Joseph Smith: Stove Stealing? Put Down Your Guns?

[Darren10]

Glenn Beck recently gave a speech / sermon at Liberty University. His main theme was that the Bible is an enemy to facsism which I wholeheartedly agree. While his overall theme may have been correct it seems his detailed examples may have been off. A blaring example which was brought up to me recently in recent online blogging was that the Purple Triangle was for Jehovah's Witnesses, not "Bible scholars" as Beck said it was. While the Purple Triangle was not exclusively used for Jehovah's Witnesses, other Christian denominations wore them on their concentration camp outfits as well and therefore there may be some truth to being for Bible believers (which can very much stand independently from Bible "scholars"), by and large the Purple Triangle was for Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

I just began to reveiw Beck's speech / sermon and he said that Joseph Smith was accused by sheriffs of stealing a stove and on the back of his arrest warrant (I think his final one) Joseph Smith wrote, according to Beck, "to his people", to place down their guns. 

 

This seems odd to me first and foremost since I don't recall ever hearing either of these before and regarding his admonishment "to his people", ergo; the Mormons, to put down their guns, Joseph Smith himself, while jailed, brandished a smuggled pistol and fired it into the mob actively seeking to do him and his jailed companions physical harm. Not only do I not condemn him for shooting into that crown of people, I openly admire him for it but this is not the mark of a man who'd exhort "his people" to put down their guns".

 

So far internet searching on either case has brought up nothing. Even on FAIR. Anyinsights on these topics which may or may not be historically accurate?

[Raharu]

I don't think it's fair to say that a man firing a gun at a mob is not the mark of someone who would urge his people to put down their guns.

 

The meaning could be, "Put down your guns, [i got this]." I don't mean to say that Smith planned on firing upon the mob at the start. He may also have meant it as, "Put down your guns, [God will provide a way]." Following this line of thinking, when later facing vicious mob Smith may have looked at the gun in his hand and thought, this must be the way God provided. Of course, it could have been sheer panic, too.

 

I do not know many of the facts surrounding the situation, but I don't think it's unusual for a patriarch to protect his charges by urging them not to fight and then later fight himself.

[USU78]

Glenn Beck recently gave a speech / sermon at Liberty University. His main theme was that the Bible is an enemy to facsism which I wholeheartedly agree. While his overall theme may have been correct it seems his detailed examples may have been off. A blaring example which was brought up to me recently in recent online blogging was that the Purple Triangle was for Jehovah's Witnesses, not "Bible scholars" as Beck said it was. While the Purple Triangle was not exclusively used for Jehovah's Witnesses, other Christian denominations wore them on their concentration camp outfits as well and therefore there may be some truth to being for Bible believers (which can very much stand independently from Bible "scholars"), by and large the Purple Triangle was for Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

The term used by the Nazi bureaucrats was Bibelforscher, which pretty much means bible scholar in German [the verb forschen translates as "investigate, research, study a subject closely; energetic, vigorous, full of energy, outspoken, frank, straightforward" per "babylon.com."  My Langenscheidt's sez it means investigate, seek, inquire and the like.

 

Yes, it was applied only to the JWs.

 

Can't expect his researchers to get everything exactly right:  I just happened to have studied it at Mauthausen visitor center.

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[theplains]

Not only do I not condemn him for shooting into that crown of people, I openly admire him for it but this is not the mark of a man who'd exhort "his people" to put down their guns".

 

Neither is it the mark of a man who would say, "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am 

calm as a summer’s morning".  This particular 'lamb' became like a cornered badger and tried

to exact revenge as his prospects for survival were dimming.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Darren10]

Nevo;

Thank you. That really hits the spot!

[Darren10]

Neither is it the mark of a man who would say, "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am 

calm as a summer’s morning".  This particular 'lamb' became like a cornered badger and tried

to exact revenge as his prospects for survival were dimming.

 

Regards,

Jim

I don't know so much for revenge as for protecting himself if not for those who follow him. Nothing vengeful about taking a few of the enemies out before being taken yourself. That makes the world a better place.

[Darren10]

The term used by the Nazi bureaucrats was Bibelforscher, which pretty much means bible scholar in German [the verb forschen translates as "investigate, research, study a subject closely; energetic, vigorous, full of energy, outspoken, frank, straightforward" per "babylon.com." My Langenscheidt's sez it means investigate, seek, inquire and the like.

Yes, it was applied only to the JWs.

Can't expect his researchers to get everything exactly right: I just happened to have studied it at Mauthausen visitor center.

I've no doubt that Jehovah's Witnesses are diligent Bible students, in fact I outright admire their emphasis on scripture studies, but the primary reason they went off to the concentration camps was for their refusal to take up arms for Germany. Their adherence to scripture, particularly their usage of the Jewish term "Jehovah" (English for YHWH) placed the, at odds with their Nazi overlords but that's not why they went to the camps.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Darren10

[Garden Girl]

I don't know so much for revenge as for protecting himself if not for those who follow him. Nothing vengeful about taking a few of the enemies out before being taken yourself. That makes the world a better place.

 

People seem to forget that the "gun" or "pistol" that was smuggled in to Joseph was a very small (fits into the palm of the hand) what I called a "pea shooter" but there is another name something like "pepperbox(?)"... anyway, as the mob was firing with rifles and other guns  through the door hitting Hyrum in the face causing his death, Joseph stuck his arm out and blindly fired his little pea shooter/pepperbox into the mob as they pushed on the door.  He wounded two, killing no one... while trying to protect his fellow prisoners whom he could see the mob meant to kill.  They burst into the room, killing Joseph... only a watch saved one of the others, and the other (I forget which it was) was able to roll under the bed and hide... someone yelled that the Mormons were coming and the mob left the room and fled the scene... their work was done... Hyrum and Joseph were dead.

 

GG

[Darren10]

People seem to forget that the "gun" or "pistol" that was smuggled in to Joseph was a very small (fits into the palm of the hand) what I called a "pea shooter" but there is another name something like "pepperbox(?)"... anyway, as the mob was firing with rifles and other guns  through the door hitting Hyrum in the face causing his death, Joseph stuck his arm out and blindly fired his little pea shooter/pepperbox into the mob as they pushed on the door.  He wounded two, killing no one... while trying to protect his fellow prisoners whom he could see the mob meant to kill.  They burst into the room, killing Joseph... only a watch saved one of the others, and the other (I forget which it was) was able to roll under the bed and hide... someone yelled that the Mormons were coming and the mob left the room and fled the scene... their work was done... Hyrum and Joseph were dead.

 

GG

Sounds right.

[Storm Rider]

People seem to forget that the "gun" or "pistol" that was smuggled in to Joseph was a very small (fits into the palm of the hand) what I called a "pea shooter" but there is another name something like "pepperbox(?)"... anyway, as the mob was firing with rifles and other guns  through the door hitting Hyrum in the face causing his death, Joseph stuck his arm out and blindly fired his little pea shooter/pepperbox into the mob as they pushed on the door.  He wounded two, killing no one... while trying to protect his fellow prisoners whom he could see the mob meant to kill.  They burst into the room, killing Joseph... only a watch saved one of the others, and the other (I forget which it was) was able to roll under the bed and hide... someone yelled that the Mormons were coming and the mob left the room and fled the scene... their work was done... Hyrum and Joseph were dead.

 

GG

 

I suspect if Joseph had been firing rubber bands there would be critics, and those who are influenced by them, that would accuse Joseph of fighting like a demon or a man possessed.  

 

Spin is everything when it comes to propaganda and the fact Joseph did not stand peacefully by while a mob knocked down the door is the entire basis for some to say he was not a martyr.  The fact that he tried, with whatever was at hand, to protect his brother and friends is viewed as the act of a cur and no good, filthy Mormon. 

 

The facts are that a pepperbox is a small caliber pistol, could shoot several shots, and it could kill if fired up close or getting lucky and hitting a vital spot - pistols are not for shooting from a distance. I wonder how I would respond to a mob coming after me or anyone else for that matter. It would seem that a time of high anxiety and emotion made worse by an invading, overwhelming force with painted faces and shouting all types of obscenities that I would use whatever I had, even a rubber band, to protect those I was with as much as myself.  

[volgadon]

 

The term used by the Nazi bureaucrats was Bibelforscher, which pretty much means bible scholar in German [the verb forschen translates as "investigate, research, study a subject closely; energetic, vigorous, full of energy, outspoken, frank, straightforward" per "babylon.com."  My Langenscheidt's sez it means investigate, seek, inquire and the like.

 

Yes, it was applied only to the JWs.

 

Can't expect his researchers to get everything exactly right:  I just happened to have studied it at Mauthausen visitor center.

 

The Bible Students was how the various followers of Russell's teachings referred to themselves before the split that produced the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

 

I've no doubt that Jehovah's Witnesses are diligent Bible students, in fact I outright admire their emphasis on scripture studies, but the primary reason they went off to the concentration camps was for their refusal to take up arms for Germany. Their adherence to scripture, particularly their usage of the Jewish term "Jehovah" (English for YHWH) placed the, at odds with their Nazi overlords but that's not why they went to the camps.

 

Their study of the Bible, I think, was indeed one of the main reasons why they went to the camps. The volkisch groups considered the Bible Students part of an international Judeo-Masono-Bolshevik movement aimed at perverting Christian churches by using the Bible as a tool. It could hardly have been lost on the NSDAP that the Jehovah Witnesses drew such notions as pacifism from their Bible study, and that their emphasis on it was a dangerous and attractive alternative to the traditional hierarchial, state-subordinate churches.

[Pahoran]

Neither is it the mark of a man who would say, "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am 

calm as a summer’s morning".  This particular 'lamb' became like a cornered badger and tried

to exact revenge as his prospects for survival were dimming.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

"Revenge?"

 

In whose infantile fantasy?

 

What's the matter, Flatlander Jim?  Are you mad at Joseph for shooting at your kind of people?

 

You know, all those good Bible-worshippingreading Chrisjuns, whose hearts were as black as their faces, and whose murderous actions you so wholeheartedly approve?

 

 

Regards,

Pahoran

 

You are out of the thread.

[ALarson]

People seem to forget that the "gun" or "pistol" that was smuggled in to Joseph was a very small (fits into the palm of the hand) what I called a "pea shooter" but there is another name something like "pepperbox(?)"... anyway, as the mob was firing with rifles and other guns  through the door hitting Hyrum in the face causing his death, Joseph stuck his arm out and blindly fired his little pea shooter/pepperbox into the mob as they pushed on the door.  He wounded two, killing no one... while trying to protect his fellow prisoners whom he could see the mob meant to kill.  They burst into the room, killing Joseph... only a watch saved one of the others, and the other (I forget which it was) was able to roll under the bed and hide... someone yelled that the Mormons were coming and the mob left the room and fled the scene... their work was done... Hyrum and Joseph were dead.

 

GG

John Taylor was the one you refer to above when you stated "only a watch saved one of the others".  However I just recently read somewhere that his watch had been analyzed and it is now believed that it was actually damaged when he fell against the window sill rather than by a bullet.

 

Does anyone know any more about this?

(I'll try to look it up too.)

[ALarson]

Ok, I found where I'd read it.  It was in Deseret News and here's the link:  

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705385933/Education-Week-Separating-facts-from-fiction-about-the-Prophets-death.html?pg=all

 

Title:  "Education Week:  Separating facts from fiction about the Prophet's death" and here's a quote from the article (it goes on to explain more):

 

The size of the bullet hole in John Taylor’s pocket watch that was with him in Carthage Jail was the last detail Joseph Lynn Lyon needed in his research about the 1816 muskets that were likely used by the mob.

The pocket watch had been damaged during the shootings that resulted in the deaths of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum and the hands had stopped at 5:16.

The answer he received: “There isn’t a hole in John Taylor’s watch.”

.....

 

 

Also, I found this posted elsewhere:

My source for 2 above is Don Enders. Don also told me that they did tests of the John Taylor watch that supposedly was struck by a ball, saving his life. Think CSI. Well, it turns out that the damage to the watch wasn’t caused by a bullet. They think that Taylor fell from the impact of being hit by a ball and fell against the window sill, and that the force of that impact was what damaged the watch to record for time immemorial the time of the attack.

 

 

 

[Porter_Rockwell]

Glenn Beck recently gave a speech / sermon at Liberty University.

Glenn Beck is in media. He's a charismatic chauffeur of other people's ideas, that he enhances with a healthy dose of his personal views. He's also a capitalist (I'm fine with that), who is very responsive to his target market audience. For those two reasons, a huge amount of scepticism should be applied to the non-academic, non-accredited often nonsensical edicts. For every one item of objective consideration he forwards, there are 10 examples of bias and erroneous thinking.

His main theme was that the Bible is an enemy to facsism which I wholeheartedly agree.

I'd like to understand what you mean here. How do you define fascism, and how is the the bible its enemy? Genuinely curious....

[Darren10]

Volgadon;

 

Their study of the Bible, I think, was indeed one of the main reasons why they went to the camps. The volkisch groups considered the Bible Students part of an international Judeo-Masono-Bolshevik movement aimed at perverting Christian churches by using the Bible as a tool. It could hardly have been lost on the NSDAP that the Jehovah Witnesses drew such notions as pacifism from their Bible study, and that their emphasis on it was a dangerous and attractive alternative to the traditional hierarchial, state-subordinate churches.

That's an excellent point. I agree that the religious beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses were *in part* responsible for the Nazis keeping an eye on them but that in an of itself did not send them off to the Concentration Camps as Beck suggested. Rather, it was from theuir not willing to take up arms for the state. Yes, that goes against the traditional state-run churches Germany was supposedly used to having (I really don't know the extent of that: were the Lutheran and Catholic churches subject to much state control) but not taking up arms for Germany was a *huge* no-no under the Nazi regime. Doing as much, as per my understanding of Hitler and the Third Reich, made such people to be considered useless.

Here's a joke my BYU professor made during our Germany Under Hitler class:

Teacher to first grade students: "OK, children, today we're going to be visited by Adolf Hitler. He may call upon one of you to answer some questions. There will be two questions. First, who is your father? The answer is Der Füerer. The second question will be, who is your mother? The answer is Deutschland (Germany - Not that you don't know that this is for others to know )

[Hitler arrives and al the yound children line up to meet him]

Hitler: "You, young one. Come here."

[Child steps forward]

Hitler: "Who is your father"

Child: "Der Füerer"

Hitler: "VERY GOOD!!! And who is your mother?"

Child: "Deutschland"

Hitler: "VERY GOOD!!!"

[Excited Hitler makes an unexpected third question"

Hitler: "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

[stunned by the third question, the teacher waits anxiously]

Child: Immediately responds, "an orphan".

Edited May 26, 2014 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Porter Rockwell;

His main theme was that the Bible is an enemy to facsism which I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree 100%!!!

I'd like to understand what you mean here. How do you define fascism, and how is the the bible its enemy? Genuinely curious....

Fascism I definite in general as a sort of state-run capitalistic society. This is characterized frequently by specific businesses teaming up with government so that they are effectively one body. It is also accompanied by very strict government regulations to the point in dictating individual choices a person may make. This, I see as the exact opposite which our country was founded. The founding of the United States of America was based upon individual freedom and very limited government, in fact, as Glenn Beck put it and I agree, just above anarchy but still authoritative enough to be in control of society.

The way I see things, all of the world's modern-day Democracies originated in Christian countries. I do not find this a mere coincidence but as a manifestation that the bible leads people to true freedom and being lead there naturally leads people to seek political freedom. Later democracies were influenced by Christian nations. Japan, and India had Democracy forced upon them but latter chose for themselves to embrace it and continue with it.

[Scott Lloyd]

"Revenge?"

In whose infantile fantasy?

What's the matter, Flatlander Jim? Are you mad at Joseph for shooting at your kind of people?

You know, all those good Bible-worshippingreading Chrisjuns, whose hearts were as black as their faces, and whose murderous actions you so wholeheartedly approve?

Regards,

Pahoran

You are out of the thread.

A pity.

The post was quite deserving of the response it got.

For more thoughts on that particularly unsavory anti-Mormon attitude see the blog post by Daniel Peterson here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2014/05/when-joseph-smith-opened-fire-on-those-militiamen-in-illinois.html

Edited May 26, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[frank_jessop]

A pity.

The post was quite deserving of the response it got.

For more thoughts on that particularly unsavory anti-Mormon attitude see the blog post by Daniel Peterson here:

Martyrdom is all in the eye of the beholder. Other websites chuck full of "martyrdom" videos wherein the martyr is committing suicide while killing many other people. And while the emotions of the natural man, certainly justify Joseph Smith firing a weapon; it is understandable, that others would question the act.

In my opinion none here, including yourself, are objective observers who are not acting as "Monday night quarterbacks" on the past events.

 

Do not compare Mormon leaders to mass murderers under any circumstance. You are out of the thread.

[Anijen]

A pity.

The post was quite deserving of the response it got.

For more thoughts on that particularly unsavory anti-Mormon attitude see the blog post by Daniel Peterson here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2014/05/when-joseph-smith-opened-fire-on-those-militiamen-in-illinois.html

Pahoran is one of my favorite posters here, and of all time. I agree a pity he was banned from the thread.

[sheilauk]

Some acts may well be disputed as martyrdom generally extremists. If Joseph Smith had gone guns blazing into a crowd f unarmed women and children out shopping or at a picnic (for example) your comparison and the critics comments would be valid. But Joseph was in fact attacked by armed men while he was in a room with little chance of escape and presumably believed to be unarmed and he fired back. Its more like a lynching than a suicide assault. I may not be objective but no it's not understandable.

[Scott Lloyd]

Some acts may well be disputed as martyrdom generally extremists. If Joseph Smith had gone guns blazing into a crowd f unarmed women and children out shopping or at a picnic (for example) your comparison and the critics comments would be valid. But Joseph was in fact attacked by armed men while he was in a room with little chance of escape and presumably believed to be unarmed and he fired back. Its more like a lynching than a suicide assault. I may not be objective but no it's not understandable.

In fact, said comparison and critics' comments display a warped sense of justice and are beyond contemptible.