Priesthood Authority And Righteousness

[3DOP]

If you get around to it, a link or two on that would be very helpful.  I am under the impression that the Orthodox view is quite similar to the Roman church, but I don't know.

 

And it would be interesting to see if these views are based on philosophical arguments or mystical experience.  I personally believe in the "real presence" experientially, at times I have experienced the sensation that Christ is "really present" but it is a mystical experience.  For me that makes it just as "real" as anything can be though.  I only know that you exist based on my experience as well.

 

But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

 

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.

 

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans, 6:2-7:1,  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

 

Of course he only mentions, the Body of Christ, the flesh. That is the major stumblingblock. It is not difficult to believe that if the body can be truly present, so will be the blood. It is not difficult to believe that if the body and blood which are ordinarily perishable could be present, the soul and divinity would follow. 

 

A most vivid example of a Church Father on the Real Physical Presence in the Eucharist is St. John Chrysostom, who was an Eastern Father, and whose liturgy is used in Eastern churches today:

 

Let the initiated follow what I say. In order then that we may become this not by love only, but in very deed, let us be blended into that flesh. This is effected by the food which He has freely given us, desiring to show the love which He has for us. On this account He has mixed up Himself with us; He has kneaded up His body with ours, that we might be a certain One Thing, like a body joined to a head. For this belongs to them who love strongly; this, for instance, Job implied, speaking of his servants, by whom he was beloved so exceedingly, that they desired to cleave unto his flesh. For they said, to show the strong love which they felt, Who would give us to be satisfied with his flesh?  Wherefore this also Christ has done, to lead us to a closer friendship, and to show His love for us; He has given to those who desire Him not only to see Him, but even to touch, and eat Him, and fix their teeth in His flesh, and to embrace Him, and satisfy all their love. Let us then return from that table like lions breathing fire, having become terrible to the devil; thinking on our Head, and on the love which He has shown for us.

 

St. John Chrysostom, Sermons of the Gospel of St. John, Sermon 46, ch. 3,  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240146.htm

[Storm Rider]

What I appreciate about Catholic tradition is the reverence expressed for the Eucharist.  I feel there is something that we can learn and emulate in our own tradition.  

 

When I read the scriptures I can understand why the Catholic Church has taken a literal understanding to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus; however, I reject such a literal response to the Savior. It is not surprise that the concept of remembrance plays a major role for me. I guess it is just easier to understand and does not require a rather complex teaching such as transubstantiation.  

 

St. John Chrysostom is one of my favorites; thank you for sharing.

[ERayR]

This topic came up in a somewhat unrelated thread so I though I'd start a new one.

 

At one point in unrighteousness does an LDS priesthood holder lose priesthood authority?  I ask because I've heard some people explain the apostasy in terms of righteousness -- priesthood authority was removed because of the unrighteousness of those holding it.  Since they lost the authority, they then could no longer pass this authority on.

 

Another question would be how does this affect LDS ordinances?  What if a priesthood leader was secretly having a long term affair.  Are those he baptized not really baptized?  What about those he ordains to the priesthood?  If they're not really ordained, then all of the ordinances they perform wouldn't really be ordinances either.  And if the secret persists long enough, this could really explode exponentially.

 

The Catholic Church very early on declared it a heresy to believe that a Sacrament (ordinance) was invalid because of the unrighteousness of the priest or bishop.

 

What's the LDS take on this?

 

Thanks!

 

When one makes unauthorized changes to doctrine and ordinances.

[MiserereNobis]

When one makes unauthorized changes to doctrine and ordinances.

 

That makes sense.  So, when it comes down to it (as I pointed out before), merely showing that there were changes doesn't prove the apostasy.  You would have to show that those changes were made without authorization.  Changes made with authorization are by definition not apostate.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks for the follow up!

But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.
 
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.
 
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans, 6:2-7:1,  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

Thanks for that. I believe that. The bread makes his sacrifice present to me right now, in real time as I partake of it. It "is" his flesh as He "is" the light of this world. When I partake, he is in me and I am in Him. We ARE ALL the body of Christ, his arms and hands, his feet, in the same way. We ARE his flesh.

But all this is a mystical "argument", and metaphor. But it is as "real" as language can be, because all language is metaphor. Even the word "flesh" is a metaphor for that part of me that bleeds and gets fat or thin, etc. Bread and wine/water is not the same as skin and blood, and I don't think he is saying that.
 

Of course he only mentions, the Body of Christ, the flesh. That is the major stumblingblock. It is not difficult to believe that if the body can be truly present, so will be the blood. It is not difficult to believe that if the body and blood which are ordinarily perishable could be present, the soul and divinity would follow. 

 

 Now that is the part I have trouble with and find it difficult to believe despite your assurance that it is not difficult.
 

A most vivid example of a Church Father on the Real Physical Presence in the Eucharist is St. John Chrysostom, who was an Eastern Father, and whose liturgy is used in Eastern churches today:
 
Let the initiated follow what I say. In order then that we may become this not by love only, but in very deed, let us be blended into that flesh. This is effected by the food which He has freely given us, desiring to show the love which He has for us. On this account He has mixed up Himself with us; He has kneaded up His body with ours, that we might be a certain One Thing, like a body joined to a head. For this belongs to them who love strongly; this, for instance, Job implied, speaking of his servants, by whom he was beloved so exceedingly, that they desired to cleave unto his flesh. For they said, to show the strong love which they felt, Who would give us to be satisfied with his flesh?  Wherefore this also Christ has done, to lead us to a closer friendship, and to show His love for us; He has given to those who desire Him not only to see Him, but even to touch, and eat Him, and fix their teeth in His flesh, and to embrace Him, and satisfy all their love. Let us then return from that table like lions breathing fire, having become terrible to the devil; thinking on our Head, and on the love which He has shown for us.
 
St. John Chrysostom, Sermons of the Gospel of St. John, Sermon 46, ch. 3,  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240146.htm

 

Thanks for that wonderful quote.

 

But as I see it, he is saying, infinitely better, what I said above about being "blended into that flesh".  I think that is the key phrase to what John intends to say here.  The bread as Christ's body, becomes part of our body and we become part of his mystical Body- we are blended as one being, together as husband and wife are one flesh.  He is the husband of the church and is one body with us, the faithful.  That is VERY scriptural and is even found in LDS scriptures.

 

But I would argue that that is not "transubstantiation" as understood by the Scholastics.  There is no attempt here to make an argument- it is a statement that "This is that"- that the bread IS the body.  That is metaphorical language.  Juliette is the sun.  Jesus is the light of the world.  Jesus is the gate.  Jesus is the way.  Jesus is the living water.  The bread is his body.  The wine/water is his blood.   There is no argument trying to "prove" that Jesus is somehow water, or that Jesus is the sun itself as the light of the world.  We know that is what is meant by the words.  Jesus is not a star at the center of our solar system- there is no argument attempting to show how he is.

 

In fact, the LDS idea of the light of the Sun being the light of Christ is in fact more bold and literal than even the Catholic conception of the light of the world.

 

All these are symbolic metaphors, the way I see it.  But please don't see this as an attack on your beliefs.  I have no problem with Catholics believing that the bread and wine is LITERALLY Christ's body blood soul and divinity.  I just don't believe that.

[mfbukowski]

That makes sense.  So, when it comes down to it (as I pointed out before), merely showing that there were changes doesn't prove the apostasy.  You would have to show that those changes were made without authorization.  Changes made with authorization are by definition not apostate.

I see it as a game of "telephone" where someone tells a story and then the story is passed around the circle and by the zillionth iteration it has changed substantially.

 

The real problem for me, obviously, is, dare I say it?  Neoplatonism!  But we won't go there. 

 

I agree that our position on the hypothetical LDS 16 year old Priest who is not worthy,  blessing the sacrament without consequences to the faithful definitely is not a great argument in favor of the loss of authority for the apostasy.  (but notice you stole that argument from me on the other thread- so obviously  I agree with me!    )

 

But for me, I think that by the 19th century, after Neoplatonism, after the Reformation, after the Counter Reformation, after the Crusades and the Inquisition, after the flaky Popes, and a couple of thousand years of playing telephone, a lot of the "original" message was lost.

 

Gone.  No mas.  Toodle loo. 

 

Then comes Joseph.  He saw that Christianity was a mess and by revelation, got back the original spirit if not every single exact detail, but for all Pragmatic, practical purposes, he restored the nucleus of the original gospel message.  God is literally the Father of our spirits.  He has a body like ours, but glorified.  We lived before we came here, and can "grow up" and become like our Father if we live righteously and do our very best.  Christ is the Son of God who suffered and died for our sins, by means we cannot fully understand.

 

Joseph put it all back into perspective and got it right.  THAT is what I believe.  So somewhere it got lost, and he brought it back.  Simple.

 

If you can believe all that and be Catholic, including the Joseph Smith part, then sign me up 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Here is a Catholic forum for former Mormons...

http://forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=482

* So they do exist *

[MiserereNobis]

If you can believe all that and be Catholic, including the Joseph Smith part, then sign me up 

 

There are quite a few "special interest" groups in Catholicism.  I think you should start this one:  Catholic Post-modern Rortyian Pragmatic Anti-neo-Platonists For Joseph Smith

 

Heck, you could probably get a liberal diocesan bishop somewhere to grant you pious union status and make you legit

[mfbukowski]

Here is a Catholic forum for former Mormons...

http://forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=482

* So they do exist *

Wow.

 

Looked at some of the comments.  Some are even wavering.   But they would probably kick me off before I got two posts in. 

 

There is someone wrong on the internet!  Is it possible?   

[mfbukowski]

There are quite a few "special interest" groups in Catholicism.  I think you should start this one:  Catholic Post-modern Rortyian Pragmatic Anti-neo-Platonists For Joseph Smith

 

Heck, you could probably get a liberal diocesan bishop somewhere to grant you pious union status and make you legit

LOL!

 

Hey- I already had a priest allow me to read scriptures during Mass because "it's all the same".

 

But seriously, I think a Christian post-modern movement that cuts across denominational boundaries is a real possibility.

 

Well time to cut out at least for a bit.  Keep in touch!

Edited April 16, 2014 by mfbukowski

[why me]

The catholic forum is a disgrace in how they treat other religions. If this forum would be as negative as that forum about other religions, this forum would be called unchristiain, unchristlike, and intolerant. It is amazing that they get away with what they get away with. It is a sad and intolerant board and they love to beat on the Mormons and their faith.

[3DOP]

LOL!

 

Hey- I already had a priest allow me to read scriptures during Mass because "it's all the same".

 

But seriously, I think a Christian post-modern movement that cuts across denominational boundaries is a real possibility.

 

Well time to cut out at least for a bit.  Keep in touch!

 

Thanks for sharing that bukowski. That is priceless. It illustrates what I was saying in the other thread about "Aunt Suzie". As a Mormon and former Catholic, you have done at a Catholic Mass what used to require four years of seminary formation. Those young men who just got ordained to the office of Lector have waited, studied, and prayed a long time for the authority to proclaim the Scriptures during Mass. They went on a silent retreat (no talking, interior reflection) for five days immediately preceding the ordinations which would give them the privilege. I guess somebody forgot to let the Rector of the Seminary know that "Its all the same." Sure, who needs a retreat? Who needs ordained? Who needs a seminary? It sounds like if you had pushed the envelope a little, you could have at least concelebrated the Mass. Does he understand about the Melchisedec priesthood? Maybe he'd let you go solo?

 

That is why minor orders have been suppressed, so that anybody at all can go tramping around the altar doing what had once been preserved for men in cassock and surplice who were pursuing the priesthood. Who needs a priest, look here is this well-educated Mormon? Good enuff. Its all the same!

 

This is why 30-40% of Mormon converts are former Catholics.  

Edited April 17, 2014 by 3DOP

[saemo]

That statistic is not surprising to me. Although I think you are forgetting saemo. She was LDS right? I can't think of any other LDS who have converted either.

Many of us in Utah. A few more will be baptized, confirmed and receive their first communion this coming Saturday.

ETA: Cora Evans

http://www.Parishretreat.org/index.php?id=story

Edited April 16, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

Thanks for sharing that bukowski. That is priceless. It illustrates what I was saying in the other thread about "Aunt Suzie". As a Mormon and former Catholic, you have done at a Catholic Mass what used to require four years of seminary formation. Those young men who just got ordained to the office of Lector have waited, studied, and prayed a long time for the authority to proclaim the Scriptures during Mass. They went on a silent retreat (no talking, interior reflection) for five days in preparation for the privilege. I guess somebody forgot to let the Rector of the Seminary know that "Its all the same." Sure, who needs seminary? It sounds like if you had pushed the envelope a little, you could have at least concelebrated the Mass. Does he understand about the Melchisedec priesthood? Maybe he'd let you go solo?

That is why minor orders have been suppressed, so that anybody at all can go tramping around the altar doing what had once been preserved for men who were pursuing the priesthood. Who needs a priest, look here is this well-educated Mormon? Good enuff. Its all the same!

This is why 30-40% of Mormon converts are former Catholics.

I have a suspicion there is a former Catholic here who receives communion, while also wearing temple garments.

I have not been to a Latin Mass, I was baptized in 2008. But, my parish is further away for the very reason I like its orthodoxy. The parishes closer to me are "modern". No Latin. No incense. Choirs singing songs that sound like campfire songs to my ears. Lol. Homilies given away from the lectern, down with the people. While pacing back and forth in front of the Altar. Ugh. Going back to the rear of the sanctuary, away from the altar, to receive communion. I haven't come across liturgical dancing yet, but I know there is a parish in our diocese who has "gone there".

A friend of mine (also a convert from Mormonism) says one Mass she went to she really meant it when the Mass ended and she said "Thanks be to God!"

Edited April 16, 2014 by saemo

[MiserereNobis]

I have a suspicion there is a former Catholic here who receives communion, while also wearing temple garments.

I have not been to a Latin Mass, I was baptized in 2008. But, my parish is further away for the very reason I like its orthodoxy. The parishes closer to me are "modern". No Latin. No incense. Choirs singing songs that sound like campfire songs to my ears. Lol. Homilies given away from the lectern, down with the people. While pacing back and forth in front of the Altar. Ugh. Going back to the rear of the sanctuary, away from the altar, to receive communion. I haven't come across liturgical dancing yet, but I know there is a parish in our diocese who has "gone there".

A friend of mine (also a convert from Mormonism) says one Mass she went to she really meant it when the Mass ended and she said "Thanks be to God!"

 

Based on what you have said, you would really appreciate a traditional Latin Mass.  But just make sure that your first TLM is a High Mass (or at least a Sung Mass), so that you can experience all of the Gregorian Chant, traditional hymns, incense, etc.

[3DOP]

I have a suspicion there is a former Catholic here who receives communion, while also wearing temple garments.

I have not been to a Latin Mass, I was baptized in 2008. But, my parish is further away for the very reason I like its orthodoxy. The parishes closer to me are "modern". No Latin. No incense. Choirs singing songs that sound like campfire songs to my ears. Lol. Homilies given away from the lectern, down with the people. While pacing back and forth in front of the Altar. Ugh. Going back to the rear of the sanctuary, away from the altar, to receive communion. I haven't come across liturgical dancing yet, but I know there is a parish in our diocese who has "gone there".

A friend of mine (also a convert from Mormonism) says one Mass she went to she really meant it when the Mass ended and she said "Thanks be to God!"

 

Hey saemo...People like you who care about orthodoxy and adherence to rubrics have had to be satisfied to be "commuter parishioners". I drove my family forty miles through at least a dozen parish boundaries to do the same thing. For many years, I was embarrassed to let my brothers (siblings) know that I didn't go to the local parish. That I had to drive so far to find something satisfactory implies that there is something not right in all of the churches that were closer. I think there must have been closer to thirty churches that were nearer to us. But I wanted my siblings to consider the Catholic faith and if they really knew why I drove so far, it seemed like it would be a stumblingblock.

 

Sometime before the end of 2004, some new priests came to the parish to which we had been driving. The new pastor put up a notice in the sacristy about how times change and we must change with them. Our youngest son read the notice and told us about it when he was a thirteen year old altar boy. One of the other new priests began to admonish him because he was too solemn while he served the Mass. He was told he needed to lighten up, to start smiling. Then he was instructed that he needed to stop genuflecting so much while crossing in front of the Tabernacle and to employ a barely discernible "head-bob" instead. Oh yeah, that's the problem with the Catholic Church...too many ultra solemn and immoderately reverent altar servers. Its ridiculous. Besides noting what kind of altar boys are considered to be the problem in the Church today, I began to wonder more about those priests who were suspended and whose bishops were said to be excommunicated in the Church then. It is either madness or the enemy is truly inside the gates. Maybe both.

 

At the same time, it was Fall of 2004, completely without any warning, we were alarmed (in the other direction) when our oldest son who was a student at Thomas Aquinas College, disclosed that he had started going an a hour and a half to a Mass of the Society of St. Pius X with a group of other students. My wife and I weren't quite ready for that, but neither were we ready for what was happening in our parish. Without these two surprises arriving like a one-two punch, we would not have looked in some desperation to the Society of St. Pius X, going to our first Mass on the Feast of the Circumcision, January 1, 2005. We studied the literature of course. They didn't need to tell us there was an emergency in the Church, that pastors were failing us, and souls were perishing. That altar boy I mentioned above appears to be on his way to priestly ordination in 2017. I think his vocation would have been lost if we hadn't taken him away from those priests and exposed him to the Catholic Faith as it had been universally before our own generation. One of the guys in my other son's carpool? He is a Society priest since 2012. Compared to the Novus Ordo, the SSPX is a vocations factory. Everybody I know wants their children to be priests and religious...if they are called.      

 

I don't judge any Catholic who is not convinced that the situation is so dire, that we need to disobey the pope and our local ordinaries. It took personal events to make my wife and I get serious about understanding why Abp. Marcel Lefebvre behaved as he did, and was suspended for it. As he said, he was doing what he had done for his entire life as a priest and bishop. What drew praise and advancement in the 40's and 50's, suddenly drew jeers and suspensions in the 60's and 70's. Things are gone crazy. Sister Lucia used an expression...she spoke of a diabolical disorientation that would afflict the Church. I don't usually go for conspiracy theories and I won't now except I know that he who hates us, whose head will be crushed under the foot of the Immaculata still has his servants, and wants to crucify Christ's Bride, as Christ was crucified. The world and the devil...and the flesh (everyone's unregulated passions, mine included) hate the Church and how she reminds us always to mortify our continual companion. My flesh doesn't like Lent and it is dreading Holy Thursday and Good Friday.

 

Don't think that Catholics like me look down on our brothers and sisters who are fighting the good fight as their lights lead them, otherwise than we do. God bless you and give you and yours a good finish to this Lenten journey and a beautiful and joyful Easter season, knowing that as it was God's will to allow His Son to suffer, so shall His Church. We are never forsaken and the Church will triumph.

 

Regards,

 

Rory

Edited April 17, 2014 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

Thanks for sharing that bukowski. That is priceless. It illustrates what I was saying in the other thread about "Aunt Suzie". As a Mormon and former Catholic, you have done at a Catholic Mass what used to require four years of seminary formation. Those young men who just got ordained to the office of Lector have waited, studied, and prayed a long time for the authority to proclaim the Scriptures during Mass. They went on a silent retreat (no talking, interior reflection) for five days in preparation for the privilege. I guess somebody forgot to let the Rector of the Seminary know that "Its all the same." Sure, who needs seminary? It sounds like if you had pushed the envelope a little, you could have at least concelebrated the Mass. Does he understand about the Melchisedec priesthood? Maybe he'd let you go solo?

 

That is why minor orders have been suppressed, so that anybody at all can go tramping around the altar doing what had once been preserved for men who were pursuing the priesthood. Who needs a priest, look here is this well-educated Mormon? Good enuff. Its all the same!

 

This is why 30-40% of Mormon converts are former Catholics.  

 

I assume (but I don't know for sure) that Mark's experience at a funeral Mass was in Los Angeles and happened most likely when Cardinal Mahoney was the Bishop there.  +Mahoney is not really known for his adherence to Catholic tradition (understatement!!) so I'm not really surprised.  Just check out any youtube videos of the Masses at the religious education conferences in LA... yikes!

[MiserereNobis]

Hey saemo...

 

I'm just going to say that I'm still rather dumbfounded to find an SSPX traditional Catholic on MD&D.  God moves in mysterious ways, indeed!

 

Thank you, Rory, for sharing your story.  And thank you, LDS friends, for indulging us Catholics in having a side conversation about the problems that we see in our Church right now.  Your patience and understanding is appreciated, as is your respect and kind treatment of us.

Edited April 17, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[3DOP]

I assume (but I don't know for sure) that Mark's experience at a funeral Mass was in Los Angeles and happened most likely when Cardinal Mahoney was the Bishop there.  +Mahoney is not really known for his adherence to Catholic tradition (understatement!!) so I'm not really surprised.  Just check out any youtube videos of the Masses at the religious education conferences in LA... yikes!

 

Probably so. In any event, I don't blame Mark in the slightest for his participation. Such happenings are not infrequent. No one is surprised. No one challenges Mark to prove it. That is because everybody knows that there are priests and bishops who are validly ordained, but they have not received a Catholic formation. They truly don't care what the Catechism says or what the rubrics of the Mass are. Nevermind the Traditional Mass. They won't even adhere to the ritual of Paul VI!

[3DOP]

I'm just going to say that I'm still rather dumbfounded to find an SSPX traditional Catholic on MD&D.  God moves in mysterious ways, indeed!

 

Thank you, Rory, for sharing your story.  And thank you, LDS friends, for indulging us Catholics in having a side conversation about the problems that we see in our Church right now.  Your patience and understanding is appreciated, as is your respect and kind treatment of us.

 

Indeed...thanks very much to our LDS friends for letting us candidly say things that would be deleted and earn a ban at a forum that is no kinder to Traditional Catholics than it is to Mormons.

[Tacenda]

I'm just going to say that I'm still rather dumbfounded to find an SSPX traditional Catholic on MD&D. God moves in mysterious ways, indeed!

Thank you, Rory, for sharing your story. And thank you, LDS friends, for indulging us Catholics in having a side conversation about the problems that we see in our Church right now. Your patience and understanding is appreciated, as is your respect and kind treatment of us.

I've learned a lot more about Catholicism since you, Saemo and Rory converse about your religion, it's been nice since my BIL and niece are Catholic and it lets me into a little of their world.

[why me]

If joseph smith and oliver were telling the truth about receiving the priesthood from heavenly authorities then that would seal priesthood authority. We need to remember that oliver gave his final testimony about the book of Mormon on his deathbed in front of his wife and daughter. This would also be for such visitations. He didn't need to come back into the church.

Edited April 17, 2014 by why me

[why me]

I have a feeling that this thread has become a missionary thread for Catholicism.If only the lds can do the same on the catholic forum...speak about their religion without being mocked and abused. This is a real credit for the Mormons here. Interestingly, some catholic posters here can be nice as grandma¨s pie here and then on their own forum trash Mormons and Mormonism. It is a wonderful observation in psychology and the wonders of the internet. .

Edited April 17, 2014 by why me

[Storm Rider]

The catholic forum is a disgrace in how they treat other religions. If this forum would be as negative as that forum about other religions, this forum would be called unchristiain, unchristlike, and intolerant. It is amazing that they get away with what they get away with. It is a sad and intolerant board and they love to beat on the Mormons and their faith.

 

Every five or six months I go back and visit their site and I did so this past week.  It remains just as bad with the same players that I met years ago with just as twisted a view and prepared to say the most outlandish things about the Church of Jesus Christ.  HOWEVER, I was gratified to see that there remains small seeds of those filled with wisdom, Spirit, or maybe love that gently chide them for being so anti-Mormon.  

 

It is their site and they get to do with it as they will.  They also get to live with the consequences. 

[saemo]

Based on what you have said, you would really appreciate a traditional Latin Mass.  But just make sure that your first TLM is a High Mass (or at least a Sung Mass), so that you can experience all of the Gregorian Chant, traditional hymns, incense, etc.

What I like about my parish is, the Gregorian Chant, traditional hymns and incense. :-)  90% of the time we use the Latin/chant Credo. When I attend a Mass that doesn't use the Credo, I use the cheater card because I still haven't got the new English translation down. I am in absolute heaven when our choir uses the works of Mozart. Which, was a favorite longgg before I became Catholic. Imagine my surprise to discover Mozart's Requiem is meant to be used at Mass. I had no idea, whatsoever, that it was even liturgical music! Now I understand liturgy is where it belongs and it just makes me so happy, that both of us, are home where we belong.

 

I believe there is one parish in our diocese that  offers the TLM. It is even further than the parish that I go to now, and I am happy where I am. Involved with the parish and know the people who sit around me at Mass. Since my baptism I have wanted to try out a mantilla, but someone in my parish made sure I know that only "old women and crazy people" wear one. I have a hard enough time fitting in as it is. LOL. Someday, I'll make it to the TLM.