Does The Supernatural Exist?

[Gray]

It's entirely possible that the mechanism of evolution was designed and implemented by an intelligent being. What we know as the Intelligent Design theory isn't so much of a theory as an attempt to deny that evolutionary processes are at work and have left to the speciation we see around us.

 

I'm still trying to sort out what I think the role of God might be in all that. I don't tend to think of God as a creator, but that doesn't mean God isn't one. I tend to see God in sacred experiences and in truth, rather than thinking of God as some kind individual ego outside of everything else who goes around making plans or creating things. On the other hand, my most powerful spiritual experiences are when I am in nature. 

 

God is very mysterious. I'm not sure we'll ever figure it out.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Gray

[thesometimesaint]

So now the earth was created in 7000 years?

That is not a mainstream lds belief.

 

JS believed the earth to be 2.5 billion years old. His way of determining that was off, but in terms of accuracy alone he was far closer than Archbishop Ussher.

[The Nehor]

I'm still trying to sort out what I think the role of God might be in all that. I don't tend to think of God as a creator, but that doesn't mean God isn't one. I tend to see God in sacred experiences and in truth, rather than thinking of God as some kind individual ego outside of everything else who goes around making plans or creating things. 

 

God is very mysterious. I'm not sure we'll ever figure it out.

I figure I will puzzle out the mystery once I become God. Then all WILL BOW BEFORE ME!!!!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

[thesometimesaint]

I'm still trying to sort out what I think the role of God might be in all that. I don't tend to think of God as a creator, but that doesn't mean God isn't one. I tend to see God in sacred experiences and in truth, rather than thinking of God as some kind individual ego outside of everything else who goes around making plans or creating things. 

 

God is very mysterious. I'm not sure we'll ever figure it out.

 

That really isn't supportable by the Scriptures.

 

This is life eternal that ye may KNOW the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent.

[Gray]

I figure I will puzzle out the mystery once I become God. Then all WILL BOW BEFORE ME!!!!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

 

Why wait? Start gathering worshipers now. 

 

Kali Ma Shakti de!

[Gray]

That really isn't supportable by the Scriptures.

 

This is life eternal that ye may KNOW the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent.

 

While there are many ways to interpret that, I take it to mean if you wish to know God, you must learn to love. 

 

Anything much further than that I think we're fooling ourselves if we think we've got God figured out. 

Edited February 27, 2014 by Gray

[pogi]

Gravity didn't directly give rise to intelligence, it gave rise to planets and stars.

 

If you're looking for the origin of biological intelligence, try chemistry. 

 

Neither is chemistry the "origin" of biological intelligence.  Unless you consider intelligence a bunch of random chemical reactions where we are simply reactive and not proactive beings in our environment. 

[Gray]

Neither is chemistry the "origin" of biological intelligence.  Unless you consider intelligence a bunch of random chemical reactions where we are simply reactive and not proactive beings in our environment. 

 

Any reductive restatement is bound to sound absurd. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Current_models

[Ahab]

IMO, "outside of science" means that you can't prove or disprove the existence of God using the scientific method. That would seem to be quite obvious. That is why science is agnostic about God: it doesn't concern itself with the existence of God or who or what caused existence in the first place. It limits itself to what we can observe and experiment with. Rather than see this as arrogant or anti-God, it's better to say that science understands its limitations and doesn't presume to venture into areas it cannot deal with, such as the existence of God.

The problem with that kind of thinking is that science can deal with God, though. God can be observed and studied and experimented on and dissected and hung up on a cross or given a place of high honor amongst others who are by nature God too, just as all of us already are.

I think some of you are just hell bent on denying what is obvious, and if you really want to classify God as supernatural then you might as well consider all of us to be supernatural too. But then you'd have to redefine what natural is too wouldn't you.

[Ahab]

Why wait? Start gathering worshipers now.

Kali Ma Shakti de!

He already has a host of fans, and he is already the same kind of being God is. And so are you. And so am I. Thus by the usually accepted definition of supernatural all of us are already supernatural too. Although I still say we are also all natural.

[The Nehor]

I figure I will puzzle out the mystery once I become God. Then all WILL BOW BEFORE ME!!!!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

Can't. Have to hide my evil side until I am exalted otherwise I may miss out on the exalting part. This plan cannot fail.

[thesometimesaint]

The problem with that kind of thinking is that science can deal with God, though. God can be observed and studied and experimented on and dissected and hung up on a cross or given a place of high honor amongst others who are by nature God too, just as all of us already are.

I think some of you are just hell bent on denying what is obvious, and if you really want to classify God as supernatural then you might as well consider all of us to be supernatural too. But then you'd have to redefine what natural is too wouldn't you.

 

Science can't deal with God. Whether there is or isn't a God it is irrelevant to science. As far a science is concerned death is final. end of story. The rest is a religious belief, albeit one that many scientist are happy to believe in.

 

Supernatural means pertaining to God. Our Spirit is supernatural. Natural means existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. In LDS belief God is a man albeit a omnipotent one. That very quality put him outside the realm of scientific detection, observation, and measurement(NON Science).

[JLHPROF]

So now the earth was created in 7000 years?

That is not a mainstream lds belief.

 

Yet it has basis in mainstream LDS teachings.  You can't get more mainstream than the scriptures.  The question as always is do we take them at their word.

 

EARTH MADE IN 7 "DAYS"

Moses 3:2-3 - And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good;  And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

 

HOW GOD MEASURES "A DAY"

Abraham 3:4 - And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. 

(See also II Pet 3:8 & D&C 130:4)

 

THE EARTH WILL EXIST TEMPORALLY FOR 7000 YEARS

D&C 77:6 - Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

 

TO SUMMARIZE

D&C77:12- A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.

 

All scriptural and so therefore "mainstream".

[jkwilliams]

The problem with that kind of thinking is that science can deal with God, though. God can be observed and studied and experimented on and dissected and hung up on a cross or given a place of high honor amongst others who are by nature God too, just as all of us already are.

I think some of you are just hell bent on denying what is obvious, and if you really want to classify God as supernatural then you might as well consider all of us to be supernatural too. But then you'd have to redefine what natural is too wouldn't you.

 

I'm not hell-bent on anything, just expressing my opinion. I don't believe science is the right venue for discussing God. Sue me.

[thesometimesaint]

JS believed the earth to be 2.5 billion years old.

 

Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that

Jesus Christ

, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity; and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years…

So said William W. Phelps, the Prophet Joseph’s scribe, in a letter to the Prophet’s brother, William Smith, in 1844. Shortly thereafter, the Church’s official periodical published Phelps’ statement, with one small editorial addition:

… eternity, agreeably to the records

found

in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system

(not the world)

almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years…

Times & Seasons

5 no. 24 (1 Jan. 1844), 758 (emphasis added).

[JLHPROF]

 

JS believed the earth to be 2.5 billion years old.

 

Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that

Jesus Christ

, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity; and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years…

So said William W. Phelps, the Prophet Joseph’s scribe, in a letter to the Prophet’s brother, William Smith, in 1844. Shortly thereafter, the Church’s official periodical published Phelps’ statement, with one small editorial addition:

… eternity, agreeably to the records

found

in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system

(not the world)

almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years…

Times & Seasons

5 no. 24 (1 Jan. 1844), 758 (emphasis added).

 

 

I fail to see where Joseph said the earth/world was 2.5 billion years old.  I was under the impression he was saying that the length of an eternity was 2.5 billion years (aka "from eternity to eternity").  Some have interpeted this to mean the length of "a creation" while other more creative minds have interpreted to to be the length of time it takes Kolob to complete one orbit of whatever it orbits, and yet others have said it is the length of time it takes the galaxy to rotate....

 

All strange but interesting ideas, but I think the 2.5 billion years quote refers to eternity, not to the earth.

[Bikeemikey]

Yet it has basis in mainstream LDS teachings.  You can't get more mainstream than the scriptures.  The question as always is do we take them at their word.

 

EARTH MADE IN 7 "DAYS"

Moses 3:2-3 - And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good;  And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

 

HOW GOD MEASURES "A DAY"

Abraham 3:4 - And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. 

(See also II Pet 3:8 & D&C 130:4)

 

THE EARTH WILL EXIST TEMPORALLY FOR 7000 YEARS

D&C 77:6 - Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

 

TO SUMMARIZE

D&C77:12- A. We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things, and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the preparing of the way before the time of his coming.

 

All scriptural and so therefore "mainstream".

 

Does Not change the fact that when I was teaching Sunday school and put the three columns on the board showing the three main interpretations of the creative time frame (7 days, 7000 years, 7 unknow time periods) our had 2 in the 7 day column, 3 in the 7000 year column and 39 in the 7 unknown time period column.

[Bikeemikey]

I fail to see where Joseph said the earth/world was 2.5 billion years old.  I was under the impression he was saying that the length of an eternity was 2.5 billion years (aka "from eternity to eternity").  Some have interpeted this to mean the length of "a creation" while other more creative minds have interpreted to to be the length of time it takes Kolob to complete one orbit of whatever it orbits, and yet others have said it is the length of time it takes the galaxy to rotate....

 

All strange but interesting ideas, but I think the 2.5 billion years quote refers to eternity, not to the earth.

 

Thats fine. Youre welcome to that interpretation.

 

Just know you are in a minority of church members who believe in a 7 day/7000 year creation cycle.

[Ahab]

Science can't deal with God. Whether there is or isn't a God it is irrelevant to science. As far a science is concerned death is final. end of story. The rest is a religious belief, albeit one that many scientist are happy to believe in.

Supernatural means pertaining to God. Our Spirit is supernatural. Natural means existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. In LDS belief God is a man albeit a omnipotent one. That very quality put him outside the realm of scientific detection, observation, and measurement(NON Science).

You're not adding anything to the conversation that I haven't already refuted and I imagine you think you've refuted what I've had to say too, so since I don't think you are open to teceiving what I have to tell you I'm goung to just end our conversation in this thread at this point.

No hard feelings and I look forward to talking to you again later, probably on another issue.

[JLHPROF]

Thats fine. Youre welcome to that interpretation.

 

Just know you are in a minority of church members who believe in a 7 day/7000 year creation cycle.

 

I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. - Joseph Smith TPJS p.332

 

I have no absolutely no issue being in the minority (although I never stated my personal beliefs, just that the 7000 year belief really is based in mainstream doctrine). 

[3DOP]

It's all blather all the way down. All we have are sentences which are always blather to someone.

 

I think everyone needs to read and understand Wittgenstein.  All language is pretty limited.

So much for your trap.

 

Forgive me if I can't quite picture you saying..."Absolutely", in reference to LDS "blather". The next time I see it will be the first. Since verbal communication is virtually meaningless according to your here today, gone tomorrow gurus, it wouldn't hurt the appearance of your integrity to say so once in a while with regard to the "blather" of a few more of your own more often.

 

Frankly, its okay. You and your friends can't help it. You think we are beknightedly ridiculous and it comes out when you are unguarded. Aquinas was brilliant you say...a thousand years ago. Thanks for the "compIiment". Its nice, but the sting is still there. I can't make myself think LDS thought is stupid, but since it seems that a prerequisite to being LDS is to think Catholicism is outdated nonsense, I am forever disqualified from considering the Book of Mormon, or your faith. If I doubted every article of the Apostles Creed I could not believe what you guys believe, in your ignorant inexperience, about my faith.

[jkwilliams]

It's all blather all the way down. All we have are sentences which are always blather to someone.

 

I think everyone needs to read and understand Wittgenstein.  All language is pretty limited.

So much for your trap.

 

Asking for a little respect for others' beliefs isn't a trap. If you can't see that making derogatory statements about other people's faith is wrong, there's not much I can say to you.

 

I'll stop being a board nanny, but I hope you haven't done too much damage to the church's reputation with non-LDS posters here, though it's probably too late.

Edited February 28, 2014 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

Forgive me if I can't quite picture you saying..."Absolutely", in reference to LDS "blather". The next time I see it will be the first. Since verbal communication is virtually meaningless according to your here today, gone tomorrow gurus, it wouldn't hurt the appearance of your integrity to say so once in a while with regard to the "blather" of a few more of your own more often.

 

Frankly, its okay. You and your friends can't help it. You think we are beknightedly ridiculous and it comes out when you are unguarded. Aquinas was brilliant you say...a thousand years ago. Thanks for the "compIiment". Its nice, but the sting is still there. I can't make myself think LDS thought is stupid, but since it seems that a prerequisite to being LDS is to think Catholicism is outdated nonsense, I am forever disqualified from considering the Book of Mormon, or your faith. If I doubted every article of the Apostles Creed I could not believe what you guys believe, in your ignorant inexperience, about my faith.

 

Please don't think that their disrespect for your beliefs is representative of Mormon thought. I have not encountered this kind of stuff anywhere else in the church. I don't know why it's popping up here, but I hope you understand these opinions are outliers.

[jkwilliams]

It's all blather all the way down. All we have are sentences which are always blather to someone.

 

I think everyone needs to read and understand Wittgenstein.  All language is pretty limited.

So much for your trap.

 

Invoking Wittgenstein to justify derogatory statements about other people's beliefs just makes you look arrogant and foolish. I hope you'll reconsider what you're doing to good people like 3DOP.

[Robert F. Smith]

...................................................   

(Henry) Eyring, LDS, did not need to invoke God to explain theoretical chemistry. Philo Farnsworth - inventor of the television. Marvin Harris - inventor of the transistor radio. Alan Ashton - inventor of the modern word processor. Nolan Bushnell - Father of Video Games; inventor of "Pong". Harvey Fletcher - inventor of the hearing aid, stereophonic sound, the audiometer, more than 20 other inventions. William Clayton - inventor of the odometer. Jonathan Browning - revolutionary gunsmith; inventor of the repeating rifle. John Moses Browning - revolutionary gunsmith; inventor of the automatic shotgun and many other developments. Lester Wire - inventor of the electric traffic light. Alvino Rey - inventor of the electric guitar. Thomas Stockham - father of digital sound recording (CDs, DVDs). Paul Boyer - received Nobel Prize for describing the mechanism of ATP synthesis. All LDS. All scientist or used science in their work. Not one felt the need to invoke God in their work.

A nice listing, although Alan Ashton (current Provo Temple President) was not the inventor of the modern word processor.  I was already using WordStar software in 1983 (it could do footnotes), and that was developed by Rob Barnaby.  Alan Ashton (a BYU professor) and his student Bruce Bastian were the inventors of WordPerfect, which was a better system and later became dominant.