My Logical Opposition To Our Policies With Homosexuality

[Calm]

That doesn't sound much like the word of the Lord if his word varies by who has input and who doesn't. Sorry that is messier then simply throwing it out as a catch all.

Brigham Young stated if the Book of Mormon had been written at a different time, it would be different. Someone just quoted him in another thread, iirc. Perhaps they can supply it here. It would appear that someone who I believe had a much greater familiarity with the production of the Word of God disagrees with you. You might want to rethink that particular paradigm.

she was made this way by that God and need not be burdened with artificial man made guilt.

Why the assumption that God made her this way as opposed to it being just a natural consequence of mortality? I wouldn't assume that God made me with brown hair and eyes, but rather the DNA combination of my parents was the cause. If homosexuality is caused by biology as is claimed in justification of the "no choice" premise, I don't see any proof that this automatically qualifies it as "God given".

I unfortunately no longer have the article, so I can't give you the reference, but there was an article quite some time back in the Sunstone by a BYU professor who was involved in the whol electric shock therapy BYU cure. He reported in the article that he had 300 married gay men he was in contact with. After 5 years, all but 6 had divorced. I think his study had a big influence on the church changing it's then prevelant position telling gay members to just get married, it will all go away if you just wish it so.

If someone knows of the article, I would love to have the reference.

Reference would be nice, especially as it might give us details about how this individual became acquainted with the 300 married gay men. If they sought out him because they were having problems with their marriage, it would raise the likelihood of future divorce. Gays in successful heterosexual marriages would have no need to seek out therapy. If we do not have data on total numbers of gays in heterosexual marriages, then the data we do have can only tell us the success rate for helping gays who seek help through therapy for their marriage relationship...and that success rate for that one therapist who undoubtedly has his own approach which may or may not be more successful or less successful than other forms of therapy.

that shock therapy

Since you seem to have a desire for accuracy, I would suggest you refrain from using the term "shock therapy" which is not an accurate label for what occurred. A better label would be use of the technical name with if you want specification of the type of aversion stimulus used: "aversion therapy using electrical shock". Most laymen hear "shock therapy" and assume it refers to something quite different.

For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_therapy

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_gender_issues/Same-sex_attraction/Aversion_therapy_performed_at_BYU

Edited April 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[canard78]

They are ours only in the sense that we have chosen to embrace them. They are of divine origen.

 

I don't believe they are. I took the time to study it out and pray about it. I got a different answer. That's good enough for me.

[why me]

Interestingly, the church of england is now in a bind since gay marriage is now legal in wales and england. It seems that they are against gay marriage too. However, there reasons have to do with numbers. The african anglican church has warned the mother church that if it supports gay marriage the african church will break away. I can say also that the africans who are members of the lds church would also leave. I do believe that european liberality is not shared by the majority of the world.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/uganda-anglican-church_n_4890603.html

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/african-anglicans-say-gay-bishops-affirmation-shatters-hopes-of-reconciliation-88038/

 

Why is it that people in the west can believe that god shares its moral relativism?

Edited April 6, 2014 by why me

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't believe they are. I took the time to study it out and pray about it. I got a different answer. That's good enough for me.

Is it your role to receive revelation to govern the entire Church?

 

The prophets and apostles do have that role.

[Calm]

Why me,

You've mention the POV of African members before. Can you explain why you have this familiarity with them?

Edited April 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[Teancum]

. Why the assumption that God made her this way as opposed to it being just a natural consequence of mortality? I wouldn't assume that God made me with brown hair and eyes, but rather the DNA combination of my parents was the cause. If homosexuality is caused by biology as is claimed in justification of the "no choice" premise, I don't see any proof that this automatically qualifies it as "God given".

 

 If God created the world and all that is in it God created us as we are.  Whether something is a fluke of nature or caused by God to me is a moot point. If God is omnipotent he can prevent it. He could have not allowed homosexuality to be something someone is born with if it is such an evil.  I guess it is like any problem, illness, tragedy of nature. Whether God causes it or not, or creates someone some way or another is moot if God can prevent it. 

[Teancum]

Is it your role to receive revelation to govern the entire Church?

 

The prophets and apostles do have that role.

  Are the prophets and apostles infallible?

[CMZ]

 If God created the world and all that is in it God created us as we are.  Whether something is a fluke of nature or caused by God to me is a moot point. If God is omnipotent he can prevent it. He could have not allowed homosexuality to be something someone is born with if it is such an evil.  I guess it is like any problem, illness, tragedy of nature. Whether God causes it or not, or creates someone some way or another is moot if God can prevent it. 

 

So many assumptions in here.

[why me]

Why me,

You've mention the POV of African members before. Can you explain why you have this familiarity with them?

The africans are much more conservative in moral issues. This is across the board for most of their religious affiliations. One just needs to talk to them. The anglican church in england can not come out and support what happened in wales and england without offending anglican members in africa. They are very traditional. And this would be no different for a more conservative faith as the lds faith in africa. I think that what draws africans to the lds is the moral code and the family code, not to mention the spiritual witnesses they have received. When it comes to polygamy they don't mind that part of lds history at all since polygamy has been in various parts of their cultures in the past. But of course, africa is a big continent and there are many cultures. But they are extremely conservative in their interpretation of christianity.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/24/evangelical-christians-homophobia-africa

 

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-07-06-south-africas-creeping-christian-conservatism

/#.U0GztaIymho

Edited April 6, 2014 by why me

[CMZ]

 If God created the world and all that is in it God created us as we are.  Whether something is a fluke of nature or caused by God to me is a moot point. If God is omnipotent he can prevent it. He could have not allowed homosexuality to be something someone is born with if it is such an evil.  I guess it is like any problem, illness, tragedy of nature. Whether God causes it or not, or creates someone some way or another is moot if God can prevent it. 

 

Are people supposed to accept things just as they are and never change? Elder Hallstrom discussed this last night.

[CMZ]

When it comes to polygamy they don't mind that part of lds history at all since polygamy has been in various parts of their cultures in the past. But of course, africa is a big continent and there are many cultures. But they are extremely conservative in their interpretation of christianity.

 

I can attest to this. I knew a black member from Africa about 20 years ago who grew up sounded by polygamy where the husbands loved and supported their wives. He saw it as more odd that the current Church would not allow polygamy. He also saw it as odd that his father was told by the Church to divorce all but one of his wives. Despite all this he had a firm testimony of the Gospel.

[Teancum]

So many assumptions in here.

 

Feel free to pass on better ones or contradict the ones I propose.  Do you as a believing Latter day Saint disagree that God is omnipotent?  Do you disagree that God created the world and our physical bodies?  If homosexuality is a fluke of nature and an evil thing that is opposed to God's plan could God prevent someone from being such, or everyone?

Edited April 6, 2014 by Teancum

[Calm]

If God created the world and all that is in it God created us as we are.  Whether something is a fluke of nature or caused by God to me is a moot point. If God is omnipotent he can prevent it. He could have not allowed homosexuality to be something someone is born with if it is such an evil.  I guess it is like any problem, illness, tragedy of nature. Whether God causes it or not, or creates someone some way or another is moot if God can prevent it.

So you would say that God gave someone alcoholism and other biologically determined tendencies, correct? Every physical tendency towards righteous or sinful behaviour?

[CMZ]

If God is omnipotent he can prevent it.

 

With a gospel perspective we should know full well that God doesn't prevent every less-than-ideal circumstance from occurring (and this is even with assuming that homosexual tendencies are inborn).

[CMZ]

  Are the prophets and apostles infallible?

 

No, but do we only listen to them when they concur with our own viewpoint? Are prophets and apostles given to us to confirm what we wish to believe? Or to bring us all into a unity of the faith?

[Calm]

The africans are much more conservative in moral issues. This is across the board for most of their religious affiliations. One just needs to talk to them.

So have you talked to many yourself or are you extrapolating from articles?

[why me]

I can attest to this. I knew a black member from Africa about 20 years ago who grew up sounded by polygamy where the husbands loved and supported their wives. He saw it as more odd that the current Church would not allow polygamy. He also saw it as odd that his father was told by the Church to divorce all but one of his wives. Despite all this he had a firm testimony of the Gospel.

The church members would probably support a revelation on allowing polygamy again. But they would leave if the church would allow same sex marriage. The church is a world wide church and god is a world wide god. And yet, gay men and lesbian women in the west fail to recognize that god just may not be influenced by secular rights founded in liberalism.

Edited April 6, 2014 by why me

[Storm Rider]

Let me share some assumptions I make

 

-  Those LDS with SSA are NOT choosing to be attracted to the same gender in almost all if not all cases

 

-  A large chunk of LDS with SSA wish when they become aware of it for it to go away.  They despise it, they know this non-chioice according to the Church is unacceptable to God.

 

-  The atonement is about change and yet we as a Church have acknowledged that for these individuals to marry someone of the opposite gender is not helpful in almost all cases, that shock therapy has shown not to work in any % that is substantial, and as much as these LDS wish it was not so and try to change it, they in almost all cases can not.

 

-    Essentially in almost all cases the only solution is to CHOOSE to live celibate for one's entire life.

 

-  If this was required by heterosexual LDS, I am doubtful that any significant % of LDS would accept such direction.  I for one will openly admit that if I was required to stay single and celibate, unable to be intimate, unable to have the closeness that I do with my wife, I would find another avenue of faith where such things were not imposed on me as a law of Faith.  I would guess in most other's heart of hearts they would do the same.  Feel free to proclaim your thoughts on being able and willing to do such things or not

 

-  yes there are people who do not marry and are celibate in this life.  The large majority of them have not CHOSEN this and wish beyond anything that it was not so and would jump at the chance to love another in marriage relationship

 

-  Yes some are single and have chosen such  for religious vocation or haven't found the right person yet.  In the case of religious vocation - There are indications that there is a problem, perhaps severe, with issues like pornography, child abuse, and secret relationships.  In regards to those who have not found one yet, there is still the hope that they will

 

-  Seeing as in the large majority of LDS with SSA it is not something they can change, and we are asking them to do something that for me anyway would not be possible.  

================================================================

With That said

 

-  Why would we expect them to stay?   Are we surprised 90% of those with SSA leave the faith?

 

-  Is it fair to ask them to remain celibate when some of us, me included, would not choose that? For me it would simply be too difficult

 

- If we  #1 require celibacy, # 2 for those not celibate, we remove church participation - What hope is there of ever bringing this group closer to Christ through the Church?

 

If seems to me we ask an almost impossible insurmountable requirement which we admit is not their fault nor can they likely change which logically I can't reconcile.

 

I am genuinely asking for help understanding this issue.

 

DB, first, let me say that I agree with your assumptions as far as individuals with SSA are the way they are because God made them that way. I also think this is a overly simplistic statement with a number of assumptions that may also be false.  Suffice it to say that I agree that some, not all, have little choice in the matter. They are simply attracted to members of the same sex.

 

Second, the atonement is a change of heart - specifically a desire to follow Christ, to submit to his will and to forfeit our own will.  He becomes our first love and all things and all persons take lesser, weaker position in our lives.  Nothing is more important than in submitting completely to Christ in all things - that is the ideal for a disciple of Christ and what each should be seeking.

 

It is not the rare person who never marries and never has an intimate relationship.  Some follow Christ and some don't; regardless they exist and to deny their existence in place of an all-consuming assumption that sex and sexual expression overrides all other things denies the possibility of discipleship and following Christ. All mass media would have us believe that we are completely sexual in nature and I disagree completely with that assumption. We are sexual beings, yes, but as disciples we declare that we will put our spirituality in a greater position, hold it to be of greater importance to us than sex, carnal desires, etc.

 

Third, we do not ask individuals to deny the way they are born or deny those who have feelings of attraction just as much as we do not deny/condemn an individual with congenital blindness.  We do not know why a person is born blind just as we do not know why a person is born with SSA.  We accept the fact that they are the way they are.  What we do teach is for all to come to Christ and accept him as their Lord and Savior.  We encourage each to be and become his disciple.  As each assumes this role of discipleship they will learn to accept his teachings and to obey his commandments.

 

With this foundation we teach:

1. We expect all to stay and follow Christ.  It is a personal choice and some will choose to follow him and others will not. Seldom is today's choice a permanent choice and it is our responsibility to reach out to all, declare repentance, and encourage every human to follow Him.
2. It is fair to teach all to obey the commandments and to forfeit our will for the Will of our God.  That is the role of discipleship for those with SSA as well as those without SSA.
3. It is without doubt a challenging proposition for those with SSA.  What we know is that the path of eternal happiness goes through Jesus Christ.  "If ye love me keep my commandments" is not the idle request of a stupid God or one that has not descended below each of us in trial and tribulation.  He bled from every pore and sacrificed his life so that we might know of his love and his mercy for us.  We either live in a state of repentance or not.  Is it fair that we say to one, "It is okay if you don't follow all the way; be content in your sin?" or should we teach that all must submit and all must follow Him who saves?  

The media has lied to us.  We are more than our genitals and our sexual urges. We are sons and daughters of God with the ability to live joyfully in a lifestyle that is fully in keeping with eternal principles.  He is either our first love or he is not.  Why would we teach anything else?  If we did it would not be the gospel of Christ.   

[Calm]

He also saw it as odd that his father was told by the Church to divorce all but one of his wives.

My understanding is this is not the policy today since divorce would create hardship for the former wives and their children. They are instructed instead not to be baptised. I wonder when it was changed (or perhaps the individual who taught him this was not familiar with actual policy).

[why me]

So have you talked to many yourself or are you extrapolating from articles?

I have talked to them. I have also spoken with african catholics. They have not been influenced by western religious relativism even though they have migrated to the west. The mindset is different. But I can say the same for Russia. The members there would not tolerate same sex marriage in the church either. They have been influenced by a rather conservative form of orthodoxy founded in the national religion. No influence of secular western relativism there either.

 

Many of us need to take a step outside our western mind and see the world anew.

Edited April 6, 2014 by why me

[Calm]

I have talked to them. I have also spoken with african catholics. They have not been influenced by western religious relativism even though they have migrated to the west.

Thanks.

[CMZ]

My understanding is this is not the policy today since divorce would create hardship for the former wives and their children. They are instructed instead not to be baptised. I wonder when it was changed (or perhaps the individual who taught him this was not familiar with actual policy).

 

I don't know his full family situation. It may be that his father remained married yet unbaptized. I'm not really sure. I do remember him showing me a picture of his family. His father had three wives and several children. Not like 20-30. Maybe something like 7-12. They seemed like an enlightened and happy family. No burkhas hiding the women.

Edited April 6, 2014 by CMZ

[Teancum]

So you would say that God gave someone alcoholism and other biologically determined tendencies, correct? Every physical tendency towards righteous or sinful behaviour?

 

Perhaps. Or is is a moot point whether he gave it or not if he can prevent it. 

[why me]

My understanding is this is not the policy today since divorce would create hardship for the former wives and their children. They are instructed instead not to be baptised. I wonder when it was changed (or perhaps the individual who taught him this was not familiar with actual policy).

It could also be that the church misjudged the situation in the past and did not realize the cultural importance of polygamy. This would seem likely since polygamy is the elephant in the room for us members in the west.

Edited April 6, 2014 by why me

[Teancum]

With a gospel perspective we should know full well that God doesn't prevent every less-than-ideal circumstance from occurring (and this is even with assuming that homosexual tendencies are inborn).

 

 

Does God ever intervene is such things?  Does God heal some and not others?  If yes why?