Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Well, I would think that if BYU was like NYU with students just sleeping around, it may just keep parents from sending their kids there. Parents send their kids to BYU because of its reputation...it is a church university and as such parents expect a certain standard. Of course, the church itself preaches sexual purity. Rather difficult to make allowances for its own university.By the time college comes around one isn't really a "kid" anymore. And said "kid" should have a say in which college to go to, not where their parents want to send them. I mean unless the parents are paying for it, but even then when I'm sending my kids to college I'm going to let them choose where they want to go within monetary reason. BYU isn't easy to get into (unless you're a relative of a general authority, then you get in automatically no matter how stupid you are! You also have a much easier time getting in if you served a mission) and it also isn't cheap. "Parents send their kids to BYU for its reputation...." idk what to even say to that. If a student is gonna mess around they're gonna do it whether it's at BYU or UofU or "insert university here", sending them to BYU isn't gonna magically make them follow the rules.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Yeppers, I was BIC, baptised, later endowed, and sealed to my husband. Happily lived the mormon life for a couple of decades, then the internet happened...and wonder why others know all of it and keep the faith, why couldn't I? But still active and trying, have good days and bad days. I don't think the leaders are decieving anyone, they believe, I think.You mean like you have a bit of trouble with your faith in the church due to all the information available nowadays? Cause I mean everything aside, you have to admit..... P.S. I don't think all the leaders are deceiving everyone, but at the top levels there is stuff that goes on that they suppress from members imo Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101
The Nehor Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 By the time college comes around one isn't really a "kid" anymore. True in terms of physical development, often untrue in terms of emotional, mental, and psychological development. Ideally the BYU schools would be filled with students who, of their own free will, want to live in the kind of environment the schools have. Sadly we have many spineless weak-willed college kids who go because their parents want them to. Same thing happens with missions. My least favorite mission companion was in the field because his dad said he would get a truck when he got home. I pointed out to the numbskull that if he got a job at home he could buy the truck on his own in less time working much more reasonable hours. That never occurred to him. I decided not to go to BYU. Mostly because of the standards. I have no problem with them and largely lived them where I did go to school but I did not want to live in an environment where they were enforced.
why me Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Happily lived the mormon life for a couple of decades, then the internet happened...and wonder why others know all of it and keep the faith,Know what? The point is that people who know know that history has many interpretations and possibilities. And they seem to see it all through a critical lens. And they also know just how people can write a very convincing interpretation but which may not be the only 'correct' interpretation.
why me Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) By the time college comes around one isn't really a "kid" anymore. And said "kid" should have a say in which college to go to, not where their parents want to send them. I mean unless the parents are paying for it, but even then when I'm sending my kids to college I'm going to let them choose where they want to go within monetary reason.My point was rather simple: since BYU is a church school, mormon parents would not be expecting to have their kids go to a place that did not have an honor code. It is only natural. I am sure that the same is true for most bible colleges too. Or even Notre Dame. http://honorcode.nd.edu/the-honor-code/ This is not just a mormon thing going on. It has more to do with reputation and church sponsorship. Edited March 30, 2014 by why me
why me Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 You mean like you have a bit of trouble with your faith in the church due to all the information available nowadays? Cause I mean everything aside, you have to admit.....Well, I don't know about this. It seems to me that there is a concerted effort by critics to bring up information about church history and make a big deal about it. However, not many protestants know their own church's history and the same can be said about catholics. However, it is the mormons that are taking the history battle to heart. How much should one know about their church's history? Many Americans do not know who Richard Nixon was. Nor jimmy carter. And most do not know that the russians were allies in WWII. What to do? History is a potent weapon for any critic of any religion. People are not perfect and since it is people who make history, one can expect imperfections.
ERayR Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 You know, I have been going to BYU-I now and am about to graduate soon. Of course, you know we have all heard about the honor code and how it is our duty to report violations. I would like to know you guy's experience with BYU schools and the honor code, specifically sex related stuff, and getting kicked out of school. The reason I am asking is because it is always being brought up in our classes by students in our "what if / cast study" scenarios (even outside religion classes) Kids are always asking questions like "should I turn my friend in to the bishop?". Obviously the would, but they seem scared more of the Bishop kicking their friend out of school than anything else. My question is what is usually the end result of a bishop finding out a student is having sex at the BYU schools? Are they toast? Your question brings to my mind something about beams and motes.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Well, I don't know about this. It seems to me that there is a concerted effort by critics to bring up information about church history and make a big deal about it. However, not many protestants know their own church's history and the same can be said about catholics. However, it is the mormons that are taking the history battle to heart. How much should one know about their church's history? Many Americans do not know who Richard Nixon was. Nor jimmy carter. And most do not know that the russians were allies in WWII. What to do? History is a potent weapon for any critic of any religion. People are not perfect and since it is people who make history, one can expect imperfections.All of the people I associate with know who Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter are. And the Russians weren't our allies until July 1941 after Germany turned on them the previous month, before that Germany and Russia were allies. That was a poor analogy. Except for the part where you said most people don't know enough about their own religions including protestants, catholics, etc.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) True in terms of physical development, often untrue in terms of emotional, mental, and psychological development. Ideally the BYU schools would be filled with students who, of their own free will, want to live in the kind of environment the schools have. Sadly we have many spineless weak-willed college kids who go because their parents want them to. Same thing happens with missions. My least favorite mission companion was in the field because his dad said he would get a truck when he got home. I pointed out to the numbskull that if he got a job at home he could buy the truck on his own in less time working much more reasonable hours. That never occurred to him. I decided not to go to BYU. Mostly because of the standards. I have no problem with them and largely lived them where I did go to school but I did not want to live in an environment where they were enforced.Lol, calling him a numbskull is putting it lightly. Ya, see I don't have a problem with most members, I mean if you know everything about your church and you're informed, you're an adult, you can belong to whatever religion you want. I just don't get members like the dude you said you had as a companion for a little bit. You sound like an alright guy, anywho, I have a similar story... I was at the mall with my little brother, we were eating in the food court and a girl (well I guess she's a woman now) and her dad from my ward growing up approached us and started talking to us. I knew her very well in Jr. High and High School, now keep in mind this was maybe 6 months ago and I'm 24 now and haven't been a member for 8 years, but I digress. Anyway, her dad left and as she talked to my brother and I more she casually just like, "informed" me that her and her fiance had already had sex a bunch of times and they drink alcohol but were just putting up a "charade" for both of their families. She just got married in the temple a couple months ago. I remember my mom asking if I wanted to go to her reception, to which I declined. I had to hold myself back from just straight up yelling at her in the mall.... why pretend to belong to a religion? I just wanted to go off on her about how what she and her fiance were doing was wrong beyond reason, but I held my tongue. Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101
Buzzard Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 ission) "Parents send their kids to BYU for its reputation...." idk what to even say to that. If a student is gonna mess around they're gonna do it whether it's at BYU or UofU or "insert university here", sending them to BYU isn't gonna magically make them follow the rules.Do you know what the "true reputation" of BYU even is, or are you so busy mocking that you don't even care?Often referred to not just by alumni, but by the leaders of the church as The Lords University, BYU is one of the nations top schools for placement into graduate and professional programs in the nation. A higher percentage of BYU students go on to pursue higher degrees than almost any other school. It also is rated in the top ten schools by corporate recruiters. That means that when they are hiring, BYU is one of the first schools in the nation that they look to.And yes, it's a different place. But considering the social environment on many campuses, I would submit that is a good thing.
why me Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 All of the people I associate with know who Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter are. And the Russians weren't our allies until July 1941 after Germany turned on them the previous month, before that Germany and Russia were allies. That was a poor analogy. Except for the part where you said most people don't know enough about their own religions including protestants, catholics, etc.I am sure that they do. However, most americans don't know. They are clueless. What year did america enter the war? December 7th 1941? My point was simple: people do not know their history and people certainly do not know their church's history for the most part. Church is a place of worship and not a place to study history and for most, they attend church to worship and not study. My analogy with the russians was a good one.
MorningStar Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 There are plenty of schools that allow you to fornicate all you want. If you don't want to keep the honor code, then don't go to BYU. BYU students who break the law of chastity often cause issues for their roommates and I think that's when the "snitching" comes in. Those who want to keep the honor code and live in a good, wholesome atmosphere shouldn't have to deal with roommates who are sneaking in their girlfriend or boyfriend. I didn't go to BYU, but I lived in BYU approved housing and dealt with a roommate who shared a room with me and thought it was OK to bring her boyfriend into her bed while I was there. She even had the nerve to snap at me when I asked her to have her boyfriend leave - I needed to change my clothes. She said, "Dude! Go change in the bathroom!" I said, "THIS IS MY ROOM TOO AND HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN HERE!" Then with another boyfriend, the two of them ended up naked on the couch together when everyone was home. She was in the process of applying to BYU at the time and was seeking our bishop's endorsement. 1
why me Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 I was at the mall with my little brother, we were eating in the food court and a girl (well I guess she's a woman now) and her dad from my ward growing up approached us and started talking to us. I knew her very well in Jr. High and High School, now keep in mind this was maybe 6 months ago and I'm 24 now and haven't been a member for 8 years, but I digress. Anyway, her dad left and as she talked to my brother and I more she casually just like, "informed" me that her and her fiance had already had sex a bunch of times and they drink alcohol but were just putting up a "charade" for both of their families. She just got married in the temple a couple months ago. I remember my mom asking if I wanted to go to her reception, to which I declined. I had to hold myself back from just straight up yelling at her in the mall.... why pretend to belong to a religion? I just wanted to go off on her about how what she and her fiance were doing was wrong beyond reason, but I held my tongue.This kind of story can happen in religious households. Again it is not just a mormon thing. People have their own free agency. And they are responsible for their actions. I tend to give people some slack. However, I am surprised that she told this story in the food court with your little brother present. So, an old friend began starting to talk about her sex life in the food court? Strange. The food court is not a good place for such a conversation. Much better to nod one's head politely...
thesometimesaint Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Well I must be an anomaly then cause I'm in the top 2 percentile, at least according to the Wechsler IQ test (administered and interpreted by a Psychologist) All I claim is to be smarter than the average bear, but then again bears aren't very smart.
Tacenda Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 There are plenty of schools that allow you to fornicate all you want. If you don't want to keep the honor code, then don't go to BYU. BYU students who break the law of chastity often cause issues for their roommates and I think that's when the "snitching" comes in. Those who want to keep the honor code and live in a good, wholesome atmosphere shouldn't have to deal with roommates who are sneaking in their girlfriend or boyfriend. I didn't go to BYU, but I lived in BYU approved housing and dealt with a roommate who shared a room with me and thought it was OK to bring her boyfriend into her bed while I was there. She even had the nerve to snap at me when I asked her to have her boyfriend leave - I needed to change my clothes. She said, "Dude! Go change in the bathroom!" I said, "THIS IS MY ROOM TOO AND HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN HERE!" Then with another boyfriend, the two of them ended up naked on the couch together when everyone was home. She was in the process of applying to BYU at the time and was seeking our bishop's endorsement.Sounds like a girl that may have been forced to apply at BYU, and not too authentic. I've heard there is an underbelly of students like this that you don't hear about too often. My son lived on BYU campus but attended UVU. It was fairly strict, and they had to have their apartment checked, I think monthly. He has transferred to Utah State and it isn't so restrictive any more. I wonder if the restrictions at BYU really stop what happens, but probably more than say, U of U. I just wonder if this mentality stunts maturity and the idea they are old enough to make decisions without the auhority figure.
thesometimesaint Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Sounds like a girl that may have been forced to apply at BYU, and not too authentic. I've heard there is an underbelly of students like this that you don't hear about too often. My son lived on BYU campus but attended UVU. It was fairly strict, and they had to have their apartment checked, I think monthly. He has transferred to Utah State and it isn't so restrictive any more. I wonder if the restrictions at BYU really stop what happens, but probably more than say, U of U. I just wonder if this mentality stunts maturity and the idea they are old enough to make decisions without the auhority figure. The problems at BYU are just a microcosm of the problems facing young adults everywhere. OTOH we don't have to accept it just because "everyone" is doing it.
sdc999 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Well, I would think that if BYU was like NYU with students just sleeping around, it may just keep parents from sending their kids there. Parents send their kids to BYU because of its reputation...it is a church university and as such parents expect a certain standard. Of course, the church itself preaches sexual purity. Rather difficult to make allowances for its own university.reputation - partly. cost - big factor. I know of several kids who didn't have a choice. "Either BYU or pay for it yourself". This isn't an exclusive Mormon issue though. A great friend of mine told his kid he was free to go to any university - but his tuition was going to be at Texas A&M. In choosing 'with' out daughter, we wanted a school with a great reputation and money played a factor as well. It came down to two private schools. A 70k scholarship won out over a 50k scholarship. As far as the honor code goes - if I haven't planted the seeds for a good moral character and making individual choices by now - then I have failed as a parent. Kids shouldn't be overwhelmed by these 'choices' in their freshman year.
MorningStar Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Sounds like a girl that may have been forced to apply at BYU, and not too authentic. I've heard there is an underbelly of students like this that you don't hear about too often. My son lived on BYU campus but attended UVU. It was fairly strict, and they had to have their apartment checked, I think monthly. He has transferred to Utah State and it isn't so restrictive any more. I wonder if the restrictions at BYU really stop what happens, but probably more than say, U of U. I just wonder if this mentality stunts maturity and the idea they are old enough to make decisions without the auhority figure.No, she wasn't forced. Her parents would have been happy for her to attend school at home in California.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Sounds like a girl that may have been forced to apply at BYU, and not too authentic. I've heard there is an underbelly of students like this that you don't hear about too often. My son lived on BYU campus but attended UVU. It was fairly strict, and they had to have their apartment checked, I think monthly. He has transferred to Utah State and it isn't so restrictive any more. I wonder if the restrictions at BYU really stop what happens, but probably more than say, U of U. I just wonder if this mentality stunts maturity and the idea they are old enough to make decisions without the auhority figure.Exactly, all it does is prolong the rebelliousness of being a teenager into someone's twenties, which I would say is definitely stunted growth. Just let people choose. Snitching is lame but I suppose there may be some things that would warrant it, like a roommate selling drugs or other serious stuff. But people that age shouldn't act like teenagers anyway, but I've noticed people in Utah County act a lot younger than people that live elsewhere. Like I said I agree to the above, don't go to a school with a strict honor code if you aren't gonna live it. But then some people's parents threaten to only pay for college if they go to BYU. Some may say, "well they should pay their own way" but to that I said no way screw that, free college is free money down the line you'd be crazy not to take it. I guess at least live off campus or something so you can attend the school but not live on campus if you're gonna have a significant other or smoke weed or whatever. To whoever had the story about sharing a room with a roommate who would sneak her BF in. Ya that is definitely inappropriate, if you had separate rooms maybe but with you in the same room?! Sounds like an immature overindulged girl.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 reputation - partly. cost - big factor. I know of several kids who didn't have a choice. "Either BYU or pay for it yourself". This isn't an exclusive Mormon issue though. A great friend of mine told his kid he was free to go to any university - but his tuition was going to be at Texas A&M. In choosing 'with' out daughter, we wanted a school with a great reputation and money played a factor as well. It came down to two private schools. A 70k scholarship won out over a 50k scholarship. As far as the honor code goes - if I haven't planted the seeds for a good moral character and making individual choices by now - then I have failed as a parent. Kids shouldn't be overwhelmed by these 'choices' in their freshman year.Exactly.
Truth 101 Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) This kind of story can happen in religious households. Again it is not just a mormon thing. People have their own free agency. And they are responsible for their actions. I tend to give people some slack. However, I am surprised that she told this story in the food court with your little brother present. So, an old friend began starting to talk about her sex life in the food court? Strange. The food court is not a good place for such a conversation. Much better to nod one's head politely...Church is a place of worship and learning the history and reason you're worshiping there in the first place IMO. But if you want to blindly worship go ahead. I'm 24, my little brother is a year and a half younger, so not a big deal. I'm not surprised we had a candid relationship growing up. And yes I did nod my head politely. But I still thought, "Dumb ***** *****" Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101
thatjimguy Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 Ok all. I think we've gotten off the track of my post. I understand the rules and all. Heck, I go there! (well, BYU-Idaho anyway) but what I wanted to know was about the experiences people have seen happen with this. The question wasn't about right or wrong, or snitching. It is about what has happened to those that had to go to the bishop. No hypothetical please. We all know what can happen. What I want to know is what has happened in general. How is it usually treated?
Anijen Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 This is actually a difficult dilemma to face. I grew up when snitching was forbidden and seemed to cast the tattle tale into the same degree of sin. It is still the same today. Although I believe confessing ones owns weaknesses to the Bishop is better than admitting them to a Bishop, it still can get the repentance process going. If I knew with 100% surety that my roommate was actively breaking the rules I would consider an anonymous note to his Bishop. Now this means the big honor code violation such as sex, we're not talking a parking violation here. I tend to lean this way because of the verses in the Book of Mormon about the Gadianton robbers who flourished because the covenants made not to snitch on each other. I would hope that the punishment process can be one without expelling the student, however BYU is a privet school and everyone seems to know what is allowed and what is not. Even here in Nebraska they know... I don't know I tend to lean on the telling side, but still is it my business? I am glad I have never been in that situation.
Okrahomer Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Ok all. I think we've gotten off the track of my post. I understand the rules and all. Heck, I go there! (well, BYU-Idaho anyway) but what I wanted to know was about the experiences people have seen happen with this. The question wasn't about right or wrong, or snitching. It is about what has happened to those that had to go to the bishop. No hypothetical please. We all know what can happen. What I want to know is what has happened in general. How is it usually treated?I went to BYU. I was not aware of anyone "turning people in" while I was a student. I certainly never did it. It was not taught or encouraged--at least I was never aware of it--and I doubt it was practiced much--if at all. When I was at BYU, there was a great deal of interest in the writings of C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien which was the direct result of a devotional lecture given by Wayne C. Booth, wherein he utilized the technique Lewis employed in The Screwtape Letters to speculate about how the devil might be going about "homogenizing and desensitizing" the Latter-Day Saints. We were nearly daily entertained by Letters to the Editor in the Daily Universe and the cartoons of Bagley and Benson. The overwhelming memory I have of my time at BYU, is of the deep and lasting friendships that grew up between a lot of great but imperfect kids working hard to "become."
why me Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Church is a place of worship and learning the history and reason you're worshiping there in the first place IMO. But if you want to blindly worship go ahead. I'm 24, my little brother is a year and a half younger, so not a big deal. I'm not surprised we had a candid relationship growing up. And yes I did nod my head politely. But I still thought, "Dumb ***** *****"Okay. How much history should be learned? I think that history is learned at BYU. But I am not sure just how much should be learned at church. I suppose that we could have history lessons during sunday school. But then again, in a world wide church, one would also need to teach context. For example, what the early lds church experienced in terms of intolerance may go back to the puritans and Jamestown and their experiences with difference. Burning of witches because these people acted differently. Hostilities with the indians because indians were different etc. And how such culture traits made an impact on mormon history in the beginning etc. Nothing happens in a bubble. But church is not a university class. I try not to judge people and so, I would have just shook my head or if this person was a friend, I would have a talk with her, if possible. I would find it interesting to get into the person's mind to understand why they acted the way they did. But I wouldn't think harshly of them. Likewise if I were a student at BYU. No one is perfect. Or as Margaret Mead once said I believe: I am as perfect as everyone else.
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