Question About Temple Work

[Calm]

Yeah, sorry about that mistake.

 

I actually meant she didn't need permission from his wife!

 

It's been about 5 years i think since he died so maybe it is an old policy.

I don't think they check to see if one has the right permissions, it is much of a honour system in that way and if someone doesn't know better, they may go ahead and do it without realizing they are going against policy and those who do know simply assume they got the permissions.

 

I hope it didn't cause any issues with his wife.

Edited March 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[cdowis]

Generally if they have a living spouse or 1st generation children permission is required. 2nd generation not so much.

 

Here is the temple name submission policy

 

To do ordinances for a deceased individual born in the last 110 years, you must either

be one of the closest living relatives, or you must obtain permission from the closest living relative. If you

are not a spouse, child, parent, or sibling of the deceased, please obtain permission from the closest living

relative before doing the ordinances. The closest living relatives are, in this order: an undivorced spouse

(the spouse to whom the individual was married when he or she died), an adult child, a parent, or a brother

or sister.

 

https://help.familysearch.org/kb/guides/en/ordinances.pdf

[mfbukowski]

Calmoriah posted the correct guidelines- those are the ones we should use.

 

The reality is that no one examines submitted names to see if they meet standards or not.  We are basically on the "honor system" to follow the guidelines, and will face the consequences, if any, if we break the rules.

 

If there is a good reason to submit work outside the guidelines and the spirit confirms it, I personally would not hesitate to break the guidelines.

 

Suppose one has a non-member sister who is quite interested in the gospel, and has expressed an interest in knowing more.  Suppose it has only been a few years since she passed away, and has living non-member children.

 

Suppose you feel strongly that her work should be done, because in a hundred years, it is your belief that no one will be around to do it.

 

On the other hand, if you do the work and her non-member family finds out, the family may be split because "Aunt Tessie made made mom a Mormon Cult member without her permission after she died". (Some people actually believe that kind of nonsense)

 

What do you do in a case like that?

 

Pray a lot.  One legitimate choice is to leave it in God's hands, and do nothing.  Faith not fear.

Edited March 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

Here is the temple name submission policy

 

To do ordinances for a deceased individual born in the last 110 years, you must either

be one of the closest living relatives, or you must obtain permission from the closest living relative. If you

are not a spouse, child, parent, or sibling of the deceased, please obtain permission from the closest living

relative before doing the ordinances. The closest living relatives are, in this order: an undivorced spouse

(the spouse to whom the individual was married when he or she died), an adult child, a parent, or a brother

or sister.

 

https://help.familysearch.org/kb/guides/en/ordinances.pdf

 

Yep- straight from the horses mouth.

[bluebell]

I don't think they check to see if one has the right permissions, it is much of a honour system in that way and if someone doesn't know better, they may go ahead and do it without realizing they are going against policy and those who do know simply assume they got the permissions.

 

I hope it didn't cause any issues with his wife.

 

My grandmother served in the temple when she did the work, and believed she was following all of the guidelines based on what people were telling her.  They certainly could have been wrong in what they were saying.

 

And no, it did not cause any issues with his wife.  

[omni]

"I doubt exception would be made for the unknown death date unless there is some hint of a death and not just an expectation of it. There might be an exception made with the children if they are not seen as competent, I am guessing."

I wouldn't try for on an exception on unknown death date as they could easily be living we just don't kniw. Be a bit akward to do Temple work for a living person

For the rest I will discuss with the Bishop for her or Temple President

Thank you for your assistance

Sorry for the derail, but if you'd care to share, if love to hear your story sometime. If I remember correctly, you've resigned your membership from the church, but you still seem to hold a great fondness for it and retain many of its conservative values. As you probably know, this is somewhat unique in the exmormon world and I find it intriguing.

[Freedom]

I was just speaking with a relative who had recently returned to the church and attended the temple. She is the only member on in her family until, or course, our family tree meets.  She was upset to find out that her mother's work had been done by someone who was not at all related to her. she went back 4 generations and back down and this person's name does not show up anywhere. 

 

she reserves the right to have all the work canceled, and this person (who completed the work within the past two years) would have their access to the church data base revoked. Of course, although she is upset, she feels it is perhaps like getting made because someone else cleaned her car without permission so she will throw dirt back on it so she can clean the car herself. Me view is, this person should be reported so that this violation does not occur again to someone else. 

 

Do the work for your own family line and get permission for those not in your line. There is plenty of work to do already, we do not need to violate any rules. 

[jaxenro]

"Sorry for the derail, but if you'd care to share, if love to hear your story sometime. If I remember correctly, you've resigned your membership from the church, but you still seem to hold a great fondness for it and retain many of its conservative values. As you probably know, this is somewhat unique in the exmormon world and I find it intriguing."

 

Sure I would be happy to answer any questions. I joined the church originally about (roughly) 1992 and left probably 6 or 7 years later after having attended the Temple and being seald to my wife and children.

 

Don't know if you remember the old "Heavenly Fathers Plan" vidoe that promised the church had the all the answers? After going to the Temple I felt a little underwhelmed, like the answers weren't really there. So I spent the following 16 years studying various philosophies and religions and ended up Deist. Recently I found the answers I was seeking in Jospeh Smiths writings. (As an aside during that time I resigned my membership as I felt being an Elder and not following the teachings would reflect badly on the Church, not that anyone or anything "turned me against" the Church. I always retained great respect for it as an institution)

 

My "conservatism", as you term it, comes from my Deist study and a close observation of the world around me. For instance without reference to the Diety I think pair bonding, or the natural joining of male and female as one body, was an essential building block of early human society and remains so today. For all those that claim homosexuality is "natural" I have yet to hear one biologist claim that the uses to homosexual males put various body parts to is what they were designed for by evolution (or God if you prefer). It seems like with abortion, where we (society) try to divorce the actul act, taking a living object and destroying it, from the term with homosexuality we (society)try to divorce the actual acts being performed (sodomy) from the relationship.

 

But ask away my life is open to questioning I take no offense

Edited March 17, 2014 by jaxenro

[bluebell]

I was just speaking with a relative who had recently returned to the church and attended the temple. She is the only member on in her family until, or course, our family tree meets.  She was upset to find out that her mother's work had been done by someone who was not at all related to her. she went back 4 generations and back down and this person's name does not show up anywhere. 

 

she reserves the right to have all the work canceled, and this person (who completed the work within the past two years) would have their access to the church data base revoked. Of course, although she is upset, she feels it is perhaps like getting made because someone else cleaned her car without permission so she will throw dirt back on it so she can clean the car herself. Me view is, this person should be reported so that this violation does not occur again to someone else. 

 

Do the work for your own family line and get permission for those not in your line. There is plenty of work to do already, we do not need to violate any rules. 

 

Did she check and see if the woman who did her mother's work is related by marriage or birth to a male relative of hers?

 

I'm wondering if maybe the wife of one of her relatives did the work, having no idea that she would eventually return to the church and want to do the work herself.

 

Edit to add-

 

Not that whoever did the work shouldn't have asked for her permission first, being the woman's daughter and all.  I'm just wondering how someone not related even found out about her mother and got all the info she needed to print up the cards.  You would think that either she has to be related somehow, or the mother's name was somehow released and put into  the general name list (which i didn't think they did for contemporary names, but maybe i'm confused on that issue).

Edited March 17, 2014 by bluebell

[omni]

"Sorry for the derail, but if you'd care to share, if love to hear your story sometime. If I remember correctly, you've resigned your membership from the church, but you still seem to hold a great fondness for it and retain many of its conservative values. As you probably know, this is somewhat unique in the exmormon world and I find it intriguing."

Sure I would be happy to answer any questions. I joined the church originally about (roughly) 1992 and left probably 6 or 7 years later after having attended the Temple and being seald to my wife and children.

Don't know if you remember the old "Heavenly Fathers Plan" vidoe that promised the church had the all the answers? After going to the Temple I felt a little underwhelmed, like the answers weren't really there. So I spent the following 16 years studying various philosophies and religions and ended up Deist. Recently I found the answers I was seeking in Jospeh Smiths writings. (As an aside during that time I resigned my membership as I felt being an Elder and not following the teachings would reflect badly on the Church, not that anyone or anything "turned me against" the Church. I always retained great respect for it as an institution)

My "conservatism", as you term it, comes from my Deist study and a close observation of the world around me. For instance without reference to the Diety I think pair bonding, or the natural joining of male and female as one body, was an essential building block of early human society and remains so today. For all those that claim homosexuality is "natural" I have yet to hear one biologist claim that the uses to homosexual males put various body parts to is what they were designed for by evolution (or God if you prefer). It seems like with abortion, where we (society) try to divorce the actul act, taking a living object and destroying it, from the term with homosexuality we (society)try to divorce the actual acts being performed (sodomy) from the relationship.

But ask away my life is open to questioning I take no offense

Thank you for sharing.

[Calm]

My grandmother served in the temple when she did the work, and believed she was following all of the guidelines based on what people were telling her.  They certainly could have been wrong in what they were saying.

 

And no, it did not cause any issues with his wife.  

We have a manual around here somewhere that is likely older than 5 years.  I will see if I can find it and check to see if it says the same thing.

[Calm]

I was just speaking with a relative who had recently returned to the church and attended the temple. She is the only member on in her family until, or course, our family tree meets.  She was upset to find out that her mother's work had been done by someone who was not at all related to her. she went back 4 generations and back down and this person's name does not show up anywhere. 

 

she reserves the right to have all the work canceled, and this person (who completed the work within the past two years) would have their access to the church data base revoked. Of course, although she is upset, she feels it is perhaps like getting made because someone else cleaned her car without permission so she will throw dirt back on it so she can clean the car herself. Me view is, this person should be reported so that this violation does not occur again to someone else. 

 

Do the work for your own family line and get permission for those not in your line. There is plenty of work to do already, we do not need to violate any rules. 

People who collect names to be done as a hobby or as if it is some form of missionary work where they don't have to risk being rejected and not because they are family bug me.  It is against policy now and shouldn't be done.

[Calm]

Did she check and see if the woman who did her mother's work is related by marriage or birth to a male relative of hers?

 

I'm wondering if maybe the wife of one of her relatives did the work, having no idea that she would eventually return to the church and want to do the work herself.

 

Edit to add-

 

Not that whoever did the work shouldn't have asked for her permission first, being the woman's daughter and all.  I'm just wondering how someone not related even found out about her mother and got all the info she needed to print up the cards.  You would think that either she has to be related somehow, or the mother's name was somehow released and put into  the general name list (which i didn't think they did for contemporary names, but maybe i'm confused on that issue).

My understanding is the information can be put online and may be done by anyone, but having the temple work done is supposed to be only by the family for the past 110 years.

[mfbukowski]

"Sorry for the derail, but if you'd care to share, if love to hear your story sometime. If I remember correctly, you've resigned your membership from the church, but you still seem to hold a great fondness for it and retain many of its conservative values. As you probably know, this is somewhat unique in the exmormon world and I find it intriguing."

 

Sure I would be happy to answer any questions. I joined the church originally about (roughly) 1992 and left probably 6 or 7 years later after having attended the Temple and being seald to my wife and children.

 

Don't know if you remember the old "Heavenly Fathers Plan" vidoe that promised the church had the all the answers? After going to the Temple I felt a little underwhelmed, like the answers weren't really there. So I spent the following 16 years studying various philosophies and religions and ended up Deist. Recently I found the answers I was seeking in Jospeh Smiths writings. (As an aside during that time I resigned my membership as I felt being an Elder and not following the teachings would reflect badly on the Church, not that anyone or anything "turned me against" the Church. I always retained great respect for it as an institution)

 

My "conservatism", as you term it, comes from my Deist study and a close observation of the world around me. For instance without reference to the Diety I think pair bonding, or the natural joining of male and female as one body, was an essential building block of early human society and remains so today. For all those that claim homosexuality is "natural" I have yet to hear one biologist claim that the uses to homosexual males put various body parts to is what they were designed for by evolution (or God if you prefer). It seems like with abortion, where we (society) try to divorce the actul act, taking a living object and destroying it, from the term with homosexuality we (society)try to divorce the actual acts being performed (sodomy) from the relationship.

 

But ask away my life is open to questioning I take no offense

Great story- we have a lot in common.

Not surprised you would find Joseph Smith after being a Deist- both sets of ideas are very locked into American culture and have similar notions about God and man in the universe- that's why so many of the founding Fathers were Deists.