So, The Missionaries Just Came By!

[Storm Rider]

You may already know but as soon as a child hits 9 they are treated as a potential convert even if parents are active members and the child is active at church. Therefore missionaries are required to give the discussions to them before baptism.

Not saying it is right what happened as the family situation should be known before attempted contact with any children and whether or not the parents want the child taught, but it may not have been the missionaries just trolling for people to teach.

 

I have been a ward mission leader twice, an elders quorum president and a high priest group leader and I have never heard that missionaries target all youth over 8 years of age to prepare for baptism. Yes, missionaries do meet with children over the age of 9 who desire to be baptized and who have not had the opportunity to learn the gospel, but that is done with the parents approval.

[saemo]

I have been a ward mission leader twice, an elders quorum president and a high priest group leader and I have never heard that missionaries target all youth over 8 years of age to prepare for baptism. Yes, missionaries do meet with children over the age of 9 who desire to be baptized and who have not had the opportunity to learn the gospel, but that is done with the parents approval.

I highly suspected, and still do, a Mormon family member put a bee in someone's bonnet. In the same way the Mormon membership records follow us wherever I move. That's the thing with Mormon family members....their sneaks! Still don't know who it is, on both counts.

Edited April 22, 2014 by saemo

[Storm Rider]

I've had LDS members tell me missionaries do not target minors. Why do some members think this?

We never in our lives expressed an interest to have her baptized. Proselytizing minors is really, very inappropriate. I'm sure if I went around our neighborhood, when I was an atheist, asking for the neighbors children so I could speak to them about the nonexistence of God, someone would call the police.

It is not acceptable, in any way, for any "reason", for Mormon missionaries to target minors.

 

Please read the clarification I gave. Missionaries do not, nor have they ever, as a matter of policy, target children.  Your self-righteous indignation can be put away.  If a child has passed the age of eight i.e. nine and above, and desires to be baptized and the parents support their decision, then the missionaries are directed to teach teach them the gospel.  Their baptism would be considered a convert baptism rather than a child baptism.  What this means is that instead of the ward handling the reporting/record keeping of the baptism the records are handled by the mission office.  

 

The reason members say this is because it is the truth.  I am sure you need more information to begin to have any confidence in what I have said; I suggest you call the local mission office, ask for the mission president, and ask him questions until satisfied.  

[saemo]

Please read the clarification I gave. Missionaries do not, nor have they ever, as a matter of policy, target children.  Your self-righteous indignation can be put away.  If a child has passed the age of eight i.e. nine and above, and desires to be baptized and the parents support their decision, then the missionaries are directed to teach teach them the gospel.  Their baptism would be considered a convert baptism rather than a child baptism.  What this means is that instead of the ward handling the reporting/record keeping of the baptism the records are handled by the mission office.  

 

The reason members say this is because it is the truth.  I am sure you need more information to begin to have any confidence in what I have said; I suggest you call the local mission office, ask for the mission president, and ask him questions until satisfied.

All I know, are two male missionaries showed up at my door, asking for my ten year old by name. I didn't call them. My husband didn't call them. So protest all you like that it doesn't happen because you think it doesn't happen.

And whatever about being righteous. It is NOT being self righteous to expect that as a parent, strangers will leave your children alone.

[Calm]

I've had LDS members tell me missionaries do not target minors. Why do some members think this?

We never in our lives expressed an interest to have her baptized. Proselytizing minors is really, very inappropriate. I'm sure if I went around our neighborhood, when I was an atheist, asking for the neighbors children so I could speak to them about the nonexistence of God, someone would call the police.

It is not acceptable, in any way, for any "reason", for Mormon missionaries to target minors.

missionaries arent supposed to target children. If it happens it is against directives, but then not all members are willing to follow the rules.

It is possible the missionaries didn't "target" your child but were instead simply given a list of children of members who were past the age of eight and directed to check on their status. In many such cases parents want their child taught even if they arent active. The missionaries may have been clumsy in doing so or they may have misunderstood what was asked to be done.

I would agree with Storm Rider that any parent concerned should check with the mission president so hopefully the missionaries will get better training.

[Storm Rider]

All I know, are two male missionaries showed up at my door, asking for my ten year old by name. I didn't call them. My husband didn't call them. So protest all you like that it doesn't happen because you think it doesn't happen.

And whatever about being righteous. It is NOT being self righteous to expect that as a parent, strangers will leave your children alone.

 

Saemo, I did not say it does not happen, what I said is that there is not policy to "target" children.  I cannot vouch for a family member motivating such a request; I tend to agree with Cal that it is probably one of those obnoxious lists that get created by a well-meaning, over zealous, mission leader of potential converts.  If I was responsible for this individual I would verbally flog them, but alas I am not.  It is inconsiderate and irresponsible.  The process should have been to call the parents of each child on the list to request if they desire their child to be taught.  That would have avoided any potential conflict.  

 

I know it is annoying, but you could also call or write the bishop, tell them that your family are members of the Catholic Church and no longer wish to be contacted by anyone in the Church again.  If you wish to have your name removed from the records, ask for that to be done. If you are ambivalent, then say so.  The point you are trying to achieve is to have your family name put on the "no contact" list.  Further, you should state that "no contact" means that you do not want visitors or any form of communication.  They may respond that it is responsibility to send out a letter occasionally.  Should letters be sent I suspect they will be in an official envelope that you can easily handle.  If any other communication should arrive, bless that person for trying to go the extra mile and move on.  

[Kenngo1969]

OK, I understand a little better now.  I haven't scoured the thread for this detail, so forgive me if you mentioned it: is your husband/your daughter's father a member?

[Garden Girl]

I highly suspected, and still do, a Mormon family member put a bee in someone's bonnet. In the same way the Mormon membership records follow us wherever I move. That's the thing with Mormon family members....their sneaks! Still don't know who it is, on both counts.

 

Hello saemo... I know what you mean... my mom used to forward my records, but I didn't mind and I never wanted my name removed from Church rolls. 

 

 

The process should have been to call the parents of each child on the list to request if they desire their child to be taught.  That would have avoided any potential conflict.  

 

The point you are trying to achieve is to have your family name put on the "no contact" list.  Further, you should state that "no contact" means that you do not want visitors or any form of communication.  They may respond that it is responsibility to send out a letter occasionally.  Should letters be sent I suspect they will be in an official envelope that you can easily handle.  If any other communication should arrive, bless that person for trying to go the extra mile and move on.  

 

saemo, you really should contact the ward bishop and ask your name/family to be removed and to be put on the "no contact" list until such time you can officially be removed.  Until you remove your name, you will always have someone call at least annually to see if you still desire no contact.  It may surprise you how many people have reactivated after many years... I'm a perfect example...  I was inactive and did not want to attend... so when I'd get the "call" I'd simply tell them I wanted to remain a "no contact."  But through the years I continued to pray, read my scriptures, all with an LDS perspective... and I'd receive promptings from time to time to return to Church... and finally I did just that, and have been TBM since 1995...  but this is not the case for you... therefore, it would better to simply remove your name...

 

GG

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A different visit than usual, in that, usually the missionaries irritate the heck out of me just for showing up at my door! But I think hanging out here with y'all has helped me have more patience. So thanks!

Well hot dog. That is great. I know when the JW's come by I take the time to talk to them a bit and how I admire what they do as I did it as a missionary . I even invite them in for a drink as I always appreciated when people offered that to me.

[seriously honestly]

I haven't had them randomly stop by my place in a while, but they have come by my mom's place while I'm there .  I like when they stop by; gives me a chance to razz them (in a good natured way. I'm never mean to them).

[saemo]

missionaries arent supposed to target children. If it happens it is against directives, but then not all members are willing to follow the rules.

It is possible the missionaries didn't "target" your child but were instead simply given a list of children of members who were past the age of eight and directed to check on their status. In many such cases parents want their child taught even if they arent active. The missionaries may have been clumsy in doing so or they may have misunderstood what was asked to be done.

I would agree with Storm Rider that any parent concerned should check with the mission president so hopefully the missionaries will get better training.

So I've been told, that LDS missionaries don't target minors.

I don't contact local LDS.

[saemo]

OK, I understand a little better now.  I haven't scoured the thread for this detail, so forgive me if you mentioned it: is your husband/your daughter's father a member?

Husband is atheist. I said to him once, that he was raised LDS, he denied that. Says he was baptized LDS and made to go to church against his will until as a teenager he refused to go any longer. I believe he was ordained a teacher, because his mother wanted him to, but he had no interest. Mormons never come around asking for him. Just me or my daughter.

Daughter was blessed as an infant, by a family member, who said to me when it was time for her to be baptized her father should do it. I knew that was never going to happen. When she was 9 years old my LDS family asked when she was going to be baptized, I said that was up to her when she was old enough to decide for herself. We raised her without any religion, but taught her to respect the religious choices that others have made.

All this reminds me of an instance where a family member was babysitting her, and they decided that would be an opportune time to "Mormonize" her. When we were driving home after I picked her up, she asked me, what's the gospel. LOL. So much for trying to be a sneaky Mormon relative! I told her it was the religious belief of the person who was babysitting her, where she asked, what's religious belief. I said, what people believe about God is called religion.

She is an adult, and knows none of the Bible stories that I knew growing up. We made sure, as atheists, she was shielded from religion.

I converted to Catholicism when she was nearly an adult. She supports me, attended my baptism, but is quite puzzled as to why anyone would believe in God.

[saemo]

I haven't had them randomly stop by my place in a while, but they have come by my mom's place while I'm there .  I like when they stop by; gives me a chance to razz them (in a good natured way. I'm never mean to them).

I try to be polite, but can lose patience.

[saemo]

Hello saemo... I know what you mean... my mom used to forward my records, but I didn't mind and I never wanted my name removed from Church rolls.

saemo, you really should contact the ward bishop and ask your name/family to be removed and to be put on the "no contact" list until such time you can officially be removed. Until you remove your name, you will always have someone call at least annually to see if you still desire no contact. It may surprise you how many people have reactivated after many years... I'm a perfect example... I was inactive and did not want to attend... so when I'd get the "call" I'd simply tell them I wanted to remain a "no contact." But through the years I continued to pray, read my scriptures, all with an LDS perspective... and I'd receive promptings from time to time to return to Church... and finally I did just that, and have been TBM since 1995... but this is not the case for you... therefore, it would better to simply remove your name...

GG

Thanks. I've considered resigning, but I run into two things that stop me. One, the idea of contacting a Mormon bishop gets me going in a kind of anxiety that I can't explain. The same anxiety I get in a Mormon church to run, get out! It just isn't going to happen. And two, it may sound irrational, but I have a care for my parents. That I am no longer Mormon is hard for them, and I feel like removing my name would be like a punch in the gut to them. So I don't out of respect. There may come a day, and the opportune moment, where I will remove my name. It hasn't come yet.

I guess I think nearly 30 years of being "inactive", would be a clear signal to whomever. I don't get why it isn't, and my impatience with missionaries comes from taking it out on them. I don't know how many times I can say, not interested. It seems to me missionaries, and by extension all LDS, have no listening skills.

Edited April 24, 2014 by saemo

[Garden Girl]

Thanks. I've considered resigning, but I run into two things that stop me. One, the idea of contacting a Mormon bishop gets me going in a kind of anxiety that I can't explain. The same anxiety I get in a Mormon church to run, get out! It just isn't going to happen. And two, it may sound irrational, but I have a care for my parents. That I am no longer Mormon is hard for them, and I feel like removing my name would be like a punch in the gut to them. So I don't out of respect. There may come a day, and the opportune moment, where I will remove my name. It hasn't come yet.

I guess I think nearly 30 years of being "inactive", would be a clear signal to whomever. I don't get why it isn't, and my impatience with missionaries comes from taking it out on them. I don't know how many times I can say, not interested. It seems to me missionaries, and by extension all LDS, have no listening skills.

 

saemo lady...

The missionaries have a big notebook with all the member names, including inactives... and until you remove your name from Church rolls it will remain in their book.  Every few months the missionaries change and new ones get "the book."  So they look and say... well now, let's contact saemo and see how she is doing... the next time they are contact you, you can ask them to make a  notation on their list that they are not to contact you... they may start to tell you about having your name removed... you can nicely say that's fine, but to make a notation anyway in regard to the missionaries not contacting you.  Other than that, I don't know what to tell you... the ball is in your court so to speak. 

I do understand what you mean about hurting your folks... my sis is inactive and has been for years (just like I used to be for 30+ years).  Not long ago she said she was thinking of removing her name and I told her don't you dare... the Church doesn't know where she is so just leave it alone... we are sealed to our folks... every now and then I get a call asking about her and I tell them in no uncertain terms just to leave her alone or they will ruin the good rapport that we have (she watches gen conference, loves some of the apostles, watches BYU-TV particularly Mo Tab, reads anything I send her from Church News, etc etc).  She just doesn't want to be contacted... so I do that for her.  She does believe about half of the doctrine, and then has her own views... it works well for her, and for me as we do share wonderful conversations...

Anyway... all good wishes... GG

[seriously honestly]

After I posted, I went home and guess who showed up? Sister missionaries  

[Garden Girl]

After I posted, I went home and guess who showed up? Sister missionaries

Ha!  That'll teach you...

 

GG

[seriously honestly]

Ha!  That'll teach you...

 

GG

I though it was pretty funny; they came by while I was out chopping firewood, so they stayed and helped. 

[saemo]

After I posted, I went home and guess who showed up? Sister missionaries

Too funny!

[saemo]

Hello saemo... I know what you mean... my mom used to forward my records, but I didn't mind and I never wanted my name removed from Church rolls.

saemo, you really should contact the ward bishop and ask your name/family to be removed and to be put on the "no contact" list until such time you can officially be removed. Until you remove your name, you will always have someone call at least annually to see if you still desire no contact. It may surprise you how many people have reactivated after many years... I'm a perfect example... I was inactive and did not want to attend... so when I'd get the "call" I'd simply tell them I wanted to remain a "no contact." But through the years I continued to pray, read my scriptures, all with an LDS perspective... and I'd receive promptings from time to time to return to Church... and finally I did just that, and have been TBM since 1995... but this is not the case for you... therefore, it would better to simply remove your name...

GG

I have told the various missionaries who have come around over the years that I am not interested, and never will be. One pair, that is what I said to every canned question. Just kept repeating, I'm not interested. Like talking to a couple of rocks, that pair. I'll ask them to write that in their big book of names: not interested and never will be. Edited April 25, 2014 by saemo

[Spammer]

The elders came by a few weeks ago.  I was out front raking leaves.  They nicely offered to help, "thanks, but no".  Then they asked if there was anything they could do for me.  "No, I'm good."  They kept standing there looking at me and asked "are you sure you don't need any help?"  It was obvious they wanted to probe. My guess is they had heard about the former Mormon with a Mormon family who is now an Orthodox Christian.  They didn't reveal their innermost thoughts but the senior companion did say "we were in the area and felt impressed to stop by and see you".  Internally, I rolled my eyes.  I hope I didn't really roll my eyes.  I remember being that young, naive, and earnest on my own mission.  I just smiled and said "look guys, I'm fine and I'm really not interested in the church anymore.  Really, things are good.  Thanks for stopping by."   The senior companion looked a bit confused, his companion said nothing the entire time, then they smiled, reiterated their offer to help if there's ever a need and left.   Whew.  They just wouldn't take the hint.  I went back to work.  Five minutes later they were back!  The senior companion wanted to bear his testimony. Sigh.  Poor guy.  He got as far as "I'd like to tell you that..."  when I stopped him and told them that I'm immune to testimony bearing, so please don't bother.  Silence and furrowed brows.  Then, "well, can we ask you a few questions?"  Sigh again.  Ok.  They wouldn't take the hint.  They really, really wanted to try to figure me out, change me, whatever. So, I gave in.  We had a brief conversation where I touched on ontology, epistemology, the Septuagint, patristics, ancient evidences and physics.  They didn't say much, just looked kind of lost with a deer-in-the-headlights look.  One more testimony attempt (which I let the sr. companion finish) and that was it.  Poor guys.  I was a bit agitated by the whole thing.  I forgot to invite them in for a glass of water.  I really need to remember my manners the next time the missionaries come by.

 

That reminds me of another set of missionaries who came by when I was in grad school.  That was back in my secret atheist days.  We fed them dinner and we talked about the usual things.  They talked about their backgrounds, people they were teaching, places in the mission they'd been, and then expressed frustration with an atheist they were currently teaching.  They didn't know how to reach him.  They knew I was a former missionary.  I gave them some advice on how best to approach an atheist, gave them some specific things to bring up, then made the huge mistake of admitting that I was kind of sympathetic to the atheist's views.  I was still attending church actively then.  Oh boy.  That's when the conversation really got interesting.  We inevitably got into things I was having trouble with, so I got into epistemology and "how do we really know what we think we know" and certain doctrinal and historical problems that seemed intractable.   Apparently, that experience really bothered one of the missionaries.  About 3-4 months later I got a rambling, handwritten (!), ten-page (!!) screed in the mail calling me to repentance, telling me all the ways in which I was oh so wrong in my views and that he had enrolled in BYU and decided to major in philosophy just so he could refute people like me!  Wow.  I really wish I had kept that letter.  I wonder where that guy is today?

Edited April 25, 2014 by Spammer

[saemo]

The elders came by a few weeks ago.  I was out front raking leaves.  They nicely offered to help, "thanks, but no".  Then they asked if there was anything they could do for me.  "No, I'm good."  They kept standing there looking at me and asked "are you sure you don't need any help?"  It was obvious they wanted to probe. My guess is they had heard about the former Mormon with a Mormon family who is now an Orthodox Christian.  They didn't reveal their innermost thoughts but the senior companion did say "we were in the area and felt impressed to stop by and see you".  Internally, I rolled my eyes.  I hope I didn't really roll my eyes.  I remember being that young, naive, and earnest on my own mission.  I just smiled and said "look guys, I'm fine and I'm really not interested in the church anymore.  Really, things are good.  Thanks for stopping by."   The senior companion looked a bit confused, his companion said nothing the entire time, then they smiled, reiterated their offer to help if there's ever a need and left.   Whew.  They just wouldn't take the hint.  I went back to work.  Five minutes later they were back!  The senior companion wanted to bear his testimony. Sigh.  Poor guy.  He got as far as "I'd like to tell you that..."  when I stopped him and told them that I'm immune to testimony bearing, so please don't bother.  Silence and furrowed brows.  Then, "well, can we ask you a few questions?"  Sigh again.  Ok.  They wouldn't take the hint.  They really, really wanted to try to figure me out, change me, whatever. So, I gave in.  We had a brief conversation where I touched on ontology, epistemology, the Septuagint, patristics, ancient evidences and physics.  They didn't say much, just looked kind of lost with a deer-in-the-headlights look.  One more testimony attempt (which I let the sr. companion finish) and that was it.  Poor guys.  I was a bit agitated by the whole thing.  I forgot to invite them in for a glass of water.  I really need to remember my manners the next time the missionaries come by.

 

That reminds me of another set of missionaries who came by when I was in grad school.  That was back in my secret atheist days.  We fed them dinner and we talked about the usual things.  They talked about their backgrounds, people they were teaching, places in the mission they'd been, and then expressed frustration with an atheist they were currently teaching.  They didn't know how to reach him.  They knew I was a former missionary.  I gave them some advice on how best to approach an atheist, gave them some specific things to bring up, then made the huge mistake of admitting that I was kind of sympathetic to the atheist's views.  I was still attending church actively then.  Oh boy.  That's when the conversation really got interesting.  We inevitably got into things I was having trouble with, so I got into epistemology and "how do we really know what we think we know" and certain doctrinal and historical problems that seemed intractable.   Apparently, that experience really bothered one of the missionaries.  About 3-4 months later I got a rambling, handwritten (!), ten-page (!!) screed in the mail calling me to repentance, telling me all the ways in which I was oh so wrong in my views and that he had enrolled in BYU and decided to major in philosophy just so he could refute people like me!  Wow.  I really wish I had kept that letter.  I wonder where that guy is today?

Pot stirrer! I had a nephew who wrote me one letter, telling me he knows the church is true. I replied, asking, how do you know that, and are you really sure? I never received another letter from him again. I wasn't trying to scare him off. I thought if he is going to converse with me about religious belief, I'm going to converse back. Apparently missionaries are not schooled in conversation, but giving assertions, like testimony bearing...and expect there should be no challenge to their assertions.

Like talking to rocks.

[bluebell]

Pot stirrer! I had a nephew who wrote me one letter, telling me he knows the church is true. I replied, asking, how do you know that, and are you really sure? I never received another letter from him again. I wasn't trying to scare him off. I thought if he is going to converse with me about religious belief, I'm going to converse back. Apparently missionaries are not schooled in conversation, but giving assertions, like testimony bearing...and expect there should be no challenge to their assertions.

Like talking to rocks.

 

They are just young and idealistic like most kids their age who think they know everything.  They do dumb stuff sometimes (often) when they are confronted with a world view that doesn't agree with theirs.  It doesn't have anything to do with them being raised LDS.  

 

I recently went back to college (in Montana) to finish my degree and this kind of attitude is typical.  Try challenging any kid this age on something they truly believe they are right about and they don't often handle it very maturely.  I witnessed so many kids storming out of my religious, historical, and philosophical classes that it began to feel like a spectator sport.  

 

The best were when a Catholic, Evangelical, and atheist would get into it.  Those were some interesting moments!  

[Calm]

My brother, when we met him at the airport after the MTC sending him off to preach, earnestly told us how when he got back he was going to turn our extended family into spiritual giants with scripture study, family prayer, etc. (Mom would have loved to do it, but Dad was of the type rather reading about religion, go out and do it). My husband and I chuckled about it probably for the whole hour home though to him I just said "sounds wonderful".

By the time he got home he was a much wiser young man and was able to recognise spirituality outside of the typical behaviour.

I look on missionaries as cute little puppies that like to jump all over you and may nip you in excitement from time to time, mostly out of love and in total cluelessness as to the sharpness of their tiny teeth. I treat them much the same, make sure they are well fed and clean with a good bed to sleep in and frequent pats on the head and "good boy"s/"good girl"s

Edited April 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Spammer]

Pot stirrer! I had a nephew who wrote me one letter, telling me he knows the church is true. I replied, asking, how do you know that, and are you really sure? I never received another letter from him again. I wasn't trying to scare him off. I thought if he is going to converse with me about religious belief, I'm going to converse back. Apparently missionaries are not schooled in conversation, but giving assertions, like testimony bearing...and expect there should be no challenge to their assertions.

Like talking to rocks.

 

I was exactly the same on my mission.  One year out of high school, zero college, and because I had already read the Book of Mormon and most of the Bible all the way through I thought I was a spiritual giant who was an expert in ancient history and knew more than the Pope.  

 

By the way, I failed to mention that I was wearing this shirt when the missionaries came by a few months ago.  It probably explains the look on their faces when I heard them say 'hello' and stood up from the leaf pile.

 

The shirt has this quote from St. Isaac the Syrian (7th Century) on the back:

 

“The world” is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead…. Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.