hagoth7 Posted February 23, 2014 Author Posted February 23, 2014 How about this: we have no idea and there is no point in speculating because the text does not provide enough information. How about this:3 Nephi 15 16 This much did the Father acommand me, that I should tell unto them: 17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one ashepherd. 18 And now, because of astiffneckedness and bunbelief they cunderstood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the dFather concerning this thing unto them. 19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were aseparated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. 20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And this:3 Nephi 171 Behold, now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he looked round about again on the multitude, and he said unto them: Behold, my atime is at hand. 2 I aperceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot bunderstand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time. 3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and aponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and bprepare your minds for the cmorrow, and I come unto you again. 4 But now I ago unto the Father, and also to bshow myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not clost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them. 2
ERayR Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 How about this:3 Nephi 15 16 This much did the Father acommand me, that I should tell unto them: 17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one ashepherd. 18 And now, because of astiffneckedness and bunbelief they cunderstood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the dFather concerning this thing unto them. 19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were aseparated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. 20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And this:3 Nephi 171 Behold, now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he looked round about again on the multitude, and he said unto them: Behold, my atime is at hand. 2 I aperceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot bunderstand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time. 3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and aponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and bprepare your minds for the cmorrow, and I come unto you again. 4 But now I ago unto the Father, and also to bshow myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not clost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them. That pondering thing leads to some interesting things. 1
rodheadlee Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 Arggh! I lost my whole long post. Be patient. I'll try again.
Garden Girl Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 I'll post later when I have time. I love talking about it. Hello Rod...I just finished sending you a PM about a couple in my ward who are planning a two-year excursion aboard their sailboat... They will probably be emailing you... wonderful couple... true lovers of the sea and sailing... glad you have access to the Board so hope you get my PM... from the beach... GG
rodheadlee Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 Hello Rod...I just finished sending you a PM about a couple in my ward who are planning a two-year excursion aboard their sailboat... They will probably be emailing you... wonderful couple... true lovers of the sea and sailing... glad you have access to the Board so hope you get my PM... from the beach... GGok I'll be looking for it.
Popular Post rodheadlee Posted February 24, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 24, 2014 Ok, I'll start with some basic sailing terms and info. A sailboat can only sail 45* to windward at the most with 0* being dead upwind and 180* being dead downwind. There are rule breakers but they are lightweight race boats, a heavily laden cruising sailboat will be lucky to sail 50-55* off the wind. So if I desire to sail due north against a northerly breeze I'll be tacking constantly. Tacking is bringing the bow through the wind to put it on the opposite side of the boat. I'll have to sail NW for a bit then NE for a bit and so on to make a True North course. There is a saying amongst the cruisers that "gentlemen never sail to weather". This is because not only are you sailing against the wind but you are pounding into the seas created by this wind. It takes approximately 3 times longer to sail upwind than a direct course off the wind. I want to explain a bit about the trade winds, they blow from east to west from about 30*N to 4*N in the northern hemisphere at speeds of 10-25kts. A kt is an abbreviation for Nautical Mile per hour or nm. North of the trade wind belt is the light and variable belt also known as the horse latitudes because they would get trapped for weeks in these latitudes in the old square riggers and have to toss the horses overboard as the food and water ran out or so the story goes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_latitudes North of the Horse latitudes are the roaring 40s. These are where you will find your constant westerly winds and they are significantly more boisterous than the tradewinds. We prefer not to sail there. Near the equator is the ITCZ Inter Tropical Convergence Zone. This is a zone of doldrums with frequent squalls. We learned to sail the squalls by getting on the right side of them for our direction of travel. North of the equator a high pressure rotates clockwise and a low pressure rotates counter clockwise. It's all backwards down under in the southern latitudes. But the zones are the same . I could never figure the direction of travel for the squalls. They are essentially a small low pressure system buzzing through the area. North of the EQ they traveled NW and south they traveled, well NW for the most part. I expected them to travel SW down under but they didn't. In addition to the wind belts you have local phenomenon caused by lands masses and the movement of high pressure and low pressure systems across these land masses and the formation of tropical and subtropical storms. All of this is taken into account by any knowledgeable sailor before embarking on a voyage. I'm sure Haggoth didn't just jump out there and let it all hang out. My next post I'll describe some various possible routes and the winds and currents associated with them. 5
Freedom Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 How about this:3 Nephi 15 16 This much did the Father acommand me, that I should tell unto them: 17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one ashepherd. 18 And now, because of astiffneckedness and bunbelief they cunderstood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the dFather concerning this thing unto them. 19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were aseparated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. 20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. And this:3 Nephi 171 Behold, now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he looked round about again on the multitude, and he said unto them: Behold, my atime is at hand. 2 I aperceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot bunderstand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time. 3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and aponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and bprepare your minds for the cmorrow, and I come unto you again. 4 But now I ago unto the Father, and also to bshow myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not clost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.In other words, we have no idea so why speculate.
volgadon Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Who says that Hagoth sailed the entire year. I find it more logical to assume that they sailed until they found and, then explored the coast and the interior. One also has to take seasonal factors into consideration.
rodheadlee Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Ok, I'll start with this shipping route displayed by Tiki. This route is almost comical in that it cuts across the Gulf of Tehuanatepec. This gulf is infamous for it's winds. They can appear with little to no warning out of the north sweeping across the isthmus from Veracruz. They reach speeds of 60 knots and the waves can reach 40 feet within a few miles from shore. Many a sailor has tried to cut across to save time only to be blown hundreds of mile off course or to be rescued by the coast guard of Mexico or the US. The starting point at Puerto Madero I like. It's also the area where I think Nephi landed. It's a small natural harbor and is relatively out of the hurricane belt. Hurricanes are born here as well as south along the coasts of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. Typical hurricane season in this area is May15 to Nov 15 with August and September being the most dangerous months. The locals would have been aware of the T-Peckers, they are legendary, they can blow year round but are most frequent and intense in the winter months. The proposed landing area is unknown to me, I'll have to check my cruising guide but I know of no natural harbor at this point. North at Acapulco is a wonderful natural harbor, south at Huatulco are some great natural coves with decent shelter. The locals tell me Huatulco means "near to heaven". I agree it is a wonderful place and they were very friendly to visitors. Here is a description by another sailor of this area. from a blog I just googled. http://doolittlecruising.blogspot.com/2012/03/tehuantepec-t-peckers-tehuanapeckers.html Notice the statements regarding currents as this affects the sailing along the entire Mexico/ California coast . Sailing North is a BEAR! You are facing contrary winds and currents most of the year along the west coast of North America The winds are predominantly out of the NW until you clear the coast by a few hundred miles. The ITCZ runs all the way up to north of Acapulco at certain times of the year and the tradewinds cannot be found until you are several hundred miles offshore at this latitude. I would assume they had some oars to go with those sails. I'm not studied in ancient boat construction if any of you are I would be interested in hearing about it. March is the time of year sailors prepare to leave the coast for the South Pacific, most sailors depart north of Banderas Bay but it can be done from any point south it just lengthens the trip. Sailing up the Gulf of California, which we sailors call the Sea of Cortez, is a tough one too, Northers blow down out of AZ for the entire winter season starting in October, it can be done in May before the hurricanes start up. These northers reach 40 kts too and the waves are miserable because the water is shallow. We call them refrigerator waves because they are square. There is some good farmland up north of Mazatlan and I use to think some of the ships migrated to Mazatalan as it has a nice natural harbor. Further north in the Sea of Cortez, from about Cuidad Obregon, it's desert. You can sit in Mazatlan and watch the hurricanes go north up the Sea, they rarely turn in. Edited February 24, 2014 by rodheadlee 3
rodheadlee Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 This navy website : http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/global_nlom32/ias.html is a good place to get maps of the currents. As you can see in this pic on the west coast the north currents meet the south currents at the Gulf of T and form whirlpools. I think Nephi rode these currents out of the south. I'm not sure if currents are described as where they are from (like the wind) or where they are going? Anyway if Hagoth launched on the west coast of the Yucatan peninsula he would have favorable currents to sail to Florida, Louisiana and Texas. He would need to wait for the proper season and catch the bottom of a low pressure as they travel across the continental US to get a westerly breeze. Once reaching Florida you can see the Gulf Stream is honking going north. We sailed from Key West to Georgia and averaged over 10 kts using the Gulf Stream. When we left Beaufort, NC headed south we had to stay inside the Gulf Stream as we were riding a norther down and as the wind meets the current it stands the waves up making refrigerator waves. It was winter and the temps were in the 30's at night and as we would approach the GS the water would warm up to 80* and we would have to tack inland. But I so wanted to stay out there as the air warmed up too. I think it's highly possible for Hagoth to make the trip from the Yucatan to Europe riding the GS. The return trip would require sailing south along Europe to the tradewind belt and it would be a great sail back with the wind on his stern and he could have picked up the GS in the Caribbean to return to the Yucatan. They could have stopped at the Canary Islands before making the crossing. What is the history of these Islands? 2
rodheadlee Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) In other words, we have no idea so why speculate. Because it's fun? and teaches world geography, weather and history. Edited February 24, 2014 by rodheadlee 3
rodheadlee Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Who says that Hagoth sailed the entire year. I find it more logical to assume that they sailed until they found and, then explored the coast and the interior. One also has to take seasonal factors into consideration.That's a good point. Some of us sail for the destination and some of us sail for the voyage itself. It will be interesting to meet Hagoth and Nephi and discuss it. 3
hagoth7 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Posted February 24, 2014 Who says that Hagoth sailed the entire year. I find it more logical to assume that they sailed until they found and, then explored the coast and the interior. One also has to take seasonal factors into consideration.No one is saying he sailed the entire year. It's just too simplistic to say, as the LGT map did, that he sailed for only 5 days and stopped. And then waited a year to make the return trip.
hagoth7 Posted February 26, 2014 Author Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Shouldn't there be language artifacts marking the migration like bread crumbs. Linguists have detected Hebrew and Egyptian influence in the Germanic languages (the Germanic languages include English). They assert that a people lived on the European coast that adopted Germanic by around 12 BC. That means a language change a generation or two after Hagoth. That's about right for an immigrant family. It's usually not the first generation that integrates into the new language. Edited February 26, 2014 by hagoth7 1
knowone Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 in my opinion, some ships went to hawaii as proven by remanents of mexican obsidian found on the hawaiian islands. other ships went north & up the mississippi which became the missisipians or the mound builders in the midwest. one can research the evidence of the city of cahokia or aztlan state park in north america. we dont have the records of these peoples, but apparently they were destroyed by viking invaders before columbus arrived in the new world accordiong to archeological evidence of defensive structures made in aztlan state park facing northeast towards the early viking settlements in newfoundland canada.
Calm Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Do you mean Aztalan State Park, WI?"apparently they were destroyed by viking invaders"CFR please. Edited March 4, 2014 by calmoriah
knowone Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Do you mean Aztalan State Park, WI?"apparently they were destroyed by viking invaders"CFR please. yes aztalan state park, wi. sorry, im new here. what does cfr mean?
Calm Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Call for reference....providing documentation of one's claim for those that want information and/ or evidence.
ERayR Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Who says that Hagoth sailed the entire year. I find it more logical to assume that they sailed until they found and, then explored the coast and the interior. One also has to take seasonal factors into consideration. Also I find it unlikely that it was relegated to one voyage in the same ocean. It says Hagoth was a curious sort of fellow. To me that would suggest that he made numerous ships and sent out several voyages. To satisfy his curiosity, you know. 1
volgadon Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Linguists have detected Hebrew and Egyptian influence in the Germanic languages (the Germanic languages include English). They assert that a people lived on the European coast that adopted Germanic by around 12 BC. That means a language change a generation or two after Hagoth. That's about right for an immigrant family. It's usually not the first generation that integrates into the new language. Which linguists?
rodheadlee Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) I've been waiting for a week, or since this thread started to show you a T-pecker gale but it's just not happening. Hagoth could have rowed up the coast to Mazatlan in this weather with no problem. The could have had some diurnal winds which would not be on this chart. Each flag reps the wind with a bar =10 kts 1/2 bar = 5kts, the direction is the point of the flag, The seas are given in feet You have to get to 120W to get some trade winds in the northern hemisphere. The tradewinds are pretty light in the southern hemisphere, are we having an el nino? Edited March 7, 2014 by rodheadlee
rodheadlee Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 in my opinion, some ships went to hawaii as proven by remanents of mexican obsidian found on the hawaiian islands. other ships went north & up the mississippi which became the missisipians or the mound builders in the midwest. one can research the evidence of the city of cahokia or aztlan state park in north america. we dont have the records of these peoples, but apparently they were destroyed by viking invaders before columbus arrived in the new world accordiong to archeological evidence of defensive structures made in aztlan state park facing northeast towards the early viking settlements in newfoundland canada.
ERayR Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Mexico to Hawaii is a wonderful sail. They tell me the Gulf of Mexico to Europe is a pretty nice trip in the summer.
Tiki Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 With all the claims that the Nephites were restricted to Mesoamerica but sailed to other lands, I'm surprised at the claim that Moroni walked to New York. Why didn't he just sail up the Mississippi and Ohio rivers?
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