial offense just and deserved. By that metric as a people we deserved 9/11. Not a pleasant thought is it?

 

And as for Poland.....they were very anti-Semitic. There is some twisted poetic justice to also falling harshly with those Jews together under the Nazi boot. Particularly since the Jewish minority were instrumental in creating Poland in the first place and then were quickly turned on.

 

Okay, I probably come across as harsh here. Just because I ascribe part of the blame to people involved does not mean we should not show compassion and empathy. Truth is.....most of us are in the same boat. LDS go to holy places to try to remove the blood and sins that accumulate from participating in our corrupt and fallen world. My view is more depressing. Few heroes and tons of villains, few innocents but lots of the guilty. We can hope to do some good in the world and minimize the damage we do while seeking a better world.

 

This worldview does have the advantage of being more in line with scripture. When Moroni rallied the troops it was not with soaring words about the rightness of their cause but with admonitions not to sin and condemnation of the people for getting themselves into this mess. When Alma dueled Amlici it was with the cry of repentance on his lips for himself and for his people. Hardly the bombastic good guy/bad guy dichotomy people people who support Israel peddle. To be fair those who see the Israelis as rabid apartheidists and the Palestinians as helpless victims are equally wrong. At least there is symmetry.

 

You're not following history very well. Israel is not now and has not been the aggressor is the Middle East conflict. Israel, even when acting pre-emptively, has invariably been reacting to actual violence initiated or about to be initiated by actors with lethal intent. Every single Arab government and terrorist organization in the Middle East knows exactly how to prevent Israel from attacking them, and that method is to not attack or threaten to attack Israel. Even in the case of Israel's destruction of Saddam's Osirak reactor in 1981 was preventative, as they believed that it was intended to produce nuclear weapons.

It is not the sending of missiles to Israel that will help fulfill prophecy. I see two possible scenarios. The first is the breakdown of Israel's defensive alliance with the United States -- which is clearly being undermined by the left in this country (at the risk of being seen to be going too political for the forum, let's leave that undiscussed). The second is a possible alliance between Arab states to fulfill their desire to see the Jewish incursion in Palestine eliminated. Or, for that matter, both!

As the extreme Islamists begin to become more important, and the dream for a reestablishing of the Caliphate becomes stronger, religious fervor may eventually overcome fear of Israel's nuclear arsenal. Once that happens, we may see the beginning of the tribulation.

Israel does not threaten its neighbors, it merely asks to be left alone. Israel would prefer trade with its neighbors to warfare, but its neighbors appear to prefer the warfare. What can Israel do against that, except prepare to fight?

I've been following this conflict in great detail since I was a teenager, even before I became a member of the LDS church. The plain fact of the matter is this: Israel is in the right; its foes are in the wrong. If you cannot see this, then I don't know how to explain it to you.

 

Here is that wonderful binary worldview again. The plain fact of the matter is that both sides are in the wrong. If you cannot see this, then I don't know how to explain it to you.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes war is supposed to be horrible, but not all acts in war are honorable, or even legal.

Did not suggest that...both you and I served and we were taught to win, and make it hurt. But too many get to focused on one conflict. The Middle East is lost, and Israel knows they must act alone. Our calling is to pray for peace...it is easy troubleshoot from afar. But Hamas and Isis must be stopped or no one is safe.

[volgadon]

Now for the rest of the story.

SEE http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

 

Those maps, particularly the loss of land ones, hide more than they reveal.

[volgadon]

Israel is hell on the ground where the two people mix and the Palestinians get the worst of it.

 

 

Since it is fairly apparent that the Nehor hasn't been,  I'll state that Israel is not "hell on the ground where the two people mix," and that "the Palestinians [do not always] get the worst of it." The regional councill for my village also includes several Arab ones. My mother teaches at a community college where most of the students are Palestinian, but the classes are mixed. I've worked for Arab bosses, and they certainly got the better of me in that exchange. =) However, the Jewish sector does not usually engage in the riots known as "days of rage." And as for Palestinians getting the worst of it, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3478336,00.html http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/researchers-race-to-document-vanishing-jewish-heritage-of-galilee-druze-village-1.453433

[volgadon]

Now for the rest of the story.

SEE http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

 

Now that I've looked closer at that site, it amounts to little more than ridiculous assertions, fabricated quotes, and an appalling historical ignorance, to put it nicely. Biggest bunch of dreck I've seen all week, including Viliami Pauni's anti-Israel diatribe.

[Calm]

Now that I've looked closer at that site, it amounts to little more than ridiculous assertions, fabricated quotes, and an appalling historical ignorance, to put it nicely. Biggest bunch of dreck I've seen all week, including Viliami Pauni's anti-Israel diatribe.

Sites with those types of names don't tend to all that credible...if one has to assure others so strongly in the name, often the content is why.

[BlueDreams]

I know next to nothing about the israeli conflict. But I'm naturally skeptical about the video given. It's too one-sided. But I also feel that most of the information that I'm going to get as an American will usually be one-sided, so it's hard to gage anything. 

 

Beyond that I have little to no opinion about this. The only one I have is that neither side is acting in such a way that will ever truly foster peaceful living between the 2. 

 

With luv.

BD

[thesometimesaint]

Did not suggest that...both you and I served and we were taught to win, and make it hurt. But too many get to focused on one conflict. The Middle East is lost, and Israel knows they must act alone. Our calling is to pray for peace...it is easy troubleshoot from afar. But Hamas and Isis must be stopped or no one is safe.

 

I'm no pacifist. If someone hits me, I hit back harder. But I don't take the first swing. I'm a big boy and can keep me than one thing in my mind at one time.

 

The Middle East was never ours to loose. It wasn't until all our oil got underneath all their sand that we gave a rats behind about the Middle East.

 

Israel doesn't act along. The US gives Israel many billions of dollars in cash, and many more billions of dollars in military hardware every year. That's not even counting the private giving of lord knows how many billions more dollars given it.

 

Praying for peace is good. But actually working towards it is even better.

 

I live in a small "bedroom" city by California standards. but I'm not parochial.

 

Hamas and ISIS are a bunch of thugs. It is the noncombatants caught in-between that is my concern. 

[ERayR]

 Our calling is to pray for peace...it is easy troubleshoot from afar. But Hamas and Isis must be stopped or no one is safe.

 

I would not say so much pray for peace as pray that the Lord hasten his coming.

[ERayR]

I'm no pacifist. If someone hits me, I hit back harder. But I don't take the first swing. I'm a big boy and can keep me than one thing in my mind at one time.

 

The Middle East was never ours to loose. It wasn't until all our oil got underneath all their sand that we gave a rats behind about the Middle East.

 

Israel doesn't act along. The US gives Israel many billions of dollars in cash, and many more billions of dollars in military hardware every year. That's not even counting the private giving of lord knows how many billions more dollars given it.

 

Praying for peace is good. But actually working towards it is even better.

 

I live in a small "bedroom" city by California standards. but I'm not parochial.

 

Hamas and ISIS are a bunch of thugs. It is the noncombatants caught in-between that is my concern. 

 

That is all good but should Israel lie down and die so that nobody is caught in the middle.  What would go a long way in stopping this is for Jordon to give citizenship to the Palestinians who really Jordanians.

[The Nehor]

Since it is fairly apparent that the Nehor hasn't been,

Shall I post passport photos to show the duration and list all the areas I was in while there along with a listing of everyone I have talked to involved in the conflict along with copies of their identification? Would that somehow magically make anything I say credible?

[Stargazer]

Last I looked Turkey was in the Middle East.

 

There are about 26,000 Jews in Turkey, and I suppose being a more secular country, I guess they have the right to vote, but as far as I am aware anti-semitism is on the rise, as more religious parties are beginning to demand a more religious state.  The Turkish Army is historically a force that prevents desecularization, but if radical elements gain power, it may not be enough.

 

How many Jews are there in Turkey's armed forces, legislature, supreme court, or serving at any level in government?  Few, if any.  Demographics militate against this, of course, but at least there is no official state-sponsored persecution.

 

OK, so maybe Turkey isn't so bad.  But it's still better for all religions and all races in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East (or Asia Minor).

[The Nehor]

Whether I'm killed by a Jew, Muslim, Christian, or Atheist bullet I'm just as dead.

 

Yes, but who kills you may matter if you want to make it into an amusing anecdote on the other side.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm no pacifist. If someone hits me, I hit back harder. But I don't take the first swing. I'm a big boy and can keep me than one thing in my mind at one time.

 

The Middle East was never ours to loose. It wasn't until all our oil got underneath all their sand that we gave a rats behind about the Middle East.

 

Israel doesn't act along. The US gives Israel many billions of dollars in cash, and many more billions of dollars in military hardware every year. That's not even counting the private giving of lord knows how many billions more dollars given it.

 

Praying for peace is good. But actually working towards it is even better.

 

I live in a small "bedroom" city by California standards. but I'm not parochial.

 

Hamas and ISIS are a bunch of thugs. It is the noncombatants caught in-between that is my concern.

When I say Middle East is lost. I don't mean lost to us as if it is our...I mean lost. As far as Israel goes, Hamas should be glad it is not my family they are shooting rockets at. Also if were we not aiding Israel, they would all be dead now and everyone knows it. We as Mormons once knew what it meant to be hunted, hated, killed, displaced. I wonder why we have forgotten?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I would not say so much pray for peace as pray that the Lord hasten his coming.

I am fine seeing the second coming from heaven's side of the view. Before he comes so many, even the righteous will suffer like in no other time.

[The Nehor]

When I say Middle East is lost. I don't mean lost to us as if it is our...I mean lost. As far as Israel goes, Hamas should be glad it is not my family they are shooting rockets at. Also if were we not aiding Israel, they would all be dead now and everyone knows it. We as Mormons once knew what it meant to be hunted, hated, killed, displaced. I wonder why we have forgotten?

 

Yes, living in a nation with a government that despises us being driven from land to land to the joy of our enemies. This sums up the Israeli situation quite........wait a minute.....

[Stargazer]

So at 4% the Christian population of Palestine is not insignificant. It is a minority but not insignificant minority. 0.2% (the LDS global population) is even more insignificant and yet, as a Mormon myself it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't appear our enemies feel the LDS population is insignificant either judging by the energy they expend trying to discredit us.

 

My point was that Stargazer listed a number of facts about the state of Israel, but in each case referred to "Muslims". I was simply pointing out that Muslims and Palestinians are not the same thing. Islam is a religion, being a Palestinian is not.

Official figures for 2011 was that Israel consisted of 75.4% Jews, 16.9% Muslims, 2.1% Christians, and 1.7% Druze, with the remaining 4.0% not classified by religion. The Christians are largely Palestinian. See Religion in Israel.

So my excluding Christians and Druze in my statement above is justified. Israel consists of Jews and Muslims for most practical purposes.

[volgadon]

Official figures for 2011 was that Israel consisted of 75.4% Jews, 16.9% Muslims, 2.1% Christians, and 1.7% Druze, with the remaining 4.0% not classified by religion. The Christians are largely Palestinian. See Religion in Israel.

So my excluding Christians and Druze in my statement above is justified. Israel consists of Jews and Muslims for most practical purposes.

 

Stargazer, I appreciate the support, but I feel that mere statistics like that can give an incorrect impression. The Druse, for example, are concentrated entirely in Northern Israel and the Golan Heights. They are quite visible, especially the enlightened who dress distinctly. The Arab town not far from me is 1/3 Druse, and we are quite close to Nabi Shuaib shrine. Huge, huge festival there every year. The Druse also serve in large numbers in the defence forces and the police.

[volgadon]

Shall I post passport photos to show the duration and list all the areas I was in while there along with a listing of everyone I have talked to involved in the conflict along with copies of their identification? Would that somehow magically make anything I say credible?

 

Sure, if you really want to do so. My point, though, is that your statement was ridiculously overblown, and does not correspond to reality. Presumably, had you been there, you would never have uttered such nonsense.

[The Nehor]

Sure, if you really want to do so. My point, though, is that your statement was ridiculously overblown, and does not correspond to reality. Presumably, had you been there, you would never have uttered such nonsense.

 

You presuming that I must be ignorant to be ridiculous is very dubious. Just saying. I can be ridiculous while knowing a lot about a situation. I am not of course ridiculous in this instance.

[Storm Rider]

You presuming that I must be ignorant to be ridiculous is very dubious. Just saying. I can be ridiculous while knowing a lot about a situation. I am not of course ridiculous in this instance.

 

Unfortunately, your statements made on this topic demonstrate otherwise. 

 

An aside, reputation is an odd thing. As Benjamin Franklin stated, "It takes many good deeds to build a good reputation and only one bad one to lose it."  You have gone out of your way on this Board to build a certain kind of reputation. You don't change that in an instant; it takes time.  On this topic specifically, sarcasm does not work. 

[The Nehor]

Unfortunately, your statements made on this topic demonstrate otherwise. 

 

Nope.

 

An aside, reputation is an odd thing. As Benjamin Franklin stated, "It takes many good deeds to build a good reputation and only one bad one to lose it."  You have gone out of your way on this Board to build a certain kind of reputation. You don't change that in an instant; it takes time.  On this topic specifically, sarcasm does not work. 

 

Show me a topic on which sarcasm does not work and I will show you horrid lies. And no, I did not go out of my way. I just drove in a straight line and things happen.

[volgadon]

You presuming that I must be ignorant to be ridiculous is very dubious. Just saying. I can be ridiculous while knowing a lot about a situation. I am not of course ridiculous in this instance.

 

You probably have a very loose definition of "Hell on earth" and "whenever." Ones that correspond to no reality whatsoever in this case.

[The Nehor]

You probably have a very loose definition of "Hell on earth" and "whenever." Ones that correspond to no reality whatsoever in this case.

 

To be fair you have a looser definition of "reality".