Cool Video About Marriage Produced By Elder Scott

[MorningStar]

Nice how this thread immediately turned to crap. 

[MorningStar]

I don't see how the fancy ironing machine is that different than buying a washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc. - all of which were meant to make certain chores easier. Do we know the ages of their children at the time?  I wouldn't trust most of my kids with a hot iron, especially around the younger kids.  We don't know how many hours the dad worked or everything he was already doing during the year after her surgery.  That's a long time to be doing double the work.  I have a friend with a long term illness and one of the reasons she cries to me is because of how little she can do for her family and how much her husband has to do . We don't know how Elder Andersen's mother felt.  I'm sure he knows his parents well though and from his perspective, that was something his mother needed at the time.  Why would his dad go without lunch all that time if it would have been easier to just do the ironing himself? 

[Yirgacheffe]

I am baffles by the responses. Nobody wants to be useless. The story is about helping someone retain their independence. It is about helping someone continue in as normal a manner as possible. If I were permanently disables, I would not be comforted if my responsibilities were taken away; as with most, I would do into a deep depression. I would want my loved ones to help me continue as much as possible as I was before. It is a beautiful story and for anyone who has a loved who is disables, it is an act to be emulated.

She was useless if she couldn't iron?  There are hundreds of tasks involved in keeping a home why does she feel useless if she can't do one of them?  No one in my family would have let my mother go on doing something that caused her excruciating pain, let alone for a whole year.  Her "usefulness" wasn't measured by her ability to perform every single task associated with homemaking.

[Calm]

Holy cow.

While there are some interesting justifications for the "buy a fancy ironing machine so the wife can still iron for her five sons and husband" solution to the problem, answer me this:

If the story had ended with the five sons and husband learning how to iron so the post-surgery mother and wife wouldn't have to do it, would anyone think "hmmm, he could have saved some money and bought her a fancy ironing machine so they wouldn't have to iron and she could still do it"?

Or this:

If you were talking with a friend at Church and he mentioned that his wife was having difficulty doing the family's ironing, to the point of being in tears afterward, would you actually suggest to the man that he save his money and buy her a really fancy, expensive ironing machine to make it easier for her? Would that thought actually cross your mind? And if you suggested that he and the sons learn how to iron so she wouldn't have to, and he responded that he was worried this might hurt her feelings, would you not think he was insane?

I just can't see any application for that story in my marriage. If my wife is ever sick or hurt in some way (such as when she has been on bedrest with two pregnancies), my inclination is to take over her chores and allow her to rest. It has never seemed to harm her self-worth when this happens, and she even seems to appreciate it. But maybe our marriage is just weird that way.

I would suggest he think about what his wife wants as well as needs when he approached her, individuals have psychological needs as well as physical.

We are not told in the story if the couple had a discussion about what she should or could or would not do or specifically about the ironing. Why assume they did not instead of they already had it. Given her health issues having such a significant impact on the family even just financially, I see a lot of reason to assume they had. And then given she was making an effort to hide the difficulty, it appears to me that this is something she very much wanted to do for her family...perhaps she had already shared this info with her husband.

With the little information given there is no way anyone can know for sure the family dynamics save that later on when it was shared with her son, he obviously got the message from her she thought of it as a great act of love. Why can't we give the couple the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming theirs was a dysfunctional and abusive relationship?

I am not suggesting this is the perfect solution for everyone but rather going the extra mile to help others do what they believe is important is as much, if not more, a sign of love as insisting on helping in ways you feel most comfortable with. Communication is key and that is a problem with the story as it does not make it clear whether or not that happened. Given the context of the rest of the talk and 'what men do' for their families, I don't think it is a stretch to assume they had talked about it. I think it was just assumed by the speaker listeners would understand that rather than jump to the worst conclusions about the couple.

Edited July 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[MorningStar]

I would suggest he think about what his wife wants as well as needs when he approached her, individuals have psychological needs as well as physical.

We are not told in the story if the couple had a discussion about what she should or could or would not do or specifically about the ironing. Why assume they did not instead of they already had it. Given her health issues having such a significant impact on the family even just financially, I see a lot of reason to assume they had. And then given she was making an effort to hide the difficulty, it appears to me that this is something she very much wanted to do for her family...perhaps she had already shared this info with her husband.

With the little information given there is no way anyone can know for sure the family dynamics save that later on when it was shared with her son, he obviously got the message from her she thought of it as a great act of love. Why can't we give the couple the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming theirs was a dysfunctional and abusive relationship?

Exactly.  This woman was trying to hide the fact that it was causing her agonizing pain.  She didn't know her husband even knew she cried afterwards every time she ironed.  My mom loves to clean her house.  She doesn't love cooking, but she loves keeping a nice house.  She gets upset if she's ill and can't do it. 

[Calm]

I am baffles by the responses. Nobody wants to be useless. The story is about helping someone retain their independence. It is about helping someone continue in as normal a manner as possible. If I were permanently disables, I would not be comforted if my responsibilities were taken away; as with most, I would do into a deep depression. I would want my loved ones to help me continue as much as possible as I was before. It is a beautiful story and for anyone who has a loved who is disables, it is an act to be emulated.

There can be worse pains IMO than physical ones.

No one would likely have a problem with the idea of her husband working to buy her a car she could operate with her other arm so she could drive herself to a prestigious (if low paying) career job; the problem is that it is a mundane, trivial chore they themselves do not find dignifying, that it is eay taken care of in their mind by someone else doing it and there must be something wrong with the husband thinking it might be important to the wife or that there is something wrong with the wife to invest herself into it...so treat them both as mentally and emotionally deficient rather than assume there were likely endless talks when the cancer hit about what their life would be like and decisions were made that were mature and loving even if they weren't the ones we might personally make.

Add-on: I see Ken had much the same idea.

Edited July 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

She was useless if she couldn't iron? There are hundreds of tasks involved in keeping a home why does she feel useless if she can't do one of them? No one in my family would have let my mother go on doing something that caused her excruciating pain, let alone for a whole year. Her "usefulness" wasn't measured by her ability to perform every single task associated with homemaking.

So the woman was mentally deficient for making the choice that ironing allowed her to contribute in one important to her way to the family and it should have been taken away from her no matter what. She deserved to be treated as a child even if she had decided to work through the pain as it wasn't permanently hurting here. What she wanted didn't matter. Her feelings were not important, only that you (in the place of the husband) wouldn't have to endure seeing her in pain doing something for you because that would make you feel guilty. Because if she wanted to do the ironing inspite of the pain that is what it would come down to...doing it your way because you couldn't stand to see her suffer or you controlling and putting your own need second to respect her wishes no matter how crazy you thought they were.

And it must be only brainwashing or oppression that caused her to find value in helping her family look good in her eyes...what sane, intelligent woman would care about that?

And what if it caused her pain to speak or to hug her children? Should she be forced to stay silent and her kids forbidden to approach her in order to protect her?

Sometimes people don't want to be protected in the ways we most want to protect them. Is it always best to insist we are wiser and force them to act in ways for their own good? Should we really treat other adults in our lives as children just because they see things differently than we do?

Edited July 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Rain]

Fifteen years ago I broke my leg terribly. Was on crutches for 6 months. Couldn't drive because we only had a standard. Had a hard time getting up and down the stairs to go laundry.

Three times I have been put on bed rest during my pregnancies. Once in the hospital. Once at home and once both places. I could only get up to go to the bathroom and have a short shower.

I did spend extra time with my children and cherish that time, but there is only so much time a young child wants to spend by mom's side reading books etc. And I saw how much extra work my husband was doing and it pained me that not only did he have his job and my job, but the extra job of caring for me. I was so grateful to get the computer set by me so I could work on the finances though it was awkward while laying down. I was grateful when someone let me fold clean dish towels and cloths. I loved that as an RS counselor, sisters came to my bedroom so I could do VT interviews with them. Yes, I enjoyed that one on one time with my kids, but I am also grateful that others let me choose to do other things I was capable of doing even when it was difficult. I'm grateful they didn't think they needed to make every choice for me when so many choices were already taken away from me.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Rain

[Calm]

"I'm grateful they didn't think they needed to make every choice for me when so many choices were already taken away from me"

Excellent way of putting it. That is exactly what I was trying to convey.

[cinepro]

She was useless if she couldn't iron?  There are hundreds of tasks involved in keeping a home why does she feel useless if she can't do one of them?  No one in my family would have let my mother go on doing something that caused her excruciating pain, let alone for a whole year.  Her "usefulness" wasn't measured by her ability to perform every single task associated with homemaking.

 

That's one of the most mystifying things about the justifications for the story.  The Church might have a really positive and uplifting view towards womanhood (and motherhood), but I'm not sure equating a woman's self worth with her ability to iron is the best way to express that view to the world.

 

At the very least, why didn't the husband think to ask "Honey, I've saved up some money to buy this fancy ironing machine.  Or, the boys and I could just do the ironing and you could rest.  But if ironing gives you a feeling of self-worth and purpose, I don't want to take that away from you.  Which would you prefer?"

 

I would be fascinated to present this story to groups of engaged men and women before they get married, and see if they have different reactions to the story.  My wife and I had the exact same reaction, but I wonder if there are couples out there that might see it differently?  If a woman thought the husband made a poor decision, but her fiancee thought the man acted lovingly and rationally, that could be an interesting window into their views on the roles of husbands and wives in marriage.

Edited July 13, 2014 by cinepro

[Calm]

How do you know that conversation minus the saving money for the machine and mentioning he had seen her continuing pain that hadnt healed during that time hadn't taken place?

If he is willing to go without lunch, don't you think he'd be willing to have discussed all that with his wife already?

Edited July 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

I am baffles by the responses. Nobody wants to be useless. The story is about helping someone retain their independence. It is about helping someone continue in as normal a manner as possible. If I were permanently disables, I would not be comforted if my responsibilities were taken away; as with most, I would do into a deep depression. I would want my loved ones to help me continue as much as possible as I was before. It is a beautiful story and for anyone who has a loved who is disables, it is an act to be emulated.

 

Ironing her husband's and five sons' clothes doesn't make a woman independent. It is also not the woman's "responsibility".  But I guess it might make her "useful". 

 

I honestly can't believe that rational people in 2014 are arguing that a woman suffering from cancer and following what appears to have been a massive surgery needs to keep ironing her family's clothes in order to maintain her sense of worth and "usefulness".  Forget "Ordain Women".  Someone should start the "Women are Useful Even if they Don't Iron" movement. 

[MorningStar]

That's one of the most mystifying things about the justifications for the story.  The Church might have a really positive and uplifting view towards womanhood (and motherhood), but I'm not sure equating a woman's self worth with her ability to iron is the best way to express that view to the world.

 

At the very least, why didn't the husband think to ask "Honey, I've saved up some money to buy this fancy ironing machine.  Or, the boys and I could just do the ironing and you could rest.  But if ironing gives you a feeling of self-worth and purpose, I don't want to take that away from you.  Which would you prefer?"

 

I would be fascinated to present this story to groups of engaged men and women before they get married, and see if they have different reactions to the story.  My wife and I had the exact same reaction, but I wonder if there are couples out there that might see it differently?  If a woman thought the husband made a poor decision, but her fiancee thought the man acted lovingly and rationally, that could be an interesting window into their views on the roles of husbands and wives in marriage.

Maybe younger generations don't understand, but there used to be a lot more pride in working hard.  With all of our modern conveniences these days, stay at home moms complain a lot about how hard their jobs are and expect their husbands to do a lot around the house.  Previous generations took care of children (often with one car in the family) and they had to hang clothes to dry, wash dishes by hand, etc. 

[cinepro]

How do you know that conversation minus the saving money for the machine and mentioning he had seen her continuing pain that hadnt healed during that time hadn't taken place?

If he is willing to go without lunch, don't you think he'd be willing to have discussed all that with his wife already?

 

In the chronology of the story, the husband doesn't tell about the missed lunches and saved money until after the machine is bought.

 

If the husband had offered to help with the ironing, that would have been a very important point.  Again, I'm most surprised that Elder Andersen could tell that story and there wasn't some little realization about what, exactly, is happening in the story and how that sounds to normal people.

 

Again, I've only been married once, so my views on marriage are largely formed by my lovely but headstrong wife.  I can only say that at the times she was on bedrest and was unable to do chores, if I had saved hundreds of dollars and spent countless hours towards some contraption (say, a portable sink on wheels with a couple hundred feet of tubing for water that would roll up to the bed so she could do dishes without getting out of bed), I would not be married right now, and it's possible I wouldn't be anywhere right now, depending on whether there were any sharp knives in the first batch of dishes that I rolled over to the bed.

[MorningStar]

Ironing her husband's and five sons' clothes doesn't make a woman independent. It is also not the woman's "responsibility".  But I guess it might make her "useful". 

 

I honestly can't believe that rational people in 2014 are arguing that a woman suffering from cancer and following what appears to have been a massive surgery needs to keep ironing her family's clothes in order to maintain her sense of worth and "usefulness".  Forget "Ordain Women".  Someone should start the "Women are Useful Even if they Don't Iron" movement. 

We're not saying the woman wasn't useful.  People with longterm health problems start to feel bad that they can't contribute to their family as much as their spouses.  I have a friend who is still struggling after years with chronic pain.  She spent a lot of time surfing blogs and stuff and felt guilty about how overwhelmed her husband was.  They had to hire a nanny to come in and take care of the kids.  Her husband was doing most of the laundry, cleaning, cooking, etc.  I finally suggested that she could order groceries online to take that load off of him and all he would have to do is put them away when they were delivered.  Of course a person in severe pain shouldn't be expected to do as much as they did before, but it's good to give them theability to do something - anything if they can.

 

My aunt was paralyzed with three small children and a loser husband.  Someone set up her van with hand brakes and she got up at 5am to do a paper route with her kids.  Her oldest son ran all of the papers to the door.  I also saw a picture of her recently sitting in a bathtub as she tiled the walls.  She was absolutley amazing - not one to say, "I'm disabled.  Everyone do everything for me now." 

 

And getting 5 boys to cooperate and do most of the housework?!  Hahahahahaha.  Good one.  It took my 3 boys over 3 hours to clean their room today because they were fighting. 

[cinepro]

We're not saying the woman wasn't useful.

 

To be clear, Freedom said "Nobody wants to be useless".

 

Interestingly, I was searching for more information about when this might have happened, and there's a story in a newspaper called The Times of Trenton of a "Paul Christofferson" of Trenton, New Jersey being severely injured in an accident at home involving an "iron press" in 1956.  I wonder if he's any relation to Elder Christofferson. 

Edited July 13, 2014 by cinepro

[MorningStar]

To be clear, Freedom said "Nobody wants to be useless".

 

Interestingly, I was searching for more information about when this might have happened, and there's a story in a newspaper called The Idaho State Journal of a "Lyle Andersen" of Pocatello, Idaho being severely injured in an accident at home involving an "iron press" in 1956.  I wonder if he's any relation to Elder Andersen. 

The talk was actually by Elder Christofferson.   

 

It's easy for a person to feel useless when they're laid up.  I was on crutches for 4 months when my boys were 6, 3, and 2.  It drove me crazy how much I couldn't do!  At first I couldn't even shower without help and we had kids who need help with baths, we had a nasty stomach flu and I couldn't carry their soiled bedding to the washer, I couldn't even cook pasta because I couldn't drain the pot of boiling water, etc.  It wasn't like the ward was going to make us dinners for 4 months.  Meanwhile, my husband had started a new job and it was going terrible due to the mess that was left behind for him . He left a 5 or 6 in the morning and didn't get home until almost 8 at night.  Then he would get home and needed to do practically everything except for what I could microwave in the oven or maybe cook on the stove.  I couldn't put my son down for a nap, couldn't drive my oldest to Kindergarten because it would involve chasing my 2-year-old, etc.  I felt like a huge burden on everyone and was thrilled to be able to change my friend's baby's diaper one day when she was taking care of me.  Finally something I could do!  I couldn't grocery shop without someone helping me or anything.  Friends would pick up my kids and take them to the beach.  I was grateful, but I wanted to take them to the beach!  I was on crutched from the beginnng of Spring Break until almost the end of Summer.  One of the hardest trials I've ever had.

[cinepro]

The talk was actually by Elder Christofferson. 

 

Dang, I always get the three after Bednar mixed up. Turns out there was also an "iron press" accident in New Jersey with a Paul Christofferson around the same time, and I've updated my post. Those things were apparently very dangerous.

Edited July 13, 2014 by cinepro

[MorningStar]

Dang, I always get the three after Bednar mixed up. 

Don't worry.  They might still be related. 

[Kenngo1969]

If we're just going to be critical, darn it, let's at least get back to the video that is (supposed to be) the subject of the thread.  I am thoroughly appalled that the man in that video apparently has to "go it alone" in caring for his wife when it is so difficult for him.  I mean, did you see the part where (despite the fact that she, apparently, can hardly move, herself) she had to reach up and steady his arm so that he could get the spoon to her mouth?  Appalling!  Mormons claim to care about each other, and about others.  The only picture seen is one of him and her, so they probably didn't have any children.  But where are the Home Teachers?  Where are the Visiting Teachers?  Where are the members of the Bishopric, or of the Relief Society, or of the Young Men and Young Women programs???  Nobody else could cook?  Nobody else could bake the batch of cookies the man baked for his wife?  Nobody could take dictation so that he, with his severe tremors, didn't have to write that card to his wife by himself?  No doubt, it was very dangerous for someone in his condition to use a sharp instrument (What was he doing with that pair of scissors? ) to trim the flowers he gave to her.  Why couldn't somebody else do it?  Where were they all??!!!

 

And by this we see that if one is determined to look down his nose in judgment at others, most any such account can be used to beat our brothers and sisters senseless!

 

Unbelievable!

Edited July 13, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

 

To be clear, Freedom said "Nobody wants to be useless".

 

Interestingly, I was searching for more information about when this might have happened, and there's a story in a newspaper called The Times of Trenton of a "Paul Christofferson" of Trenton, New Jersey being severely injured in an accident at home involving an "iron press" in 1956.  I wonder if he's any relation to Elder Christofferson. 

Oh, so now the facts all of the sudden are important?  So far, you haven't let any inconvenient little things like facts get in the way of your indictment of Elder Christofferson's father.  Why start now?

 

P.S.: OK, so Freedom was somewhat imprecise in his use of language.  A better way to say it would be, "Nobody wants to feel useless."  The point still stands.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

Speaking as someone who can't do much physically, it is often the littlest things that become very important to me. I can't do shopping often but I try and make sure the counter is cleaned before my husband gets home so it saves him that one little effort. I also try to have the kitchen tidy even if I can't stand up long enough to clean the whole thing so when he walks in the door at night after a long day his first thought isn't "another thing I have to do"....and he never complains out loud when he does have to do it, I can just see it in his shoulders as they slump a bit.

And no, I have never ever thought my role as wife and mother included housekeeping for others once they were past a certain age. That responsibility comes to me by living in a house and using up resources.

Edited July 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

If we're just going to be critical, darn it, let's at least get back to the video that is (supposed to be) the subject of the thread.  I am thoroughly appalled that the man in that video apparently has to "go it alone" in caring for his wife when it is so difficult for him.  I mean, did you see the part where (despite the fact that she, apparently, can hardly move, herself) she had to reach up and steady his arm so that he could get the spoon to her mouth?  Appalling!  Mormons claim to care about each other, and about others.  The only picture seen is one of him and her, so they probably didn't have any children.  But where are the Home Teachers?  Where are the Visiting Teachers?  Where are the members of the Bishopric, or of the Relief Society, or of the Young Men and Young Women programs???  Nobody else could cook?  Nobody else could bake the batch of cookies the man baked for his wife?  Nobody could take dictation so that he, with his severe tremors, didn't have to write that card to his wife by himself?  No doubt, it was very dangerous for someone in his condition to use a sharp instrument (What was he doing with that pair of scissors? ) to trim the flowers he gave to her.  Why couldn't somebody else do it?  Where were they all??!!!

 

And by this we see that if one is determined to look down his nose in judgment at others, most any such account can be used to beat our brothers and sisters senseless! Ŷ

 

Unbelievable!

and that he put his wife through the indignity of being spilled on and her hair just barely put up instead of neatly in place. She had to wait so long for him to get anything done too. She had the right to be fed easily and looking sharp with great hair and makeup. And instead she has to settle for barely put together on top of feeling bad that she is putting her husband to all that work. If he really cared about her, he would have paid someone else to do it right.

[juliann]

Ironing her husband's and five sons' clothes doesn't make a woman independent. It is also not the woman's "responsibility".  But I guess it might make her "useful". 

 

I honestly can't believe that rational people in 2014 are arguing that a woman suffering from cancer and following what appears to have been a massive surgery needs to keep ironing her family's clothes in order to maintain her sense of worth and "usefulness".  Forget "Ordain Women".  Someone should start the "Women are Useful Even if they Don't Iron" movement. 

 

But it was a woman's job back then.  And it was a huge job. I remembering it taking an entire day.  My mom would dampen the clothes and keep them in a plastic bags.  She would then set the ironing board up in front of the TV.  Everything needed ironing then. I doubt it would even have occurred to men they could do it.  One of the competitions of the old Mrs. America pageant was ironing.  I am quite sure she would not have allowed him to do it if he could, it would have eaten up a good portion of his after work time and he would have also had to help out in other ways. We did not have all the time saving modern appliances back then. I remember the first microwave in our neighborhood.

 

It sounds awful the husband would let her suffer...but I can see where it would have been like asking her to stand in as a vet when he was sick. We just tend to devalue women's work today. 

 

And my gosh, this is intended to be a parable of sorts. Why the rigid reading?

[Yirgacheffe]

That's one of the most mystifying things about the justifications for the story.  The Church might have a really positive and uplifting view towards womanhood (and motherhood), but I'm not sure equating a woman's self worth with her ability to iron is the best way to express that view to the world.

 

At the very least, why didn't the husband think to ask "Honey, I've saved up some money to buy this fancy ironing machine.  Or, the boys and I could just do the ironing and you could rest.  But if ironing gives you a feeling of self-worth and purpose, I don't want to take that away from you.  Which would you prefer?"

 

I would be fascinated to present this story to groups of engaged men and women before they get married, and see if they have different reactions to the story.  My wife and I had the exact same reaction, but I wonder if there are couples out there that might see it differently?  If a woman thought the husband made a poor decision, but her fiancee thought the man acted lovingly and rationally, that could be an interesting window into their views on the roles of husbands and wives in marriage.

So far all my co-workers have had the same reaction as I did.  They see it as heartless.