Letter To A Ces Director

[rodheadlee]

I browsed through it.

 

Overall, I found it to be a sincere articulation of why a thoughtful, formerly faithful member decided that the church is just not worthy of the dedication it asks of its members. Granted, some people might not think that there is anything morally wrong with Joseph Smith secretly getting sealed to women and girls behind his wife’s back.  And we can disagree about whether Joseph Smith making up stories about things like Zelph, the Kinderhook Plates, and the papyrus has any bearing on whether he made up stories about the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon.  We can disagree about the significance of these issues and scores of others.  More fundamentally, we can disagree about whether any of this has any bearing on the basic truth claims of the church.  And we can even disagree about whether the literal truthfulness of the truth claims matter.

 

At the end of the day, I have quite a bit of empathy for members who find spirituality, meaning, and community in the Church.  And I have a glimmer of hope that a few members will have just a little bit of empathy for those of us who believe the church just isn’t worthy of religious devotion because the gap between the truth claims and the apparent reality is just too wide.

What a nice thoughtful post. I have empathy for folks like you. I just don't know what to do about it. I'm not a scholar, communication skills are way down on my list of skills. I can talk to a piece of wood, shape it, form it, make it into whatever I need it to be. But I'll never win a debate.

 

Anyway, I noticed you used the words apparent reality. That tells me you're open to that reality changing. What would it take to change that reality?   Do you still have a testimony of Jesus Christ, without the Church? Or are you leaning towards atheism? Would a revelation from God do it? Or perhaps a significant archeological find, like the large plates or, the Church repenting and apologizing for perceived wrongs????. I'm just trying to understand.

 

I have probably come off harsh in a few posts of mine because I am on the other side of the fence but it's a 3 way fence for me. I have had a testimony of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Church since 1982 but I have never held a Temple Recommend . So I am an outcast of a different kind and I resent people who have a TR and use it but have no testimony. It's my own fault, my sin is my own. But it breaks my heart to see so many folks not endure until the end with their testimonies. I firmly believe bad stuff is just around the corner and we're going to need all the help we can get from Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, The Church, the Priesthood, the RS,  the general members and all it entails to make it out of this mortal life with our goals (whatever yours may be) intact. I can't quote scripture but I believe a falling away by many members is one of the tells that the time is near.

 

So, how can I help?

[canard78]

Well if it weren't for him and guys like him (ones that were willing to question the beliefs of their religion, sometimes at the costs of their lives), there would not be an LDS church today. We look at those guys as reformers. When someone today questions the beliefs of the LDS church, they are told that they are bitter, or were offended, or lazy, or want to sin. These same accusations were probably leveled at the early reformers.

I think some people react like this because it's easier to assume there's a problem with the person and not with the church. Thankfully this is not the message from church leaders:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

[canard78]

Getting the Gospel Topics stuff out there for people to see is one of the top priorities…

Might it help if the church got involved in that? They could, for example, put the race and the priesthood essay on the front page of LDS.org (rather than the lightweight stuff that's usually there), The Ensign or even read it out at General Conference.

[Calm]

Well stated, readstoomuch (oxymoron that, one can never read too much ).

[Calm]

Might it help if the church got involved in that? They could, for example, put the race and the priesthood essay on the front page of LDS.org (rather than the lightweight stuff that's usually there), The Ensign or even read it out at General Conference.

I would not be the least bit surprised if they wanted to wait to really push it when they have more materials for people to work with so that once they visit, they stay. It is a huge project even with the eliminating of a good portion of topics that were talked about elsewhere like the Bible Dictionary. They are planning to update over 200 topics iirc and make them detailed and interactive and additional stuff that hasn't been done yet even for the recent articles if I understood the Elder discussing the project on the video.

I also think that they want members to be able to go to it in their own time so a slow introduction and build would help with that but guessing of course. It would be how I would do it.

Since it sounds like it may when more complete be taking the place of the Gospel Principles manual, wouldn't it be cool if it became the class 'manual' for a few years! But it will take awhile to get enough material for that.

[jkwilliams]

Interesting.  But I believe I"ve asked you before.  I was under the impression you have pretty much zero chance of heading on back.  Kinda suggests there isn't anything out there that would cause you to believe, no?  Some will leave and I simply can't judge them for that.  God has designs for them and I'm hopeful it works out for the best. 

 

At this point, no, I can't imagine going back. For two years after I reached the painful conclusion that the church wasn't what it claimed to be, I tried to make it work any way I could, and I left open the possibility that my conclusions could change. When we moved back to Utah about a year after that, I decided to go back to support my wife, even though by that time I held out little hope that the church was actually true. After a year of attending church and finding it spiritually draining and exhausting to "fake it till you make it," I gave up on it. So, no, I can't see myself going back, but there was about a 4-year period when I was still trying and some support might have helped.

[Analytics]

What a nice thoughtful post. I have empathy for folks like you. I just don't know what to do about it. I'm not a scholar, communication skills are way down on my list of skills. I can talk to a piece of wood, shape it, form it, make it into whatever I need it to be. But I'll never win a debate.

 

Anyway, I noticed you used the words apparent reality. That tells me you're open to that reality changing. What would it take to change that reality?   Do you still have a testimony of Jesus Christ, without the Church? Or are you leaning towards atheism? Would a revelation from God do it? Or perhaps a significant archeological find, like the large plates or, the Church repenting and apologizing for perceived wrongs????. I'm just trying to understand.

 

I have probably come off harsh in a few posts of mine because I am on the other side of the fence but it's a 3 way fence for me. I have had a testimony of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Church since 1982 but I have never held a Temple Recommend . So I am an outcast of a different kind and I resent people who have a TR and use it but have no testimony. It's my own fault, my sin is my own. But it breaks my heart to see so many folks not endure until the end with their testimonies. I firmly believe bad stuff is just around the corner and we're going to need all the help we can get from Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, The Church, the Priesthood, the RS,  the general members and all it entails to make it out of this mortal life with our goals (whatever yours may be) intact. I can't quote scripture but I believe a falling away by many members is one of the tells that the time is near.

 

So, how can I help?

 

Thanks for the kind response.  What would it take me to believe again?  I don’t know—that’s kind of like asking what it would take to glue a broken egg back together. 

 

I few weeks ago, I was talking to a never-mo and somehow the conversation about hell came up—he asked if I was worried about going to the Mormon hell because I left the faith.  I said I wasn’t worried, and we talked about the three degrees of glory.  I did my best to fairly describe the Celestial Kingdom: a place where you are with God and Jesus and where you are married, have lots of family reunions, have some church meetings, and are quite busy with the work and glory of growing in power and knowledge towards godhood and beyond.  I described the Telestial Kingdom as sitting in a smoky coffee house playing chess with guys like Karl Marx.

 

Anyway, I’m quite comfortable with where I am in life, and I wish you all the best on your path as well.

[canard78]

Since it sounds like it may when more complete be taking the place of the Gospel Principles manual, wouldn't it be cool if it became the class 'manual' for a few years! But it will take awhile to get enough material for that.

 

Wow now there's a thought, if it became the new gospel principles I'd be delighted.

 

I currently teach Gospel Principles in my branch. The manual allows for additional material, so I've been trying to make it a little more interesting (with LDS.org/ other General Authority resources only). 

 

I've posted a few of my lesson plans here: 

http://manyotherhands.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/A%20thoughtful%20gospel%20principles

 

Some might find them a little "universalistic" but my Branch President told me he's getting good feedback from the new/returning members and told me that whatever I'm doing to keep doing it.

[Anteojito]

At this point, no, I can't imagine going back. For two years after I reached the painful conclusion that the church wasn't what it claimed to be, I tried to make it work any way I could, and I left open the possibility that my conclusions could change. When we moved back to Utah about a year after that, I decided to go back to support my wife, even though by that time I held out little hope that the church was actually true. After a year of attending church and finding it spiritually draining and exhausting to "fake it till you make it," I gave up on it. So, no, I can't see myself going back, but there was about a 4-year period when I was still trying and some support might have helped.

The only way I would go back is if I had a visitation like the one Joseph Smith said he had. Anyone of the versions would be fine.

[jkwilliams]

The only way I would go back is if I had a visitation like the one Joseph Smith said he had. Anyone of the versions would be fine.

 

I'd just have to have a reason to believe, that's all.

[guerreiro9]

I'd just have to have a reason to believe, that's all.

Hello jk,

It has been my observation that the deciding factor in belief is a desire to believe.

If people want the Church to be true they find reasons to justify their desire. If people don't want the Church to be true they also find reasons to justify their desire.

I am yet to meet someone who wants the Church to be true, but decides to leave it anyway.

Perhaps you are the first, but I am guessing that at this point you don't want the Church to be true. No reason to believe will be forth coming if you don't want it to be.

-guerreiro9

[cinepro]

Hello jk,

It has been my observation that the deciding factor in belief is a desire to believe.

If people want the Church to be true they find reasons to justify their desire. If people don't want the Church to be true they also find reasons to justify their desire.

I am yet to meet someone who wants the Church to be true, but decides to leave it anyway.

Perhaps you are the first, but I am guessing that at this point you don't want the Church to be true. No reason to believe will be forth coming if you don't want it to be.

-guerreiro9

 

 

Most people I've known who left the Church for lack of belief wanted it to be true more than anything else they've ever wanted.  

Edited February 28, 2014 by cinepro

[guerreiro9]

Most people I've known who left the Church for lack of belief wanted it to be true more than anything else they've ever wanted.

We've obviously met different people. At some point though, they obviously felt that the reasons to stay in the Church were out weighed by the reasons to leave it. In essence their desire to leave was stronger than their desire to stay.

Usually you don't have reasons that out weigh the thing you want most otherwise it is not the thing you want most.

-guerreiro9

Edited to add:

I have known people who "wanted to want" the Church to be true before eventually leaving. There is a difference. There are alot of things that I wish I was more interested in, but I am not currently. We are capable of realizing that a desire in a particular area may be to our benefit without actually developing that desire.

Edited February 28, 2014 by guerreiro9

[jkwilliams]

Most people I've known who left the Church for lack of belief wanted it to be true more than anything else they've ever wanted.  

 

Yes. I would not have struggled for 4 years to make it work if I hadn't desperately wanted it to be true.

[Tacenda]

jkwilliams said:

"Yes, I would not have struggled for 4 years to make it work if I hadn't desperately wanted it to be true."

JK, going on 8 yrs. for me, it's definitely a "Ground Hog Day" feeling or straight out of an old "Twilight" episode. If I didn't want it to be true, wouldn't I have split by now?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Tacenda

[rodheadlee]

Thanks for the kind response.  What would it take me to believe again?  I don’t know—that’s kind of like asking what it would take to glue a broken egg back together. 

 

I few weeks ago, I was talking to a never-mo and somehow the conversation about hell came up—he asked if I was worried about going to the Mormon hell because I left the faith.  I said I wasn’t worried, and we talked about the three degrees of glory.  I did my best to fairly describe the Celestial Kingdom: a place where you are with God and Jesus and where you are married, have lots of family reunions, have some church meetings, and are quite busy with the work and glory of growing in power and knowledge towards godhood and beyond.  I described the Telestial Kingdom as sitting in a smoky coffee house playing chess with guys like Karl Marx.

 

Anyway, I’m quite comfortable with where I am in life, and I wish you all the best on your path as well.

Well as a member of the Celestial Kingdom you would have access to all the lessor kingdoms.  I like smoky coffee houses myself. Perhaps  some conversation with David Lewis and Don Logan on Ancient Polynesian Navigation methods.

Edited February 28, 2014 by rodheadlee

[omni]

Well as a member of the Celestial Kingdom you would have access to all the lessor kingdoms.  I like smoky coffee houses myself. Perhaps  some conversation with David Lewis and Don Logan on Ancient Polynesian Navigation methods.

 

Alright I've got to ask you, what is your profession that allows you to travel the world in your own personal boat?  I have to admit to being just a little bit jealous.  PM me if it's personal.

[DBMormon]

my 2 cents

 

The CES letter for me is a harder obstacle then we want to admit.  I also think we do a poor job of finding a middle where both sides can acknowledge possible evidence and views and still maintain different conclusions.  Most of these issues are not all or nothing and when both sides do that it makes both seem uncredible. 

 

Take for instance the geography issue.  Apologists simply try to destroy it saying the geographical names have similarities but since they are in the wrong places it must be false.  This ignores the idea that Joseph borrowed the names but didn't put them in the same geographic places so as to not be seen as a fraud.  This same concept applies to view of the hebres, in that we want to say since he didn't copy concepts exactly, then he didn't borrow at all.  I think that's bad reasoning and leaves the doubter feeling like we are nopt taking these criticisms seriously.  Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge where the critics have valid arguments and still profess that a faithful rendering is a better more reasonable way to make things line up.  For me it is anyway.  I am not drawn to arguments that are either/or  but rather sifting through details and seeing validity in both conclusions and then with both being valid, choosing faith.

[guerreiro9]

Yes. I would not have struggled for 4 years to make it work if I hadn't desperately wanted it to be true.

If you want it to be true then why leave?

Judging from your past comments you wanted the Church to be true, but only on your terms.

You did not want the Church to be true as it is, you wanted it to be true as you think it should be (or once thought it was).

I am not making a judgment call, I think there are many valid reasons to not want the Church to be true. It is disingenuous though to insinuate that you desperately wanted the Church to be true as it is, but were somehow forced to leave contrary to that desire.

-guerreiro9

[Analytics]

Well as a member of the Celestial Kingdom you would have access to all the lessor kingdoms.  I like smoky coffee houses myself. Perhaps  some conversation with David Lewis and Don Logan on Ancient Polynesian Navigation methods.

 

You'd be welcome at my game table any time.

[Anteojito]

my 2 cents

 

The CES letter for me is a harder obstacle then we want to admit.  I also think we do a poor job of finding a middle where both sides can acknowledge possible evidence and views and still maintain different conclusions.  Most of these issues are not all or nothing and when both sides do that it makes both seem uncredible. 

 

Take for instance the geography issue.  Apologists simply try to destroy it saying the geographical names have similarities but since they are in the wrong places it must be false.  This ignores the idea that Joseph borrowed the names but didn't put them in the same geographic places so as to not be seen as a fraud.  This same concept applies to view of the hebres, in that we want to say since he didn't copy concepts exactly, then he didn't borrow at all.  I think that's bad reasoning and leaves the doubter feeling like we are nopt taking these criticisms seriously.  Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge where the critics have valid arguments and still profess that a faithful rendering is a better more reasonable way to make things line up.  For me it is anyway.  I am not drawn to arguments that are either/or  but rather sifting through details and seeing validity in both conclusions and then with both being valid, choosing faith.

You know the whole problem with apologists in general is that they really do not have authority to speak on behalf of the church. Just because some guy with a PHD or whatever says that the papyri served a catalyst for Joseph Smith to translate the BOA doesn't mean that is what happened. Why should I listen to anything an un-called and un-set apart lay person says when it comes to the hard gospel questions? There are 15 guys who should be telling us the way it is and yet they all remain silent on the topics. Where are the Abinadis of our time? 

[guerreiro9]

jkwilliams said:

"Yes, I would not have struggled for 4 years to make it work if I hadn't desperately wanted it to be true."

JK, going on 8 yrs. for me, it's definitely a "Ground Hog Day" feeling or straight out of an old "Twilight" episode. If I didn't want it to be true, wouldn't I have split by now?

That's why you haven't split I'm guessing.

The question is though do you want it to be true as it is or do you only want it to be true as you think it should be?

If you only want it to be true as you think it should be then you will either eventually leave or will struggle with dissidence caused by this difference.

-guerreiro9

[Analytics]

If you want it to be true then why leave?

Judging from your past comments you wanted the Church to be true, but only on your terms.

You did not want the Church to be true as it is, you wanted it to be true as you think it should be (or once thought it was).

I am not making a judgment call, I think there are many valid reasons to not want the Church to be true. It is disingenuous though to insinuate that you desperately wanted the Church to be true as it is, but were somehow forced to leave contrary to that desire.

-guerreiro9

 

Back in the late 90’s, I heard several radio ads by a guy name Wade Cook, who preached a message that if you followed his investment strategy, you could become rich as a day trader in a short amount of time.  His story was that if you started off with $2,000, you could follow his can’t-lose investment advice, take both long and short positions on options, futures, forwards, and swaps, and in less than a year with practically no risk, turn the $2,000 into $20,000 to $40,000.  He said that once you had that much capital, you could quit your day job and be a full time day trader, which really entailed only a couple hours of work a day.  In a couple more years, you’d have $2 million saved up, which is the crossover of being officially rich—with $2 million, he claimed you can easily and passively make 10%, which constitutes $200k a year in passive income. 

 

Think about all the good you could do in the world with that much money and that much free time!

 

I really wanted Wade’s message to be true as-is.  But deep down, I knew it wasn’t—his message was obviously too good to be true, and time proved he had no idea what he was doing, and just had a lucky streak during a bull market.  Wanting something to be true doesn’t make it true, and isn’t justification in believing or pretending to believe something that deep down you don’t. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade_Cook

[Calm]

You know the whole problem with apologists in general is that they really do not have authority to speak on behalf of the church. Just because some guy with a PHD or whatever says that the papyri served a catalyst for Joseph Smith to translate the BOA doesn't mean that is what happened. Why should I listen to anything an un-called and un-set apart lay person says when it comes to the hard gospel questions? There are 15 guys who should be telling us the way it is and yet they all remain silent on the topics. Where are the Abinadis of our time?

There is a lot of apologetic material out there that doesn't require new revelation, but does need historical details and locating the relevant doctrine for those in need.

Some controversies will need to wait for revelation, but even there one can see obvious gradations between trivial and life changing implications. I don't see the 15 having much to say on the first. And IMO I believe that God allows us to struggle on our own for quite sometime before revealing the answer...perhaps to make clear what man made confusion looks like in contrast to God revealed truth so that we will someday be not so fond of our own mind creations and be more willing to set it aside when gifted with God's words or Spirit.

Edited February 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[guerreiro9]

Wanting something to be true doesn’t make it true, and isn’t justification in believing or pretending to believe something that deep down you don’t.

Wanting something to be true does not make anything more true than wanting something to be false makes it untrue. I never said it did. My desire for the LDS church to be true has no effect on its truth claims.

It does however affect my personal belief, which is what I stated. Not wanting something to be true impedes belief in that something, regardless of whether that something is true or not.

There aren't any truth claims the Church makes that can be proven in the same manner as the financial example you gave. There are very few promises given by the Church that pertain to the here and now.

If I get to the other side and find out my belief is misplaced then I suppose I will deal with it at that point. Until then I'll enjoy the temporal aspects of being a member of the Church. I live a better life than most people who have ever walked this Earth. Almost none of it is of my doing, but is a reflection of the hard work and values of the people who built the community I live in, most of whom were and are LDS. Maybe their belief is mistaken, but after seeing many parts of this world most people can only dream that their ancestors made the same mistake.

-guerreiro9