Hagoth - Where Did His Ships Go?

[hagoth7]

I'm just curious, what's the general consensus among LDS about Hagoth?  Do others believe as Cinepro suggests here that he may have landed somewhere else and joined in with the natives?  Do some believe this was in America or that he may have populated an island?  I guess it depends on where the "narrow neck" of land was mentioned in Alma.

 

 

His largest ship sailed into the west sea, which is arguably the Gulf of Mexico. And Alma 63 says it sailed northward, which leaves North America or Europe.  I have reason to believe Europe is where that ship landed.

 

Others of his ships could have sailed in other directions. Thoughts?

Edited February 20, 2014 by hagoth7

[Tiki]

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_geography_model

Hagoth Shipping occurred in the Pacific Ocean. And as you can see in the attached graphic from the Wikipedia site, due to the LGT's 500 x 200 mile restricted area, Hagoth Shipping made right angles and returned to port upon reaching the 500 mile limit.

So apparently, there was no attempt by Hagoth to sail beyond Mesoamerica, according to the LGT.

This of course makes perfect sense as everyone knows that the LGT is the correct geography model.

Of course, this doesn't explain why Mormon's armies could not have sailed out into the ocean landed behind the Lamanites then attacked them from the rear. But then again, since the Nephites, according to the LGT, didn't leave the 500 x 200 mile area for some 1,000 years, it's obvious the Nephites were idiots, according to the LGT.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Tiki

[hagoth7]

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_geography_model

Hagoth Shipping occurred in the Pacific Ocean. And as you can see in the attached graphic from the Wikipedia site, due to the LGT's 500 x 200 mile restricted area, Hagoth Shipping made right angles and returned to port upon reaching the 500 mile limit.

So apparently, there was no attempt by Hagoth to sail beyond Mesoamerica, according to the LGT.

The Pacific is the south sea. But Hagoth sailed into the west sea, according to Alma 63. There is a mismatch here.

 

Also, the largest ship took a full year to return the first time. A 1000-mile journey only takes a fraction of a year. To consume a full year, IMHO they sailed further than the 500 mile limit on your map.

[rodheadlee]

The Pacific is the south sea. But Hagoth sailed into the west sea, according to Alma 63. There is a mismatch here.

 

Also, the largest ship took a full year to return the first time. A 1000-mile journey only takes a fraction of a year. To consume a full year, IMHO they sailed further than the 500 mile limit on your map.

Yep pretty much any old scow can knock out 100 miles per day.

[strappinglad]

hagoth7 , thou shalt not be sarcasm impaired. There is a reason tiki's avatar wears a mask.

As for the OP. I doubt that Hagoth was the only ship builder in the history of the Nephites. There were cities on the ocean according to the text. Where there are cities on the ocean there are most likely ports also. Find the port cities and then there will be a list of probable starting points. Wind and current charts could then give an idea which way Hagoth likely sailed. Of course that assumes no engine driven craft.

[hagoth7]

hagoth7 , thou shalt not be sarcasm impaired. There is a reason tiki's avatar wears a mask.

As for the OP. I doubt that Hagoth was the only ship builder in the history of the Nephites. There were cities on the ocean according to the text. Where there are cities on the ocean there are most likely ports also. Find the port cities and then there will be a list of probable starting points. Wind and current charts could then give an idea which way Hagoth likely sailed. Of course that assumes no engine driven craft.

Gulf Stream and prevailing winds showing where an object dropped in the gulf of mexico would be a few weeks later even without sails.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s9a55o23vkgc6v6/OceanTools.gif

[Duncan]

if they ended up in Europe then my guess is Pawn Stars UK bought and later sold them for scrap

[strappinglad]

Gulf Stream and prevailing winds showing where an object dropped in the gulf of mexico would be a few weeks later even without sails.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s9a55o23vkgc6v6/OceanTools.gif

True enough. I, however, think that it would be difficult to convince dozens( hundreds?) of people to enter a boat and then just follow the winds and waves to some unknown far off place. They must trust in the reputation of the sailors who have had years of experience and an ability to navigate . I defer to rodheadlee for info on what it takes to successfully travel the " great waters".

[hagoth7]

True enough. I, however, think that it would be difficult to convince dozens( hundreds?) of people to enter a boat and then just follow the winds and waves to some unknown far off place. They must trust in the reputation of the sailors who have had years of experience and an ability to navigate . I defer to rodheadlee for info on what it takes to successfully travel the " great waters".

Keep in mind that they had just ended a war that nearly pushed their people into the sea. And those who saved them from ruin, Moroni and Helaman were now dead. They had the prophecies of Nephi that they would be eventually be destroyed if they stayed, so why not leave?  Many went into the land northward at this same juncture. It was a time for exodus.

 

I too look forward to what rod has to say about traveling the deep.

[Rob Osborn]

Hagoth originally was taking people into North America from South America. The proposition of walking the isthmus of Panama was too much and so bordering a ship to bypass the isthmus was well worth it. Hagoth thus sailed up into the Gulf Of California area and they became known as what we refer to them as "Pueblo" Indians.

[thesometimesaint]

They sailed away into the far north pole, found a large room there with a staircase. Thus joined the lost tribes 10 tribes living in our hollow earth.

[wenglund]

Shouldn't there be language artifacts marking the migration like bread crumbs.

 

Thanks -Wade Englund-

[Anteojito]

Hagoth originally was taking people into North America from South America. The proposition of walking the isthmus of Panama was too much and so bordering a ship to bypass the isthmus was well worth it. Hagoth thus sailed up into the Gulf Of California area and they became known as what we refer to them as "Pueblo" Indians.

Hagoth was a Nephite. The Pueblo Indians would have been Lamanites right?

[Anteojito]

I had a friend from New Zealand and she told me that the common belief among many of the LDS Maoris was that they were descendants of team Hagoth. 

[Anijen]

The Pacific can be both the South Sea and West Sea depending on where one is located. 

 

Nobody knows with any degree of certainty of where Hagoth sailed to. So I disagree with Rob Osborn on his statement written in the form of fact that they brought people up from SA to NA. Could it have happened? Yes, I guess so however, Rob can no way prove his idea and should stay away from posting in absolutes.

 

I also refer to Rods skills and experience as a sailor he probably knows more about that than anybody ever on this board. He has not just studied it, but lived it.

 

Okay, now to my personal opinion, here goes... Hagoth was a curious man. I doubt Hagoth just went North, but as a curious man he probably desired to sail everywhere. Hagoths wanderlust most likely was not satisfied with one destination. It is my opinion that after the initial trip North another trip was deep into the Pacific. I do believe that New Zealand could have been one of his stops. Perhaps the Marshall Islands (my mission) or Truck, Gilbert, Ponepe, Palau, Fiji etc. etc.  so many islands, not enough time.

 

Hopefully one day I can meet Rod and take a few months of my life sailing. It seems to me what a wonderful therapeutic, hobby that would be.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Anijen

[The Nehor]

They went north and were sucked into a whirlpool. Then they found themselves under the ice of the North Pole living with the Lost Ten Tribes.

[Robert F. Smith]

I had a friend from New Zealand and she told me that the common belief among many of the LDS Maoris was that they were descendants of team Hagoth. 

Since both the Chumash of the south-central California coast, and the Kwakiutl along the Canadian Coast share a good deal of culture in common with the Maori, that is entirely possible.  There was more than one voyage.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_navigation ,

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm .

[Robert F. Smith]

The Pacific can be both the South Sea and West Sea depending on where one is located. 

 

Nobody knows with any degree of certainty of where Hagoth sailed to. So I disagree with Rob Osborn on his statement written in the form of fact that they brought people up from SA to NA. Could it have happened? Yes, I guess so however, Rob can no way prove his idea and should stay away from posting in absolutes.

 

I also refer to Rods skills and experience as a sailor he probably knows more about that than anybody ever on this board. He has not just studied it, but lived it.

 

Okay, now to my personal opinion, here goes... Hagoth was a curious man. I doubt Hagoth just went North, but as a curious man he probably desired to sail everywhere. Hagoths wanderlust most likely was not satisfied with one destination. It is my opinion that after the initial trip North another trip was deep into the Pacific. I do believe that New Zealand could have been one of his stops. Perhaps the Marshall Islands (my mission) or Truck, Gilbert, Ponepe, Palau, Fiji etc. etc.  so many islands, not enough time.

 

Hopefully one day I can meet Rod and take a few months of my life sailing. It seems to me what a wonderful therapeutic, hobby that would be.

How romantic!

Actually, all instances of "curious" in the Book of Mormon have one context and basic old English meaning, "skilled, intricate, subtle" (I Ne 16:10, 18:1, Alma 37:39, 63:5, Hel 6:11, Eth 10:27).  Check the OED or the 1828 Webster's.

[rodheadlee]

I'll post later when I have time. I love talking about it.

[bjw]

I'll post later when I have time. I love talking about it.

me too.  Thanks everyone for starting a separate thread to answer my question.  I'm not feeling too well tonight but I look forward to looking this over tomorrow.  The map looks interesting.

[livy111us]

I think they landed, in part, in what is now USA and there is lots of evidence to support that theory  http://www.bmaf.org/articles/mesoamerican_travels_northward__livingston

[Robert F. Smith]

I think they landed, in part, in what is now USA and there is lots of evidence to support that theory  http://www.bmaf.org/articles/mesoamerican_travels_northward__livingston

I enjoyed reading your paper, Tyler, though I would recommend more restraint in conclusions and acceptance of some sources.

 

While it is true that there are specific examples of complete culture transfer northward, as for example with the Maya-speaking people of the Huasteca of north coastal Mexico (who are already separated from southern Maya by 100 BC), and the complete adoption of Classic Mesoamerican culture by the Hohokam of Arizona (and perhaps by the Pueblo Indians), it is far less clear that such complete cultural transfers occurred farther north, or that large-scale migrations are key to what can more easily be explained by trade networks in which most of what was passed on (and gotten in exchange) involved a few traders and some degree of genetic exchange -- which can now be detected in ancient skeletal remains.  Thus, it may be going much too far to suggest that Mesoamericans "occupied" the Great Lakes region, even though the Great Lakes had rich resources in copper to trade downriver.

 

Such travel should not be depicted as easy in any case, even if one asserts travel by sea-going craft, or going upriver by canoe on the Mississippi.  Amerinds certainly used such craft, and there was even sea-going communication between South America and Mexico in pre-Columbian times.

 

We see some of the same features of trade on the well-known Silk Road from Europe to Asia, with some archaic European genes found in groups along the route in China.  We are not surprised to find a Jesuit or two advising the Emperor of China at that early date, but we do not find migratory hordes, unless we want to speak of the conquering Mongols -- for which there is an abundance of evidence.

[livy111us]

I enjoyed reading your paper, Tyler, though I would recommend more restraint in conclusions and acceptance of some sources.

 

While it is true that there are specific examples of complete culture transfer northward, as for example with the Maya-speaking people of the Huasteca of north coastal Mexico (who are already separated from southern Maya by 100 BC), and the complete adoption of Classic Mesoamerican culture by the Hohokam of Arizona (and perhaps by the Pueblo Indians), it is far less clear that such complete cultural transfers occurred farther north, or that large-scale migrations are key to what can more easily be explained by trade networks in which most of what was passed on (and gotten in exchange) involved a few traders and some degree of genetic exchange -- which can now be detected in ancient skeletal remains.  Thus, it may be going much too far to suggest that Mesoamericans "occupied" the Great Lakes region, even though the Great Lakes had rich resources in copper to trade downriver.

 

Such travel should not be depicted as easy in any case, even if one asserts travel by sea-going craft, or going upriver by canoe on the Mississippi.  Amerinds certainly used such craft, and there was even sea-going communication between South America and Mexico in pre-Columbian times.

 

We see some of the same features of trade on the well-known Silk Road from Europe to Asia, with some archaic European genes found in groups along the route in China.  We are not surprised to find a Jesuit or two advising the Emperor of China at that early date, but we do not find migratory hordes, unless we want to speak of the conquering Mongols -- for which there is an abundance of evidence.

 

Agreed. I tried to distinguish the fact that some of the items listed were more of the result from tradesman from Mesoamerican who made it that far North as opposed to stronger evidence of Mesoamericans living, inter-breeding, and culturally impacting other peoples "Northward." 

[Tiki]

The Pacific is the south sea. But Hagoth sailed into the west sea, according to Alma 63. There is a mismatch here.

 

Also, the largest ship took a full year to return the first time. A 1000-mile journey only takes a fraction of a year. To consume a full year, IMHO they sailed further than the 500 mile limit on your map.

 

It's not my map! LOL! It's the LGT map.

Apparently, no one on this discussion here has yet agreed with it.

[Freedom]

How about this: we have no idea and there is no point in speculating because the text does not provide enough information.