Galatians For You

[Akboy]

I took a few days off to regroup, but I'm back.

Perhaps in your view God graciously empowers the individual to the faith which leads to salvation and also to good works, while in my (and if you read good Greek, Paul's) perspective God graciously empowers individuals to the faith and good works, which lead to salvation. With God, nothing is impossible. No charitable act, or good deed is unreachable. When something good is accomplished, we do not boast of ourselves, we boast of God who empowers us through his sacrifice. Christ's death not only saved us from sin, but gives divine strength and power to accomplish much good.

What about Mormons who go to church for years, but then decide they would rather ignore the church's teachings so they can live however they want? Did God not empower them as much as faithful Mormons? Or what about non-Mormons who live most of their lives sincerely trying to follow God and even end up enduring to the end? Did God not empower them to follow the gospel principles needed to get eternal life?

 

You can reword it and shift terms around all you want, but that won't change the crux of the issue. If you getting eternal life is dependent on you using God's empowering force, if you're relying on your own efforts, then you're not completely relying on Christ.

 

 

The other modern notion I'd encourage you to toss out the window, is your conception of faith. I'm not saying to rid yourself of faith or love of Jesus, just your modern conception of the word faith. As I stated in an earlier post, our modern translations of the Bible render the Greek version of this word horribly. "Pistis" should be rendered as "faithfulness," "loyalty," "love," "devotion," "obedience based on trust." In fact, when the English translators such as Tynsdale or the KJV writers translated Pistis as faith or belief, it still carried those connotations in English. Faith in the 16th and 17th centuries was understood as synonymous with "fidelity" or "faithfulness." Belief was not too far removed in meaning from its cousin "Belove," both stemming from the word "Belieben" which carried connotations of love, loyalty and devotion.

I've heard many Mormons strongly insist they're not trying to earn their salvation. They make it clear you don't believe in works-based salvation. Nothing in this life can pay the penalty for our sins. I think we agree on that issue, at least in general terms. Would you also agree that a belief system that teaches the opposite, that people can earn at least part of their salvation, is rejecting Christ and the atonement (Gal. 5:2, Rom. 4:4)? It certainly sounds like that's the kind of faith Paul is talking about in Gal. 2:16.

 

¹⁶ yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

 

To be clear, are you saying faith and good works lead to justification? Are there any Bible verses that suggest faith and works lead to justification/payment for sins?

 

So if you believe justification faith is completely Christ dependent and not on works at all, shouldn't you continue in that faith? That's the context of faith we should read into 3:2-3.

 

² Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? ³ Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

No, I'm not ignoring the definition of "Pistis." According to the context of how Paul uses the term, having faith in Christ means you're trusting Christ as your source of righteousness, both for justification to start out with and as you continue in your faith. That is loyalty and devotion. But if you're also depending on your own works for eternal life, then that's not complete loyalty and devotion to Christ.

 

As a side note, do you see any inconsistency in relying on the Greek for insight when the official LDS translation, the KJV, uses more modern and inferior manuscripts when compared with the ESV, NASB, etc., and the BoM has no source for the original language?

Edited April 30, 2014 by Akboy

[Vance]

Yah, yah, yah,

AND JESUS TAUGHT,

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I will take the clear and plain teachings of Jesus over your misinterpretation of Paul any day.

Just sayin!

[Vance]

16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law (OF MOSES) but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law (OF MOSES), because by works of the law (OF MOSES) no one will be justified.

To have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST you must FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS!

Like these,

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

• • •

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

• • •

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

• • •

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:

• • •

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

• • •

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[Vance]

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law (OF MOSES) or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The Spirit is received by obedience to God.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM GOD HATH GIVEN TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

Edited to add,

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 IF ANY MAN WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE, WHETHER IT BE OF GOD, OR WHETHER I SPEAK OF MYSELF.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

Even Paul taught that righteousness comes by obedience.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

You can reword it and shift terms around all you want, but that won't change the crux of the issue. If you getting eternal life is dependent on you using God's empowering force, if you're relying on your own efforts, then you're not completely relying on Christ.

So you want us all to believe that we just need to believe (what ever that means) in Jesus and we are saved. I am not seeing the issues you keep raising. I am seeing that in the bible we are taught that we need faith and works and that allows grace to work in our lives. You guys just want to say that as long as I believe or "trust in Jesus completely" (That phrase is not even found in the bible) I am saved. But even the act of trusting is doing something on your own. It is still a work. You just wont acknowledge it as a work because it goes against your non biblical doctrine.

[pogi]

 But even the act of trusting is doing something on your own. It is still a work. You just wont acknowledge it as a work because it goes against your non biblical doctrine.

 

Exactly!  He will probably answer, that even trusting in Christ is a grace of God.  Well that just means that salvation would be entirely based on predestination, where God chooses if you will believe, have faith, or perform works, while others he predestines to be sinners and faithless.  If we don't elicit the grace of God somehow, then we really have no agency in the matter, making God a respecter of persons and a dictator of salvation and damnation based on who knows what!

Edited April 30, 2014 by pogi

[teddyaware]

I took a few days off to regroup, but I'm back.

What about Mormons who go to church for years, but then decide they would rather ignore the church's teachings so they can live however they want? Did God not empower them as much as faithful Mormons? Or what about non-Mormons who live most of their lives sincerely trying to follow God and even end up enduring to the end? Did God not empower them to follow the gospel principles needed to get eternal life?

 

You can reword it and shift terms around all you want, but that won't change the crux of the issue. If you getting eternal life is dependent on you using God's empowering force, if you're relying on your own efforts, then you're not completely relying on Christ.

 

 

I've heard many Mormons strongly insist they're not trying to earn their salvation. They make it clear you don't believe in works-based salvation. Nothing in this life can pay the penalty for our sins. I think we agree on that issue, at least in general terms. Would you also agree that a belief system that teaches the opposite, that people can earn at least part of their salvation, is rejecting Christ and the atonement (Gal. 5:2, Rom. 4:4)? It certainly sounds like that's the kind of faith Paul is talking about in Gal. 2:16.

 

¹⁶ yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

 

To be clear, are you saying faith and good works lead to justification? Are there any Bible verses that suggest faith and works lead to justification/payment for sins?

 

So if you believe justification faith is completely Christ dependent and not on works at all, shouldn't you continue in that faith? That's the context of faith we should read into 3:2-3.

 

² Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? ³ Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

No, I'm not ignoring the definition of "Pistis." According to the context of how Paul uses the term, having faith in Christ means you're trusting Christ as your source of righteousness, both for justification to start out with and as you continue in your faith. That is loyalty and devotion. But if you're also depending on your own works for eternal life, then that's not complete loyalty and devotion to Christ.

 

As a side note, do you see any inconsistency in relying on the Greek for insight when the official LDS translation, the KJV, uses more modern and inferior manuscripts when compared with the ESV, NASB, etc., and the BoM has no source for the original language?

If you will carefully read the following post, it may help to end your frustration.

 

There is a definite place in the soteriology of the LDS Church for your understanding of the Pauline teachings on salvation in Galatians and elsewhere in Paul's epistles. The Latter-day Saints do believe it's possible for individuals to possess and exercise such great faith in Christ that they are translated from a state of abject spiritual death to a fullness of salvation in an instant. Among some of the notable individuals who possessed faith great enough to be instantaneously transformed into a state of holiness are the Apostle Paul, Alma the Younger, the sons of Mosiah, king Lamoni and his wife and others. But it must be understood that this kind of instantaneous spiritual transformation is contingent on faith in Christ great enough to produce mighty miracles. The following passages from the Book of Mormon contain the words of the aforementioned Alma as he describes his miraculous conversion from a state of wickedness to a blessed state of spiritual empowerment and unwavering righteousness through reliance on the atoning power of Jesus Christ:

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am bin the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.

24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. (Alma 36)

 

In addition, you must also understand that the Latter-day Saints believe this kind of conversion experience, because it is authentic, is not one of mere lip service; but the individuals so powerfully and rapidly transformed in this manner are righteous and faithful in all things because their great faith in Christ really does transform them from dispositions of wickedness to dispositions of genuine righteousness and holiness. Like the Nephites who were converted by the powerful preaching of King Benjamin, the individuals instantaneously transformed in this way are able to say:

2 ... Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. (Mosiah 5)

 

Rather than seeing full conversion through faith in Christ as an opportunity to avoid having to conscientiously live the laws of God, the Latter-day Saints understand those who are truly converted actually establish God's law and His righteousness because the Spirit of God inspires and empowers them to live by every word that proceeds forth out His mouth...

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3)

So living faith in Christ does not absolve us of the responsibility to live the law of God. Rather, faith facilitates the living of God's law by the outpouring of the power and gifts of God through the Spirit. The Book of Mormon expresses this principle thusly:

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

 

The principle on which we will likely part company is that we Latter-day Saints believe most people do not possess the degree of faith necessary to experience the sort of instantaneous transformation described above (even though we are the only ones who hold ourselves back from such a rapid transformation because of lack of faith). So the Lord mercifully makes an allowance for those who do not possess such mighty transformative faith by allowing them to participate in a process of more gradual spiritual transformation. LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie puts it this way:

“A person may get converted in a moment, miraculously. But that is not the way it happens with most people. With most people, conversion is a process; and it goes step by step, degree by degree, level by level, from a lower state to a higher, from grace to grace, until the time that the individual is wholly turned to the cause of righteousness." (Bruce R. McConkie)

The Apostle Peter describes this process of spiritual growth for those who are not instantaneously transformed as follows:

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3)

 

It's very interesting that in the midst of the above apostolic call for all Christians to continue to be diligent in doing the will of God, that they might be found innocent and blameless, Peter warns the saints of his day that Paul's writings are being misunderstood by some, causing those so deceived to fall from their own steadfastness in keeping the commandments. Peter also says that Paul's doctrine and his doctrine is the same, which doctrine is a call to continue to grow in grace. But some unlearned and unstable Christians of that day apparently twisted the meaning of Paul's words (just as some do in our day) in an attempt to escape the responsibility and necessity for continuous spiritual growth.

 

But the reason why Paul was (and is) being misunderstood is because he was teaching the saints that if they can only muster enough faith in Christ they can instantaneously be transformed into a state vibrant righteousness and holiness without a lifetime of muss and fuss. But the problem is that most people lack the degree of mighty transformative faith needed to make that instantaneous change happen; so for them God's mercy and longsuffering makes an allowance for conversion to be a process rather than an event.   

 

Bottom line? Those who are truly converted will live lives of proactive righteous and avoid all unrighteousness as if that unrighteousness were the most deadly of poisons, for it is. In the soteriology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, real conversion will bring forth the wholesome fruit of righteousness. Mere lip service to conversion while continuing in sin doesn't cut it and is prima facie evidence that there is no real conversion. Praise be to God for His long suffering which enables those who do not possess the mighty faith to be instantaneously transformed to ultimately be fully converted as well through a divinely ordained process of more gradual conversion.

Edited May 1, 2014 by teddyaware

[halconero]

As a side note, do you see any inconsistency in relying on the Greek for insight when the official LDS translation, the KJV, uses more modern and inferior manuscripts when compared with the ESV, NASB, etc., and the BoM has no source for the original language?

 

I've been busy the past couple of days with final exams, seeing off the girlfriend, moving, and packing up to go back to British Columbia, so my apologies for the late response. I'm actually working on an essay on 1 Thessalonians for the board, and between that and travel I won't be able to fully respond until Saturday. Regardless, I wanted to address this point.

 

While the main focus of my degree is Medical Anthropology, I'm also a student of Early Christian Writings. Early Christian Writings studies both Biblical and non-Biblical (Gospel of Thomas, The Letters of Paul and Thecla, etc) writings from the first three centuries following Christ's crucifixion. A thorough study of Early Christian Writings necessitates literacy and fluency in ancient Greek. Were I to use the KJV as the basis of my academic writing and research I would not only fail the course, but ignoring the rich contextual, linguistic, and religious history of Pauline and non-Pauline biblical writings.

 

The English translation I use for academic study is the Oxford Annotated Bible.

[Anakin7]

    halconero I hope and pray that you and the one's you love are  blessed. Just a brief observation, I noticed that you use the Oxford Annotated Bible. I do not have one but a search I did revealed that though it has received some positive reviews it also has come under heavy criticism for it's pro - gay- homosexual  wordage of scripture along  with its interpretation and allowance of sinful behavior being against GOD' within its translation of scripture. Have you come across this in your studies ?.Thank you for your brief time.

 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT