My Logical Opposition To Our Policies With Homosexuality

[Storm Rider]

Thank you for your response.  I actually agree with pretty much all that you said.  No I don't think that we need to be compelled in all things.  Most things make logical sense to most people.  Most things, Christ has given clear enough direction that every finite behavior does not need to be defined.  For example child abuse as you mentioned was addressed pretty clearly by the Savior.  Millstones seem like a pretty final answer to that question.  

 

I realize that for the majority of members, the church policy on gay marriage is clear enough and no further questions need to be answered.  But that is pretty much because it is an issue that they do not have to deal with.  They are not asked to not form close human bonds in this life.  They are not asked to wander through this world without a helpmate, something that God specifically declared the importance of.  These are pretty serious life changing decisions. It is a far more impactful issue to deal with than whether to indulge in drugs.  I think you understand that.  For some gay members, following the counsel of the leaders seems to be enough to give up so much in this life, with no clear understanding of what will happen in the next.  I obviously feel I need a bit more than just church policy.  Given the rate most gay members leave the church, I think it is safe to say that most need more than that.  Thank you for understanding that.  

 

Would everyone that is gay stay in the church if there was such a revelation?  Like you, I don't know.   And in all honesty, I am not sure what I would choose.  Certainly key for me would be KNOWING what God promises me in the next life.  If for example the promise is to be wed to a woman for eternity, then I would probably give it a pass.  If it were something else, then I may very well sacrifice what it would take to achieve such a reward.  Yes I know that some FEEL they know what is in store.  Perhaps for me, this part of the revelation would be the most important part.  It is also the least understood at this point.  Other than the opinion of Elder Oaks, little has been said about this.

 

The best advice I know if to follow the Spirit; don't worry about where it leads. It may be over hot coals and it may be through green fields. What is vital for each child of God is to follow.  I just don't have any answers as to why some suffer this and others don't. I have often said that when I get on the other side I would like to have a long conversation with my Father because, quite frankly, some of this mortal existence is harder than it needs to be.  I admit freely that I am one of those weaklings that also has drawn a line in the sand with our Father and said I will go here, but no further. He poked me in the eye about it and I sort of made it clear that I am not someone he can count on at all times and in all places. I need his mercy is so many, many ways.

 

Cal, I don't think you are any different than I am. We get up, we struggle with doing what is right, and we try to do our best. You have made choices that put you at odds with the Church; I make choices that make it clear I fall far, far away from any form of perfection.  I think what matters is that we keep trying and we keep learning.  If we have need of repenting, we should repent.  Some stuff is just too heavy to carry alone and we need to allow our Savior to share the burden if not carry the whole thing.

 

Many things will change in the Church; hopefully the result will be that all are more effective disciples.  Those changes may not involve an acceptance of what is sin, but I suspect we will see a much greater acceptance of all sinners.  

 

As an aside, I would encourage you to remember that we don't know the burdens that we each carry.  I promise you that there are many individuals that suffer in silence. They may appear happy, but their heart is heavy and their shoulders are bowed. Those are the ones that we should seek out and extend a helping hand. Those that always complain (do not think this applies to you; it does not) receive their reward ten times over. The ones you never would guess suffer the most cruel burdens and most of us never know of it.

 

Have peace in your life and with those you love and that love you. 

[smac97]

Homosexuality is modern only?

 

No.  My point is that the absence of a specific treatise on SSA in The Book of Mormon is not evidence against the Church's doctrinal position on SSA, any more than the absence of a specific treatise on pornography or meth, etc.

 

The implication here, I think, is that The Book of Mormon was written for our day, and that it "should" therefore specifically address modern issues like SSA.  I do not agree with that argument.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

None of us get to choose our trials.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Either we choose to overcome them or not.  Regardless we all get to live with them. 

 

Life is neither fair nor easy.  I am sure carrying a cross was not a barrel of laughs.

Or being scourged, or wearing a crown of three-or-four-inch thorns, or being mocked, or having people tell you that you cast out devils by the prince of devils (or that you have a devil yourself) or having the people in your own home town (many of whom were probably friends and family) reject you, or bleeding from every pore, or suffering, both body and spirit, for the sins of every man, woman, and child who has ever been (or ever will be) born, or having the religious leaders of the day continually oppose you verbally and try to trip you up (not to mention plotting to kill you), or being hailed by the masses and then being rejected by them in favor of a robber (all in the same week), having most of your disciples abandon you after you declare hard truths (you mean, like, that God cannot approve homosexual behavior?) and asking your apostles, "Will ye also go away?", or having no permanent residence ...

 

Christ didn't do anything to deserve any of this, but He got it anyway.

 

But, hey, I've got it really hard!  I don't think He can possibly understand any of my trials!

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[smac97]

I'd say you missed the point of his post.  It seems to me he is advocating committed relationships, not relationships wherein one partner can commit adultery.

 

I didn't miss the point.  My point is that the Law of Chastity prohibits adultery, homosexual behavior, and other things.  Adulterers can rationalize their prohibited behavior as well ("I am in an unhappy marriage, so I am entitled to having sex outside of marriage...").  So can fornicators ("I really love my boyfriend, so sex with him must be okay...").  Such rationalizations don't work in the LDS paradigm.

 

The same goes for people with SSA.  They can come up with nice-sounding reasons for violating the Law of Chastity, but such rationalizations don't work within the LDS paradigm.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Gray]

 

There wont be empty pews. Perhaps more gays will feel offended and leave the church, who knows. The Church will never budge on this.

 

If it doesn't, the church will, I sincerely believe, mostly empty of members. Not a good thing for the church or for the world. 

[Maestrophil]

I didn't miss the point.  My point is that the Law of Chastity prohibits adultery, homosexual behavior, and other things.  Adulterers can rationalize their prohibited behavior as well ("I am in an unhappy marriage, so I am entitled to having sex outside of marriage...").  So can fornicators ("I really love my boyfriend, so sex with him must be okay...").  Such rationalizations don't work in the LDS paradigm.

 

The same goes for people with SSA.  They can come up with nice-sounding reasons for violating the Law of Chastity, but such rationalizations don't work within the LDS paradigm.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

I agree... and that was the point I was making in my previous post.  Unfortunately, my children who feel the church should change it's stance on SSM also really don't see non-married people having sex as a big deal either, because the argument is based on "any expression of 'love' is OK"

[Gray]

That's like saying that when i choose to get my children vaccinated, i don't intend for them to suffer, it just happens.   

 

Suffering isn't the goal of this life, but it is a part of it that God knew we would encounter and which God, specifically and with purpose and foreknowledge, allows us to encounter for the greater good.

 

He allows people to suffer every day for things that they did not choose to happen to them, and He expects people to keep His commandments even when doing so is very very very difficult and even painful.

 

Why should we believe that this is true for everyone but gay people?

 

I don't think that's how it works. And I think Jesus taught that living the commandments shouldn't be heavy or painful. That part should be joyful - you know, my yoke is light, etc. 

 

It's not painful for me to live the commandments. It's pretty easy. But then again I'm not gay. 

[Rob Osborn]

 

If it doesn't, the church will, I sincerely believe, mostly empty of members. Not a good thing for the church or for the world.

Gods Kingdom is not of this world so whats your point? The church isnt going to budge and it will definitely not lose its members over them never changing Gods laws on the matter.

[smac97]

If it doesn't, the church will, I sincerely believe, mostly empty of members. Not a good thing for the church or for the world. 

 

I think the Church will lose some members, perhaps even a significant number.  But I don't think we will see the mass exodus you predict.  I think many Latter-day Saints have strong testimonies but still have unease or lack of a full understanding on certain doctrinal issues, but they stay with the Church because the power of the testimony is stronger than the power of doubt or unease.  

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Gray]

 

I can understand why 1/3 the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer. All one has to do is get peopl on board to the idea we should all just be laws unto our own selves and thus whatever we decide goes. God has always condemned homosexuality. Its only Satan who champions for homosexuality. Who's side are you on?

 

The people who seem to be most hostile toward homosexuality are those who don't personally know any gay people. Human empathy and love is what is softening people's hearts on this issue. More and more of us are listening to our consciences. That includes many people within the church. 

 

I didn't always listen to my conscience on this issue, but now I do. I no longer can say that gay relationships are sinful, within the bonds of marriage. That's not what my heart tells me. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Gray

[Maestrophil]

If it doesn't, the church will, I sincerely believe, mostly empty of members. Not a good thing for the church or for the world. 

 

There are some of us who will not leave, and in fact, will stay BECAUSE the church holds the line on core issues like the 10 commandments/chastity

[Stone holm]

 

Gods Kingdom is not of this world so whats your point? The church isnt going to budge and it will definitely not lose its members over them never changing Gods laws on the matter.

 

A good thing to remind people of when they start mixing religion and politics,  Christ uttered it when being accused of political ambitions in this world and He disclaimed those.

[ERayR]

But nothing about homosexuality

 

Exactly, nothing about homosexuality and a lot of other specific issues. 

[Rob Osborn]

 

The people who seem to be most hostile toward homosexuality are those who don't personally know any gay people. Human empathy and love is what is softening people's hearts on this issue. More and more of us are listening to our consciences. That includes many people within the church. 

 

I didn't always listen to my conscience on this issue, but now I do. I no longer can say that gay relationships are sinful, within the bonds of marriage. That's not what my heart tells me.

I know gay people. I even have extended family who are gay or who have tried gay acts. Just as I also have friends and family who are on drugs I still love them but still have no tolerance nor condone any of theur sinful practices and they know how I feel. Gay relationships will always be sinful whether or not they have some civil marriage or not.

[Gray]

Not by name, no.  But neither is pornography.  Or cocaine.  Or meth.  Or any number of specific modern problems.

 

And it is addressed specifically in the Bible.  Does not Bible not count these days?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

Sure, the Bible counts, but we have few examples within the Bible. Some of those are included in the Law of Moses, and the rest were written by Paul, who we don't always see eye to eye with as a people, anyway.

 

In any case, what's changing people's hearts on this is not what prooftexts aren't or are in a certain scripture, but what we encounter in real life with our families and friends. We encounter gay people living in these committed relationships and we see ourselves reflected in the mirror. They're just like us. An evil tree can't bring forth good fruit. The good principles we learned in the scriptures (the universal principles that all holy books seem to teach) are the same ones that are telling us we've been wrong about this issue. 

 

Mormons as a people are accustomed to following the spirit and listening to our hearts. That's why I think eventually we'll all change on this issue. 

[Kenngo1969]

It's also interesting that homosexuality is not brought up at any time in the Book of Mormon, D&C or POGP

 

There are a lot of things that are not specifically addressed in those publications. 

 

 

Mosiah 4:29-30:

29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

 

30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

[ERayR]

If it doesn't, the church will, I sincerely believe, mostly empty of members. Not a good thing for the church or for the world. 

 

Dire prediction this is.  The Church must embrace sin or it will fail.  I have serious doubts this will happen.  By the way which sins do you want on the absolution list.

[Gray]

This doesn't work in the LDS paradigm.  By your reasoning, a man who is in an unhappy marriage is at liberty to commit adultery so as "to seek out a committed relationship with someone they are attracted to."

 

You're right about people with SSA being "not so different from" straight folks.  We are all commanded to adhere to the same standards of sexual behavior under the Law of Chastity.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

We find it easy to ignore some parts of the law of chastity. For instance, Jesus taught that divorce and remarriage amounts to adultery. It's easy for us to ignore that one because it's so inconvenient. It's also easier for us to listen to Paul's words about same-sex relations because it costs us nothing to do so. We have no skin in that game. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We find it easy to ignore some parts of the law of chastity. For instance, Jesus taught that divorce and remarriage amounts to adultery. It's easy for us to ignore that one because it's so inconvenient. It's also easier for us to listen to Paul's words about same-sex relations because it costs us nothing to do so. We have no skin in that game. 

Pretty sure there was conditions for that divorce to be called adultery. It was not a blanket statement for all divorce. 

[Gray]

 

Gods Kingdom is not of this world so whats your point? The church isnt going to budge and it will definitely not lose its members over them never changing Gods laws on the matter.

 

Neither of us can predict the future, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see

[Scott Lloyd]

Thank you thank you thank you.

Don't get your hopes up. If I remember correctly, he made the same pledge to me on one occasion. It turned out to be an empty promise.

[Gray]

I think the Church will lose some members, perhaps even a significant number.  But I don't think we will see the mass exodus you predict.  I think many Latter-day Saints have strong testimonies but still have unease or lack of a full understanding on certain doctrinal issues, but they stay with the Church because the power of the testimony is stronger than the power of doubt or unease.  

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

Most ex-Mormons are people who had a strong testimony at one point. There are plenty of historical problems with the church that we can overlook if we are happy in our membership. But if being a Mormon made you as looked-down-upon as some of the most fringe/radical groups, I think many would find reasons to leave the church, reasons they overlooked when it was a pleasant experience to be LDS. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Gray

[Gray]

There are some of us who will not leave, and in fact, will stay BECAUSE the church holds the line on core issues like the 10 commandments/chastity

 

I think most people of that type are of the older generation. People under 30 really don't get the church's opposition to SSM, but it makes perfect sense to baby boomers. 

[Stone holm]

 

I know gay people. I even have extended family who are gay or who have tried gay acts. Just as I also have friends and family who are on drugs I still love them but still have no tolerance nor condone any of theur sinful practices and they know how I feel. Gay relationships will always be sinful whether or not they have some civil marriage or not.

 

Correct, I have a close gay relative and have known many gays.  While I view homosexual activity sinful, I also do not see it as my business to try and prevent them from getting married, and certainly do not find their activities to be comparable to drug abuse.  I believe eventually, we will be in a position where we just say, "well its not something we approve of or do," and let it go at that.  Right now we are still caught up in the busybody state somewhat, but that too will pass.

[Gray]

Mosiah 4:29-30:

 

That's specifically referring to the sin of planking:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planking_(fad)