How Do You Define Your Relationship With God

[mfbukowski]

I think we continually have to guard against being overly desirous of the good feelings that often accompany communion with God.

 

I can't for the life of me understand how this could possibly be correct.

[Calm]

I think he means setting up false expectations because we want it so much, even when those desires are for God to be in our lives.

[mfbukowski]

I think he means setting up false expectations because we want it so much, even when those desires are for God to be in our lives.

Well that is possibly what he meant I guess.

 

But of course to me, since we can't know if those expectations are "false" or not until we are dead, it makes no difference to me, so I still don't understand it.

It's Pascal's wager all over again-

 

I'd rather be happy for a lifetime, believing in God, than be dour and worried about death for a lifetime, only to die and never even then find out that I was "right" about God.

 

I mean if there is no God, being right about that really doesn't have much of an upside as far as I can see.

[MiserereNobis]

I can't for the life of me understand how this could possibly be correct.

 

I think it is because if we seek the consolations instead of seeking God, then we're going to have a tough time when the consolations aren't there.  The pleasant feelings of God come and go so we shouldn't have them as the main pillar of our faith.  Spirituality is like waves with peaks and troughs.  Think of Christ on the Cross crying out, "eli eli lama sabachthani!"

 

St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul" is an excellent treatise on how the pleasant feelings are often removed on the journey towards God and why we shouldn't focus on them but should focus on God instead.

Edited July 27, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[fatherofone]

In the Joseph Smith movie, Joseph Smith said sometimes God lets you bring yourself low before he can raise you high, in my relationship with him I tend let myself get to the bottom of the pit before I even to look to him to raise me up, tho I am getting better

[3DOP]

I can't for the life of me understand how this could possibly be correct.

 

Can you for the life of you then understand how the person to whom the comments were addressed offered this reply: "THANK YOU!!!!! that was nice!"?

 

Maybe 3DOP was not understood by anybody except you to be proposing that anyone be "dour and worried about death for a lifetime."?  

[mfbukowski]

Can you for the life of you then understand how the person to whom the comments were addressed offered this reply: "THANK YOU!!!!! that was nice!"?

 

Maybe 3DOP was not understood by anybody except you to be proposing that anyone be "dour and worried about death for a lifetime."?  

Hey- I agree!

 

But how about 'splainin' it?   I have a serious problem with the ambiguity of language even when it's not ambiguous to anyone else.  Honestly- I drive my wife crazy.  I hear puns everywhere. Every word has a hundred meanings and then I add to the ambiguity when words are spoken because some words sound like others.

 

"You are my sunshine" becomes "You are my son, (named) 'Shine'"

 

Pioneer day becomes "Pie-in-ear Day". 

 

I was shocked today to hear a talk in church about keeping a journal.

 

The brother who was speaking had a Spanish accent and I thought he was talking about keeping urinals.

 

True story!

Edited July 27, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I think it is because if we seek the consolations instead of seeking God, then we're going to have a tough time when the consolations aren't there.  The pleasant feelings of God come and go so we shouldn't have them as the main pillar of our faith.  Spirituality is like waves with peaks and troughs.  Think of Christ on the Cross crying out, "eli eli lama sabachthani!"

 

St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul" is an excellent treatise on how the pleasant feelings are often removed on the journey towards God and why we shouldn't focus on them but should focus on God instead.

Ok I can see that, if that is what he meant, but my brain is rather odd I guess.

 

Instead of interpreting no consolations as "God isn't there so he doesn't exist, or hates me, or whatever", I would change the explanation to "God is testing me, so I better redouble my efforts"

 

It's just a different way of seeing it, and since I always see 9 million possible interpretations for everything there is always another 8 million 999 thousand 999 explanations other than "God doesn't exist".

 

I don't know how to "focus on God" apart from feelings when there is nothing we can know about him apart from our feelings about him.  It presumes an objectively existing God who is knowable in ways other than through our feelings.

Edited July 27, 2014 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

If this doesn't work in an LDS paradigm that's okay. I was simply offering the traditional Catholic teaching on ascetical and mystical theology, in the event that it might seem helpful to someone who seemed discouraged about unanswered prayers and perhaps feeling a little dry as far as prayer goes.

 

The consolations of God, or "pleasant feelings" associated with prayer cannot always be taken as a sign of spiritual advancement, nor can aridity necessarily be understood as a sign of spiritual decline. I am borrowing from a classic work on the subject of the interior life by Fr. Adolphe Tanqueray, which is one of maybe a half-dozen very similar works that synthesize the teachings of the Gospel with the often difficult poetry of the Carmelites, John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, and the philosophically precise language of Thos. Aquinas, in particular as he deals with psychology (study of the soul), natural and supernatural virtues, and gifts of the Spirit. It is much easier as far as I am concerned than reading the Summa or John of the Cross. 

 

Tanqueray concludes a section on consolations as follows, under the subheading Illusions of Beginners with regard to Consolations:

 

"God generally bestows sensible consolations on beginners in order to draw them to His service; He then deprives them of these in order to test and strengthen their virtue. There are some persons who because they enjoy many consolations think they have already attained to a certain degree of sanctity; if the consolations happen to vanish and spiritual dryness or aridity takes their place they think themselves lost. It is, therefore important in order that they may forestall both presumption and discouragement, that the true doctrine concerning consolations and aridity be explained to them." (The Spiritual Life, A Treatise on Ascetical and Mystical Theology, TAN Books and Publishers, 2000, p. 436)

 

This comment is followed with instruction under these headings:

1) Nature and Origin of Consolations

2) Advantages of Consolations

3) Dangers

4) Our Attitude towards Consolations

 

This is followed with a section on the subject of Aridity.

 

The portion of my comments which you found to be difficult was this:

But in general, there are some who fall away from faith in God because in His love for us, He will not grant us favors that are contrary to our best interests. It is often the case that even the most mature among us are seeking the consolations of God rather than the God of consolations. I think we continually have to guard against being overly desirous of the good feelings that often accompany communion with God.

 

 

I am not against consolations or even the desire for consolations. The collect for the feast of Pentecost finds us asking God for His consolations concluding with saying "...that we may ever enjoy His consolation." Nonetheless, it seems to me based on the reasonings of those who are much more expert than I am on the subject, that this desire to be able to sense uninterrupted feelings of warmth and affection from God are both unrealistic and contrary to the revealed will of God for us. In my opinion, God wants to lead us to a faith and confidence in Him that perseveres in the dryest of spiritual deserts, trusting that even though we be incapable of sensing God's presence, we nonetheless believe in it, thank Him for it, and most importantly act upon it. 

 

If we are expecting constant consolations, we can find ourselves trying to regain them by our own mental efforts when they have to come from God, by His grace. This would be what I meant when I suggested the idea of being "overly desirous of the good feelings that often accompany communion with God." Do we want God, or do we want the feelings that He gives us? Often communion with God is attended with sensible consolations, but not always. Therefore, our desires need to be moderate. We have to beware of obsession, "overly desirous" of consolations in prayer, wonderful as they can seem to the loving soul. Sometimes our physical, mental, and situational frailties can interfere with consolations and sometimes God, for our own benefit removes them anyway. We should not assume that during these times our prayers are without merit. When the redeemed are finally able to see and discern all of God's ways as He brought them along the road to union with Him, it seems probable that they will find that they were never more pleasing to God than when they gave Him that loving embrace even in the absence of the good feelings they would like to have enjoyed.

 

It seems to me that it is wise to be prepared for the hour when we might feel like this: "In my bed by night I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, and found him not." (Canticle of Canticles 3:1)

 

Rory

Edited July 28, 2014 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

Rory,

 

Well said, friend.  I simply mentioned St. John of the Cross -- you explained the Carmelites ideas on the dark night of the soul.

 

Thank you.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks guys.

 

I of course see epistemological problems with the whole idea of us possibly knowing the mind of God or what he is "really" doing and therefore speculating that he is doing this or that.  I don't see the point in it.

 

But I certainly respect and understand your positions.  I kind of just go with "it's a mystery, and he rewards us when he wants to". 

[saemo]

So my wife and I had a long talk the other night about our personal relationship with god,

Like how do we feel when we keep the commandment, when we don't. How we talk with him, how he talks to us.

All and all it was nice to try and define the relationship.

How do you define your relationship.

seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you

In some translations, righteousness is translated as justice. All my thoughts on my relationship to God can be summed up in this one instruction.

Goes also towards the God of consolation, in God's justice, fully revealed in Our King, Jesus Christ. He is the center of my relationship with God. I'm also reminded of Arch Bishop Oscar Romero, who in a homily, in the context of loved ones who would go missing .(kidnapped), taught that their whereabouts were known to God, and those who had taken them were also seen by God. Justice would be God's justice. He went on to say, paraphrasing, so let us pray for the people who are doing the despicable evils in our lives, for their conversion, so they may seek and know God's mercy before they are judged by God.

This is my ideal relationship with God, which has its inward aspects, but is not complete unless expressed outward, in my relationship to loved ones, coworkers, neighbors, strangers and enemies. Making the Kingdom of God visible, is the pinnacle of a relationship with God.

[3DOP]

Rory,

 

Well said, friend.  I simply mentioned St. John of the Cross -- you explained the Carmelites ideas on the dark night of the soul.

 

Thank you.

 

I appreciate it Miserere. According to my understanding, dryness can arise for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from our own faults to the "Dark Nights" described by St. John. I tend to think that the advice against being overly desirous of consolations is as important for beginners and proficients which the majority of us surely are, as for those who are truly inclining toward deeper contemplative union. 

[Jeanne]

See here, there lies a problem in defining my relationship with God.  I would love to be his daughter but at the same time, THIS daughter would love to know her mother.  The God that was taught to me was a loving God upon conditions..and yet, I have forgiven my own children of many hurtful things.  It is hard to talk to a Heavenly  Father if you feel you are constantly unworthy..talking to God should help..I need to find him on my own terms..not with the the one who threatens destroying angels..but with the God that helps me and envelopes me with understanding and love as imperfect as I am.

[mfbukowski]

See here, there lies a problem in defining my relationship with God.  I would love to be his daughter but at the same time, THIS daughter would love to know her mother.  The God that was taught to me was a loving God upon conditions..and yet, I have forgiven my own children of many hurtful things.  It is hard to talk to a Heavenly  Father if you feel you are constantly unworthy..talking to God should help..I need to find him on my own terms..not with the the one who threatens destroying angels..but with the God that helps me and envelopes me with understanding and love as imperfect as I am.

Welcome.

 

Obviously you were not raised LDS- welcome home to where you can find all those things.

 

I suspect you are saying something else- but that has not been my experience in the church at all.

[halconero]

It depends. Right now I'm looking at him through the Divine Benefactor/Adoptive Father lens. I know that he is my literal Father in spirit, but the scriptures depict him (and Christ) as the adoptive Father of the faithful in the flesh, in an incredibly beautiful way.

[BlueDreams]

My best friend who guides me and cares for me in a way no one else can. 

 

I think that's probably the best way to describe Him for me. I don't have a strong relationship with a father figure, so I don't know if that description is apt for me. Thought I know that's what he technically is. I talk to him regularly and frankly lean to a more casual, conversational speech in private prayer. Sometimes I've gotten angry with Him or a situation and yelled at him....he's often answered me with a listening ear and moments of peace down the road or immediately. I'm often sarcastic in my prayers and am just myself....though I hope at times a little bit more the humble vulnerable me than I would be with others. I thank Him for all the small things he gives me... And wonder if He's crazy for some of the other things he asks me to do or leads me towards. He insists on teaching me to see things with new eyes and finds ways to encourage me when I'm down.

 

I trust Him. I sometimes hesitate and worry, but in the end I trust Him. And I feel his Love. That I feel is the thing that defines my relationship with Him most: Loved. Even when he corrects me.

 

 When I don't keep a commandment, it depends. Some I feel an immediate guilt, I apologize, and move on. I feel the worse for the ones I know He's prodding me to do and I don't listen....and keep waiting....and keep pushing it aside. I feel really bad about those ones and have a tendency to beat myself up for not being more proactive when I know it'll end better if I just listen to Him. But I usually work through it, remembering that he knows me and probably knew I'd struggle with it anyway and that I'm learning. I feel that he's a pretty patient teacher.

 

With luv,

BD 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I need Heavenly Father in my life more now than ever. So it's my most important relationship.