Priesthood Authority And Righteousness

[saemo]

Hey saemo...People like you who care about orthodoxy and adherence to rubrics have had to be satisfied to be "commuter parishioners". I drove my family forty miles through at least a dozen parish boundaries to do the same thing. For many years, I was embarrassed to let my brothers (siblings) know that I didn't go to the local parish. That I had to drive so far to find something satisfactory implies that there is something not right in all of the churches that were closer. I think there must have been closer to thirty churches that were nearer to us. But I wanted my siblings to consider the Catholic faith and if they really knew why I drove so far, it seemed like it would be a stumblingblock.

 

Sometime before the end of 2004, some new priests came to the parish to which we had been driving. The new pastor put up a notice in the sacristy about how times change and we must change with them. Our youngest son read the notice and told us about it when he was a thirteen year old altar boy. One of the other new priests began to admonish him because he was too solemn while he served the Mass. He was told he needed to lighten up, to start smiling. Then he was instructed that he needed to stop genuflecting so much while crossing in front of the Tabernacle and to employ a barely discernible "head-bob" instead. Oh yeah, that's the problem with the Catholic Church...too many ultra solemn and immoderately reverent altar servers. Its ridiculous. Besides noting what kind of altar boys are considered to be the problem in the Church today, I began to wonder more about those priests who were suspended and whose bishops were said to be excommunicated in the Church then. It is either madness or the enemy is truly inside the gates. Maybe both.

 

At the same time, it was Fall of 2004, completely without any warning, we were alarmed (in the other direction) when our oldest son who was a student at Thomas Aquinas College, disclosed that he had started going an a hour and a half to a Mass of the Society of St. Pius X with a group of other students. My wife and I weren't quite ready for that, but neither were we ready for what was happening in our parish. Without these two surprises arriving like a one-two punch, we would not have looked in some desperation to the Society of St. Pius X, going to our first Mass on the Feast of the Circumcision, January 1, 2005. We studied the literature of course. They didn't need to tell us there was an emergency in the Church, that pastors were failing us, and souls were perishing. That altar boy I mentioned above appears to be on his way to priestly ordination in 2017. I think his vocation would have been lost if we hadn't taken him away from those priests and exposed him to the Catholic Faith as it had been universally before our own generation. One of the guys in my other son's carpool? He is a Society priest since 2012. Compared to the Novus Ordo, the SSPX is a vocations factory. Everybody I know wants their children to be priests and religious...if they are called.      

 

I don't judge any Catholic who is not convinced that the situation is so dire, that we need to disobey the pope and our local ordinaries. It took personal events to make my wife and I get serious about understanding why Abp. Marcel Lefebvre behaved as he did, and was suspended for it. As he said, he was doing what he had done for his entire life as a priest and bishop. What drew praise and advancement in the 40's and 50's, suddenly drew jeers and suspensions in the 60's and 70's. Things are gone crazy. Sister Lucia used an expression...she spoke of a diabolical disorientation that would afflict the Church. I don't usually go for conspiracy theories and I won't now except I know that he who hates us, whose head will be crushed under the foot of the Immaculata still has his servants, and wants to crucify Christ's Bride, as Christ was crucified. The world and the devil...and the flesh (everyone's unregulated passions, mine included) hate the Church and how she reminds us always to mortify our continual companion. My flesh doesn't like Lent and it is dreading Holy Thursday and Good Friday.

 

Don't think that Catholics like me look down on our brothers and sisters who are fighting the good fight as their lights lead them, otherwise than we do. God bless you and give you and yours a good finish to this Lenten journey and a beautiful and joyful Easter season, knowing that as it was God's will to allow His Son to suffer, so shall His Church. We are never forsaken and the Church will triumph.

 

Regards,

 

Rory

Wow Rory! That's an amazing journey. We have more diocesan priests in formation now than we have for a long time. I think it is our Bishop, who is kind and nurturing and also orthodox.

 

There is a Maronite parish in our diocese that is orthodox. I've been to their Mass a couple of times, but like the Greek Orthodox, it is culturally not me. I'm neither Lebanese or Greek! But, the pastor there was wonderful. One of the parishioners there is the mother of one of our Super! orthodox priests, in the Latin Rite. He has a blog that just cracks me up, and makes good points regarding the "new"music being used at some parishes. None of that going on at his parish, that's for sure.

 

I didn't realize I was old fashioned about adhering to our Bishop, until a PRIEST at one of the parishes near me announced that their Easter Vigil would start at 7PM (long before sunset), and to not tell the Bishop. I was kind of stunned, thinking, what?  I'll be at my parish, where we start at 9PM and go till midnight. Holy week wears me out as well, but I get to be involved with our candidates and elect and their joy keeps me going. We have a retreat for them on Saturday morning, and provide lunch, then back at the parish for the Mother of all Masses. So, even when my knees are crying out, Enough! I am singing Alleluia. I am soooo tired by Saturday at midnight. But what a wonderful way to go.

 

What I see are orthodox Bishops, but people misconstruing teachings and even Vatican II. Kind of free for all, in some respects. I stick to the basics. Mass, prayer, scripture.

 

ETA: as for looking down, eh. My religious background is such that to me, the differences that various Catholics, Orthodox, SSPX, etc. argue over are minuscule compared to not being Christian at all. I could be happy in any of them, but I need structure, otherwise left to my own devices I become a heathen. So, the Roman Catholic Church works for me. The structure is there, imperfectly implemented by imperfect humans. As a fairly recent convert the nuances that Traditionalists are haunted by fly right over my head. I'm a stranger in a strange land, that speaks a different language and is a culture not my own. I'm more familiar than I am with All Things Catholic than I was 2, 5 or 7 years ago, but I'm still a basic kind of Catholic. As I said, Mass, prayer, scripture. If the rubrics change, I hold no belief that the Mass is invalidated or Christ is not present, Body and Blood. My complaints of "modern" parishes are more along the lines of respect for what is going on, and having an outward sign of some kind that indicates people understand what is going on at Mass.

 

I have fidelity to our Bishop, and have found no reason to not. That isn't to say I'm a blind follower. I pay attention. What I look for is a Christian life. What goes on at the Vatican seems to me far, far away. I live in the backwater of Catholicism. We don't really have the luxury of seeing the Vatican as not Catholic. It will always be 1000000 times more Catholic than the culture and society in which I live.

Edited April 17, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

I believe there is one parish in our diocese that  offers the TLM.

How does one find out what parish practices what type of Mass and when?  I have been to the more modern ones in my youth, I would be very interested to visit a more traditional one to see the beautiful and sacred experiences you three have described

[3DOP]

cal... http://sspx.org/en/community/priories

 

They are not in order. There is a place where you can enter what state you are looking for and those chapels and priories will come to the top of the list.

[Calm]

Thank you very much.

 

Is there a problem if one doesn't kneel or if one has to get up and move around?  I don't want to be disruptive if I ever get to go, but my disorder does create problems with sitting in one place or kneeling for very long.  Probably would sit at the back to make sure if I had to get up,  least disturbance like I do at my own church.

Edited April 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

How does one find out what parish practices what type of Mass and when?  I have been to the more modern ones in my youth, I would be very interested to visit a more traditional one to see the beautiful and sacred experiences you three have described

 

Every diocese lists its parishes and every parish I know of has a website, that lists their Mass times. The usual Mass in the U.S is Ordinary Form, in English, so when it is not that it will be noted. i.e., Spanish, Traditional Latin Mass, etc.

 

But, the Ordinary Form has a very wide range, from traditional leaning to liturgical dancers. In this case, it is a matter of word of mouth, or going to Mass and making discoveries. 

 

There are several internet lists of Traditional Latin Mass locations at times....looking.... http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm   ...if you really decide to go I'd check the parish website to make sure the Mass times haven't changed since being posted.

[Calm]

Nothing is available in Utah apparently on your link?  Or did I miss something?

[saemo]

cal... http://sspx.org/en/community/priories

 

They are not in order. There is a place where you can enter what state you are looking for and those chapels and priories will come to the top of the list.

 

cal... http://sspx.org/en/community/priories

 

They are not in order. There is a place where you can enter what state you are looking for and those chapels and priories will come to the top of the list.

None in Utah.

[Calm]

Every diocese lists its parishes and every parish I know of has a website, that lists their Mass times. The usual Mass in the U.S is Ordinary Form, in English, so when it is not that it will be noted. i.e., Spanish, Traditional Latin Mass, etc.

 

But, the Ordinary Form has a very wide range, from traditional leaning to liturgical dancers. In this case, it is a matter of word of mouth, or going to Mass and making discoveries. 

 

There are several internet lists of Traditional Latin Mass locations at times....looking.... http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm   ...if you really decide to go I'd check the parish website to make sure the Mass times haven't changed since being posted.

It looks like Taylorsville, Utah would be the only one I could get to practically speaking, but it doesn't appear to be traditional…or does it?  I just went and read the top more thoroughly and I thought it was just sharing mass times, but it is traditional mass so maybe Taylorsville does do Traditional Latin mass?

 

It is quite sad to read about masses being discontinued due to priests being transferred and not replaced.  We've been lucky, save for being in Russia I haven't lived where it has taken more than 45 minutes to get to Church.  From 8 to 13 we lived where we were the only LDS in our schools, even up to high school and it was hard for me at the time to feel part of the ward (it didn't help that I was very shy so seeing people on Sunday and on Thursday afternoon for Primary wasn't enough for me to feel connected to anyone there besides my family…I don't remember anyone at all sad to say and I generally have a good memory for that kind of stuff…or had).

 

But we still have problems with inconsistency in desirability of certain wards over others.  My son's family had a hard time attending their previous ward due to a variety of factors, but mostly high turnover…no one really tried to put down roots and or make friendships because they didn't see themselves as staying there very long.  Their current one they adore.  It is so important to have that certain connection that allows faith to flourish; it is obvious to me why Christ instructs us to meet together often and why he promises when we gather in his name he will be present.

Edited April 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

None in Utah.

If I ever get my miracle cure, I will have to include a traditional mass pilgrimage in my list of things to do now I am finally normal.

 

add-on:  going back and rereading, maybe Taylorsville, Utah does do Traditional Mass?

 

If not, I just might get to Denver again sometime to visit my sister.  Looks like there may be one there and she would be very interested in going I believe.

Edited April 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[MiserereNobis]

I have a feeling that this thread has become a missionary thread for Catholicism.If only the lds can do the same on the catholic forum...speak about their religion without being mocked and abused. This is a real credit for the Mormons here. Interestingly, some catholic posters here can be nice as grandma¨s pie here and then on their own forum trash Mormons and Mormonism. It is a wonderful observation in psychology and the wonders of the internet. .

 

Please don't judge Catholicism based on Catholic Answers Forum.  Just remember that 3DOP said he was banned from there, and you know what kind of poster he is.

 

And I don't think we are being missionaries or proselytizing -- we just found some providential commonalities to talk about.

 

I've never posted at that forum you mention (and it's not THE Catholic forum) so I'm not quite sure what you are refering to.

 

But again, thank you LDS friends for your patience with us believers in neo-Platonistic apostasy

Edited April 17, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[saemo]

It looks like Taylorsville, Utah would be the only one I could get to practically speaking, but it doesn't appear to be traditional…or does it?  I just went and read the top more thoroughly and I thought it was just sharing mass times, but it is traditional mass so maybe Taylorsville does do Traditional Latin mass?

 

It is quite sad to read about masses being discontinued due to priests being transferred and not replaced.  We've been lucky, save for being in Russia I haven't lived where it has taken more than 45 minutes to get to Church.  From 8 to 13 we lived where we were the only LDS in our schools, even up to high school and it was hard for me at the time to feel part of the ward (it didn't help that I was very shy so seeing people on Sunday and on Thursday afternoon for Primary wasn't enough for me to feel connected to anyone there besides my family…I don't remember anyone at all sad to say and I generally have a good memory for that kind of stuff…or had).

 

But we still have problems with inconsistency in desirability of certain wards over others.  My son's family had a hard time attending their previous ward due to a variety of factors, but mostly high turnover…no one really tried to put down roots and or make friendships because they didn't see themselves as staying there very long.  Their current one they adore.  It is so important to have that certain connection that allows faith to flourish; it is obvious to me why Christ instructs us to meet together often and why he promises when we gather in his name he will be present.

St. Martin de Porres in Taylorsville has both the Ordinary Form and the Latin Mass (aka Traditional, Tridentine). The Latin Mass times are the only ones listed at the website I posted.  Rory is SSPX, and SSPX  is a long story. You won't find SSPX Mass times listed in Roman Catholic directories and vice versa. So the two lists, one from Rory and one from me won't have any of the same parishes. 

 

One of my nieces was complaining at a family party not long ago that she didn't like her ward and that they're thinking of moving just so they can be in a different ward. Me, I just drive to wherever I like. The only constriction I have, as a Catholic, is to stay in the diocese where I live. Since all of Utah is one diocese, my options are wide.  Don't get me wrong, I am happy at Mass wherever I go. But I really favor the more formal rubrics and traditional hymns...and I don't like holding hands while praying. That's just me I think, and my sense of personal space.

Edited April 17, 2014 by saemo

[mfbukowski]

I assume (but I don't know for sure) that Mark's experience at a funeral Mass was in Los Angeles and happened most likely when Cardinal Mahoney was the Bishop there.  +Mahoney is not really known for his adherence to Catholic tradition (understatement!!) so I'm not really surprised.  Just check out any youtube videos of the Masses at the religious education conferences in LA... yikes!

Yes that's correct.

[mfbukowski]

Just wrote a.long post about being an Altar boy in the 1950's- lost it.  Oh well

 

How many here know how and when to ring the bells?  How about all the responses in Latin?

 

How about when to move "the book"?  "What do you want today- book or bells?"

 

And how much wine Vs water each priest wanted in the chalice?  

 

And getting dizzy from incense after swinging it for 10 minutes?

 

Do you know that every tongue is different?  And where to hold the paten?

 

It was great practice for officiating in the temple!  

Edited April 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Lighting the candles high over your head with the candle thingy can be tricky.   Too much wick on the lighter and a ball of burning wick could fall on the altar cloth and burn the church down.  It has happened.

 

And when you snuff them out if you squish the wick, get out the ladder because you won't light that candle again.

[3DOP]

Thank you very much.

 

Is there a problem if one doesn't kneel or if one has to get up and move around?  I don't want to be disruptive if I ever get to go, but my disorder does create problems with sitting in one place or kneeling for very long.  Probably would sit at the back to make sure if I had to get up,  least disturbance like I do at my own church.

 

Hi cal,

 

In the old days, large families would go in shifts to the Masses at the neighborhood parish so that someone was always at home with the little babies. As you see, many have to travel a good distance to Mass now, and that means babies come along. There can be some understandable disturbance for that reason with parents taking their crying babies back and forth. Seating yourself near the back might be more comfortable for you and certainly you could get up and go to the vestibule (entry way) if needed. I have had two back surgeries and don't always kneel. Most visitors observe the Mass standing when we do, sitting when we do (of course), and sit as we kneel and that is alright. If you would like to join us in kneeling, but can't for very long times, kneel when the bells sound for a minute or two. This would have you kneeling during the Sanctus (Holy, holy, holy from Isaias), the Consecration (when the species become the Body and Blood of Christ), and the priest's communion.

 

If you go to a High Mass (Sung), the congregation is supposed to stand whenever the full choir and congregation sings. This would have you standing during the Sanctus. There is actually less kneeling at a Sung Mass than at Low Mass.

Edited April 17, 2014 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

Hi cal,

 

In the old days, large families would go in shifts to the Masses at the neighborhood parish so that someone was always at home with the little babies. As you see, many have to travel a good distance to Mass now, and that means babies come along. There can be some understandable disturbance for that reason with parents taking their crying babies back and forth. Seating yourself near the back might be more comfortable for you and certainly you could get up and go to the vestibule (entry way) if needed. I have had two back surgeries and don't always kneel. Most visitors observe the Mass standing when we do, sitting when we do (of course), and sit as we kneel and that is alright. If you would like to join us in kneeling, but can't for very long times, kneel when the bells sound for a minute or two. This would have you kneeling during the Sanctus (Holy, holy, holy from Isaias), the Consecration (when the species become the Body and Blood of Christ), and the priest's communion.

 

If you go to a High Mass (Sung), the congregation is supposed to stand whenever the full choir and congregation sings. This would have you standing during the Sanctus. There is actually less kneeling at a Sung Mass than at Low Mass.

Ah they still ring the bells.

 

Because it's all in English, and all can now hear and understand the priest, I thought that was changed.  Don't remember from the few times I have been since.

[mfbukowski]

You know Saemo I think the church you joined is quite different than the church I left.

[MiserereNobis]

You know Saemo I think the church you joined is quite different than the church I left.

 

This is a true and sad fact that doesn't seem to be recognized by enough Catholics...

[why me]

And so, who has priesthood authority? Was it restored at the tine of Joseph Smith through heavenly visitations or is it with the catholics or is it with the protestants? It would seem that Oliver and Joseph received the authority through john the Baptist and the 3 apostles. I must say that it is an interesting concept to have the priesthood restored in this way. Quite ingenious if it was hatched in the mind of Joseph Smith.

[mfbukowski]

And so, who has priesthood authority? Was it restored at the tine of Joseph Smith through heavenly visitations or is it with the catholics or is it with the protestants? It would seem that Oliver and Joseph received the authority through john the Baptist and the 3 apostles. I must say that it is an interesting concept to have the priesthood restored in this way. Quite ingenious if it was hatched in the mind of Joseph Smith.

Indeed.

 

Just as interesting as if it was hatched in the.mind of Peter or Clement.

 

We agree that Peter had the authority.  What happened after that is strictly up to your personal testimony.

 

Maybe I will become a Sikh.  

 

Incidentally just had a visit from members of the local parish and had a warm conversation.  Told them my beliefs and they still want to talk further.  We are going to continue in the spirit of good will

 

Off to the temple.   Ahhhhhhh......  I feel better already.

Edited April 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[why me]

Indeed.

 

Just as interesting as if it was hatched in the.mind of Peter or Clement.

 

We agree that Peter had the authority.  What happened after that is strictly up to your personal testimony.

 

Maybe I will become a Sikh.  

 

Incidentally just had a visit from members of the local parish and had a warm conversation.  Told them my beliefs and they still want to talk further.  We are going to continue in the spirit of good will

 

Off to the temple.   Ahhhhhhh......  I feel better already.

It is important to have face to face conversations. Glad that you had a warm talk. I think that most people are tolerant of other people's beliefs. The internet can bring out the worst in people when it comes to communication.

[saemo]

You know Saemo I think the church you joined is quite different than the church I left.

Ditto.

[saemo]

This is a true and sad fact that doesn't seem to be recognized by enough Catholics...

The doctrines remain the same as they always have. Which is highly important to me, more important than anything. If that weren't important to me, I'd be Episcopalian (seriously). I'm not interested in any church fired up by "some guy".  (Sorry Rory, that includes SSPX.) I'm interested in the Church founded by Christ, during His ministry. The idea that Mass, as it was pre-Vatican II, is how Mass has been since time immemorial is not historically accurate. As an example, reaching back into Tradition, Mass was lingua franca in ALL cases, thus we have the various rites in the various languages because that is the language people were speaking.

 

LDS have a kind of doublespeak when it comes to changes in the Catholic Church. On the one hand, changes are viewed as Bad, an indication that something was lost. On the other, protecting the faith from changes is Bad, an indication that there is no guidance by the Holy Spirit because if there were, there would be changes.

 

The Catholic view is that there is the Faith handed on, once, for all. That is what is protected and preserved, but the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit through the ages, and so there is change. But never change in doctrines.

 

This doesn't mean I think the Roman Catholic Church has got it all down perfectly. I don't expect perfection from humans. But neither do I believe that Christ has left the building. Mormons, Protestants, SSPX….all say the same thing to me. Jesus left, and its up to "some guy" to figure out how to keep Him around or bring Him back.

 

I reject that idea, entirely.

[MiserereNobis]

The doctrines remain the same as they always have. Which is highly important to me, more important than anything. If that weren't important to me, I'd be Episcopalian (seriously). I'm not interested in any church fired up by "some guy".  (Sorry Rory, that includes SSPX.) I'm interested in the Church founded by Christ, during His ministry. The idea that Mass, as it was pre-Vatican II, is how Mass has been since time immemorial is not historically accurate. As an example, reaching back into Tradition, Mass was lingua franca in ALL cases, thus we have the various rites in the various languages because that is the language people were speaking.

 

LDS have a kind of doublespeak when it comes to changes in the Catholic Church. On the one hand, changes are viewed as Bad, an indication that something was lost. On the other, protecting the faith from changes is Bad, an indication that there is no guidance by the Holy Spirit because if there were, there would be changes.

 

The Catholic view is that there is the Faith handed on, once, for all. That is what is protected and preserved, but the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit through the ages, and so there is change. But never change in doctrines.

 

This doesn't mean I think the Roman Catholic Church has got it all down perfectly. I don't expect perfection from humans. But neither do I believe that Christ has left the building. Mormons, Protestants, SSPX….all say the same thing to me. Jesus left, and its up to "some guy" to figure out how to keep Him around or bring Him back.

 

I reject that idea, entirely.

 

I don't want to turn this into a Catholic debate over what has happened post-Vatican II, but I'll just say that from my point-of-view things swung way way way too far to the liberal, modern, protestant side of things and that is most easily observed in the VAST difference in the way the traditional Latin Mass is celebrated and the way that the new Mass is celebrated.  All of the SSPX debate I'll leave for others in a different place

[saemo]

I don't want to turn this into a Catholic debate over what has happened post-Vatican II, but I'll just say that from my point-of-view things swung way way way too far to the liberal, modern, protestant side of things and that is most easily observed in the VAST difference in the way the traditional Latin Mass is celebrated and the way that the new Mass is celebrated.  All of the SSPX debate I'll leave for others in a different place

Catholics leaving because the Church is too liberal, Catholics leaving because the Church is too conservative. Who, exactly, are the one's protesting with their feet?