The Whole Truth About Helmuth Hubener?

[mormonnewb]

Omni,

You should listen to the podcast I linked to. It deals with the environment at that time, why people were accepting of the Nazis and even joined them. What made Helmuth a remarkable young man is that he could see through the facade and was able to even predict with great accuracy future outcomes, even though he was only 16. The Gestapo were convinced there was an adult involved. Even a college professor, iirc, because of the unusual intelligence and insight the boy had.

The comment by the Nobel Laureate where he stated 'why did he see and I did not, why did he do and I did not' was the most moving part of the podcast for me. What an awful burden to carry.

Otoh the ability to forgive that Karl was able to experience after his extreme hardships (termed miraculous by him) teaches us that such burdens can be placed at Christ's feet whether one is the victim or the sinner.

Okay. It appears that the situation has been dealt with truthfully by the Church. I'm satisfied! (No snark or sarcasm. I got what I was asking for.)

Thanks, calmoriah!

[mormonnewb]

https://ldsmag.com/article/1/11597/1/page-1

 

here you go! exed, executed and reinstated and all on the same page!

FYI ... The exed and reinstated info was added by a commenter, not the author.

[smac97]

So if a local leader excommunicates someone it has no effect? 

 

John Dehlin and Kate Kelly will be so relieved.

 

Golly, it sure would be nice to have a good faith conversation about topics like this.

 

If a local leader excommunicates someone improperly and in violation of the Church's doctrines and guidelines, or if the excommunication is improper in some other way not immediately discernible to our mortal minds, then the excommunication - while having an effect in this life - will not affect the eschatological destiny of the individual.  God is just.  He will sort it all out and right any wrongs or errors made by His servants.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[smac97]

Okay. It appears that the situation has been dealt with truthfully by the Church. I'm satisfied! (No snark or sarcasm. I got what I was asking for.)

Right. "No snark or sarcasm," just a public accusation by you against your purported faith of being guilty of "the height of mendacity," an accusation that turns out to be based on substantial ignorance of the subject matter.

Have you ever thought of opening a catering business in Provo? You could call it "The Provocateurer," and we'd all be in on the joke.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

Okay. It appears that the situation has been dealt with truthfully by the Church. I'm satisfied! (No snark or sarcasm. I got what I was asking for.)

Thanks, calmoriah!

No problem. I think BYUTV has a mini culture of their own where extreme caution is used by some there so as not to offend anyone at all, ever. I may be way off base since my opinion is based on a limited occurrences over an extended period of time, but I know of at least one program that had been all approved and ready to go that was canceled at the last minutes because it was feared it would offend the Affirmation type group's...ones that were promoting behaviour in direct opposition to the church, while the program itself was fully supportive. A couple of other less drastic events seemed to confirm my impression So I made a slogan for it "BYU, Non-Controversial TV, guaranteed you will get your news only when it is no longer news". I would loved to be proved wrong and I am grateful it appears to be a pocket culture at BYU though I need to take some time talking to profs I know to see if it sneaks out of the Communications Dept. or wherever it hides at night in attempts to suck the life out of other programs.

[Calm]

Golly, it sure would be nice to have a good faith conversation about topics like this.

 

If a local leader excommunicates someone improperly and in violation of the Church's doctrines and guidelines, or if the excommunication is improper in some other way not immediately discernible to our mortal minds, then the excommunication - while having an effect in this life - will not affect the eschatological destiny of the individual.  God is just.  He will sort it all out and right any wrongs or errors made by His servants.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

And I doubt it will have an effect in this life no longer than it takes the time to discover the error. No one believes here that if a bishop got all the records of his ward on the last day of his calling and stamped them all in big red letters "Exxxxxxed" that the next bishop coming in would do anything but tell the ward clerk to put the files right and call up the SP for a little talk about anything in the ward it might help me to know about?

I would like to know the responses of the family and those involved when they heard it, did they see it as smoke and mirrors created to protect them from being the next taken off to be tortured or as a betrayal of the bravest of the all...or maybe both. From the way Karl described Helmuth, even though the torture had forced the names of his friends from his mouth, he played to the audience to ensure he was the one found worthy of death, challenging all the way to the chopping block. Doing what he could to protect those he loved. If so perhaps he welcomed the excommunication as yet another, maybe even the best way to do that. The boy was capable of seeing the future in clear sight if a bit naive about his friends, he must have been fully aware of how close he was bringing his ward family and all the 12,000 German Mormons to the brink of death by his actions. He had attracted a lot of attention. Hitler himself overrided the appeal for clemency from the Gestapo officer who hunted him down, no less. They created a new law so they could execute a minor for treason.

[blooit]

One additional consideration I think is to ask what protection did the excommunication provide to the rest of the congregation.  There was some risk that the entire congregation could have experienced some pretty serious consequences as they were tied in with Helmuth and the other two young men.  I am familiar, even today, with excommunications that are primarily to "protect the reputation of the church."

[mormonnewb]

Right. "No snark or sarcasm," just a public accusation by you against your purported faith of being guilty of "the height of mendacity," an accusation that turns out to be based on substantial ignorance of the subject matter.Have you ever thought of opening a catering business in Provo? You could call it "The Provocateurer," and we'd all be in on the joke.Thanks,-Smac

Purported faith? Oh, that's right. I'm a black man pretending to be a Mormon, right? Because we all know how much street cred that buys in the "hood." Or perhaps, you think that I'm trying to build a niche business of some kind by catering to 2% of the US population. If that were the case, why wouldn't I be NativeAmericanNewb and increase my "target market" by 50%. Or how about this? I could just stay black and service 36 million as opposed to 6 million.

About the only thing more absurd than me joining this church in the first place is to fake membership in it. Or perhaps, it's more absurd that we are so paranoid that the saints will believe ANYTHING if it comes from a Mormon. After all, isn't that why John and Kte must go? Because other Mormons will be "fooled" by them? However, once they can no longer claim to be Momons, the tribe will be safe because Mormon only accept lies from other Mormons, right?

[Kenngo1969]

Purported faith? Oh, that's right. I'm a black man pretending to be a Mormon, right?  ...

You got 'im, MormonNewb.  Saw right through 'im.  Really ... Smac97's real problem isn't with what you actually said! ... Nope!  He's just a closet racist, like the rest of us white Mormon folks!  Keep preachin' that gospel!  You'll cure us all of our racism in time!

 

"I'm black!  How dare you question my logic!  You're just a racist!" 

Edited June 22, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Duncan]

FYI ... The exed and reinstated info was added by a commenter, not the author.

 

 

jiminy christmas! someone named Phaedra was the only commentator 

"We certainly cannot judge those who remained silent in Germany or opposed the efforts of these three brave LDS young men.  The pressures to support the German government before and during the war were enormous, the propaganda spread by the Nazis was compelling, and the risks of showing any signs of rebellion were swift and terrifying.  Only God can judge the local branch president who mistakenly excommunicated young Helmuth after his arrest.  Fortunately the Church leaders in Salt Lake posthumously reinstated Helmuth in 1946, shortly after the war ended, for the mistaken excommunication that did not follow proper procedure."

was all written by the author!

 

signed, sealed and delivered and no cover up here!

Edited June 22, 2014 by Duncan

[halconero]

You got 'im, MormonNewb. Saw right through 'im. Really ... Smac97's real problem isn't with what you actually said! ... Nope! He's just a closet racist, like the rest of us white Mormon folks! Keep preachin' that gospel! You'll cure us all of our racism in time!

"I'm black! How dare you question my logic! You're just a racist!"

This is getting ugly. This is how people get offended a leave the Church. And I sympathize with those who do.

Let's keep being our brother's keeper.

[Hestia]

This is indeed getting ugly.