jaxenro Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Four of my wife's siblings are deceased, we don't know about the other two. Can she have the work done for them and does it matter if the have offspring?
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Generally, you may perform temple ordinances for deceased persons one year or more after the date of death without regard to the person’s worthiness or cause of death. If you have questions, please contact your bishop or branch president.Before you perform ordinances for a deceased person born within the last 110 years, obtain permission from the closest living relative. Relatives may not want the ordinances performed or may want to perform the ordinances themselves. The closest living relatives are, in this order: a spouse, then children, then parents, then siblings. If you don't know of a death date, you must wait 110 years after their birth year, I believe. https://www.lds.org/manual/members-guide-to-temple-and-family-history-work/chapter-7-providing-temple-ordinances?lang=eng
jaxenro Posted March 16, 2014 Author Posted March 16, 2014 My concern was more her one sister who has children. Contacting them would be problematic. We are not sure if the two remaining brothers are alive or dead although the likelihood is they have passed onWorthiness doesn't enter into it I thought
thesometimesaint Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Four of my wife's siblings are deceased, we don't know about the other two. Can she have the work done for them and does it matter if the have offspring? Generally if they have a living spouse or 1st generation children permission is required. 2nd generation not so much.
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 My concern was more her one sister who has children. Contacting them would be problematic. We are not sure if the two remaining brothers are alive or dead although the likelihood is they have passed onWorthiness doesn't enter into it I thoughtWorthiness doesn't (see quote I gave). However, difficulty of contact doesn't either I believe. Permission needs to be granted for anyone not born over 110 years.
bluebell Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Generally if they have a living spouse or 1st generation children permission is required. 2nd generation not so much. I was under the impression that for a direct relative (like a sister or parent) that no permission is required because they are not any less directly related than a spouse and children.
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 I was under the impression that for a direct relative (like a sister or parent) that no permission is required because they are not any less directly related than a spouse and children.Nope, there is an order of precedence…I suspect to avoid hurt feelings by a sibling or parent doing something a spouse or children didn't want done.
thesometimesaint Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 I was under the impression that for a direct relative (like a sister or parent) that no permission is required because they are not any less directly related than a spouse and children. That is my understanding also. IE; My sister is not a member of the Church. If she were to proceed me into death. I don't believe I would be required to get permission, but out of deference to her family I would still seek it.
MiserereNobis Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Can temple rituals be performed for Mormons who received some ordinances but not all? Like someone who was baptized and confirmed but then stopped going to church. What about excommunicated Mormons or those who asked to be removed from the LDS church? Besides a family member saying no, is there any other reason a deceased person would not be allowed to receive proxy temple work?
bluebell Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Nope, there is an order of precedence…I suspect to avoid hurt feelings by a sibling or parent doing something a spouse or children didn't want done. I know my grandmother was able to do the work for her brother without getting permission from his sister. Maybe this is one of those gray areas where different people handle the issue differently? Yeesh, i just saw this mistake sorry. That's wife, not sister! Edited March 17, 2014 by bluebell
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) I think the rules have changed recently to be more strict due to some rather public criticism. The quote I gave is from the manual. Edited March 16, 2014 by calmoriah
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Can temple rituals be performed for Mormons who received some ordinances but not all? Like someone who was baptized and confirmed but then stopped going to church. What about excommunicated Mormons or those who asked to be removed from the LDS church? Besides a family member saying no, is there any other reason a deceased person would not be allowed to receive proxy temple work?Yes, all ordinances will eventually be done except possibly in the case of excommunication and there the family may petition it to be lifted. I only know of one rather public case of John D. Lee, who was one of the leaders of the MMM. I will see if I can find more info later... At the moment there are agreements in place to not perform ordinances for Holocaust victims if they are not direct relatives. They encourage people to do the work for their own lines, but work is also done after a certain date for nonrelatives though I don't know if this is done through church programs or can be done privately. There may be other agreements as well, I don't know. Edited March 16, 2014 by calmoriah
Duncan Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 my Mum did the work for her parents and all their relatives, she didn't ask her own sibling's permission, my Mum just did it.
jaxenro Posted March 16, 2014 Author Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Of her sisters children two I know are junkies and would trade permission for a dime bag. The third is whereabouts unknown. None would object (my opinion) unless there was money in it for them. The problem we have with her two brothers is similar both were diagnosed with AIDS related to sharing dirty needles many years ago. The life expectancy for a AIDS patient who boosts isn't long. Edited March 16, 2014 by jaxenro
thesometimesaint Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Can temple rituals be performed for Mormons who received some ordinances but not all? Like someone who was baptized and confirmed but then stopped going to church. What about excommunicated Mormons or those who asked to be removed from the LDS church? Besides a family member saying no, is there any other reason a deceased person would not be allowed to receive proxy temple work? Yes. No one is permanently exempted from having their Temple work done for them after they are dead. Whether they accept it or not is a different question.
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 I know my grandmother was able to do the work for her brother without getting permission from his sister. Maybe this is one of those gray areas where different people handle the issue differently?Just reread this…your grandmother has the same standing as her sister, right? If you have same standing, I don't think you have to get agreement, though I think it would be a good idea at least to try for a few years if there is a chance.
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 my Mum did the work for her parents and all their relatives, she didn't ask her own sibling's permission, my Mum just did it. She has the same standing as her siblings…now if she had done it for one of her parents without asking the other, that would have been against the rules.
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Of her sisters children two I know are junkies and would trade permission for a dime bag. The third is whereabouts unknown. None would object (my opinion) unless there was money in it for them. The problem we have with her two brothers is similar both were diagnosed with AIDS related to sharing dirty needles many years ago. The life expectancy for a AIDS patient who boosts isn't long.I gave you the standards, you can check with your local temple president or maybe bishop if you think an exception is merited. I doubt exception would be made for the unknown death date unless there is some hint of a death and not just an expectation of it. There might be an exception made with the children if they are not seen as competent, I am guessing. Edited March 16, 2014 by calmoriah
rpn Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 The way I look at this is whether it could cause someone else to be offended if they do not give permission, and that someone else has a higher claim of next of kin. Whether or not required by the church policies, it could be considered really rude if there are living parents, spouses and/or children and you don't seek their permission. (Yes, I understand now in a way I had never before understood, how important sibling relationships are. ---- My sister died at a relatively young age and most of her life was as my sister, yet as a sister, I was not included at all in the decisions about her funeral, and barely acknowledged at the services, like all those years as sisters didn't count because she had children and a husband ---- But that still doesn't trump who is considered next of kin.)
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 Can temple rituals be performed for Mormons who received some ordinances but not all? Like someone who was baptized and confirmed but then stopped going to church. What about excommunicated Mormons or those who asked to be removed from the LDS church? Besides a family member saying no, is there any other reason a deceased person would not be allowed to receive proxy temple work?Forgot to mention, if someone dies before the age of eight no work besides sealing to parents is done. Over eight but unmarried, baptism with confirmation, the endowment and in the case of men priesthood ordination (think it may count as part of the endowment).Conditions are stated here:https://www.lds.org/manual/members-guide-to-temple-and-family-history-work/chapter-7-providing-temple-ordinances?lang=engJason, the requirements for presuming death are on that page as well.
jaxenro Posted March 16, 2014 Author Posted March 16, 2014 "I doubt exception would be made for the unknown death date unless there is some hint of a death and not just an expectation of it. There might be an exception made with the children if they are not seen as competent, I am guessing." I wouldn't try for on an exception on unknown death date as they could easily be living we just don't kniw. Be a bit akward to do Temple work for a living person For the rest I will discuss with the Bishop for her or Temple President Thank you for your assistance
Calm Posted March 16, 2014 Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) "I doubt exception would be made for the unknown death date unless there is some hint of a death and not just an expectation of it. There might be an exception made with the children if they are not seen as competent, I am guessing."I wouldn't try for on an exception on unknown death date as they could easily be living we just don't kniw. Be a bit akward to do Temple work for a living personThe work was done for my husband's uncle who was legally declared dead I believe, but he may just be claimed to have been lost at sea. (the wait is ten years in that case, I believe). However, it is a very slight possibility that he might be sitting on some island somewhere laughing at the rest of the family for buying into the rat race. He would be in his late seventies, bet the hot sun would feel good on the old bones and his reputation would have him sipping the rum as well.None of the family who would recognise him travels any more so an embarrassing reunion won't be happening if they got it wrong.Just checked again and the bishop should be able to make the decision for you. Edited March 16, 2014 by calmoriah
Garden Girl Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 Each ward usually has a family history representative who is called to this position to answer questions such as posted here. Some wards such as mine are fortunate to have Family History Centers that have trained staff and keep regular weekly hours. I'm determined to outlive my inactive sister so that I can complete her temple ordinances (we are sealed to our parents... she needs her initiatories and endowment). I am counting on her, once she has passed through the veil, saying, Ohhhh, now I get it... and being thankful her little sis has done her work so that she has a choice as to how far she goes... GG
Calm Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 Each ward usually has a family history representative who is called to this position to answer questions such as posted here. And their name should be listed in the ward directory online if you don't know who they are and hopefully in the ward bulletin every Sunday (if not, why not suggest this to your bishop as it is very useful in my experience).
bluebell Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 Just reread this…your grandmother has the same standing as her sister, right? If you have same standing, I don't think you have to get agreement, though I think it would be a good idea at least to try for a few years if there is a chance. Yeah, sorry about that mistake. I actually meant she didn't need permission from his wife! It's been about 5 years i think since he died so maybe it is an old policy.
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