Alan Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 My purpose in starting this thread is to examine whether we think there are parallels between the current direction of the the church and the journey the RLDS church began a little over 50 years ago.I'm not specifically talking about doctrinal differences between the two largest Mormon churches, but rather about differences between them and the rest of the christian world. The RLDS church (now called the Community of Christ) has undergone a major revision of many aspects of it's teachings and practices over this period, which has gradually unfolded to reveal a church very different from the one which was led by Joseph Smith III and his immediate successors. This has included a revision of historical interpretations in the light modern scholarship, a more inclusive theology, various doctrinal changes, and significant changes to church practice, including the ordination of women and alterations to membership requirements etc. I personally suspect we are on a similar journey. I'm not suggesting we'll end up in the same place as the RLDS church, but I wonder if in 50 years from now we will look back and realise, as they have, how different we have become from that which we thought we were. I would be very interested to hear your views.
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 If we are you can expect me to vacate the church. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 To your way of thinking, how has the Church changed? How do you predict the Church will change?
Coreyb Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 We already are very different than we were, but I hope we always keep those aspects of our religion that make us Mormons. I know community of Christ members, and it's seems to me that they have become almost indistinguishable from other progressive Christian denominations in current doctrine and practice. If that happens to us, I don't see much to stay for. 2
Buzzard Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Well, so far we have not had our Prophet, Seer, and Revelation come out and renounce the historicity of the Book of Mormon. That's kind of a big leap. IMHO, one of the big reasons the COC is where it is today is that most of it's leadership were educated at liberal Protestant colleges-mainly Methodist-and rose through the ranks of the church as professional clergy. That's a big cultural difference between them and the main LDS church. Having a lay clergy, and most of the small cadre of professionals (Seminary/Institute teachers, for the most part) educated at BYU-arguably the seat of LDS orthodoxy-would seem to be an anchor against forces that would drag the church towards the kind of social and theological stands you see coming from the COC.
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 The demands on a church of six people is going to be different than the demands on a church fast approaching 16 million. I expect that in 50 more years if that trend continues we'll be even more different than we are today. However as long as the Lord is calling the shots we'll be OK.
ALarson Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 My purpose in starting this thread is to examine whether we think there are parallels between the current direction of the the church and the journey the RLDS church began a little over 50 years ago.I'm not specifically talking about doctrinal differences between the two largest Mormon churches, but rather about differences between them and the rest of the christian world. The RLDS church (now called the Community of Christ) has undergone a major revision of many aspects of it's teachings and practices over this period, which has gradually unfolded to reveal a church very different from the one which was led by Joseph Smith III and his immediate successors. This has included a revision of historical interpretations in the light modern scholarship, a more inclusive theology, various doctrinal changes, and significant changes to church practice, including the ordination of women and alterations to membership requirements etc. I personally suspect we are on a similar journey. I'm not suggesting we'll end up in the same place as the RLDS church, but I wonder if in 50 years from now we will look back and realise, as they have, how different we have become from that which we thought we were. I would be very interested to hear your views.Hey Alan, I like this post and I think you're onto something here (at least to discuss). I honestly doubt the church will go as far as the RLDS regarding ordaining women, etc.....but, who knows? I do know of many, many members who no longer believe that the Book of Mormon is historically factual. They still believe it was inspired scripture but that there is just not enough physical evidence plus the problems with DNA and so on. I think this belief will just continue to grow within the church. I see the church attempting to be more honest with the troubling issues from the past and I do believe that's what the RLDS did too. They (RLDS) however lost a huge portion of their membership from doing this and remember that we share much of the same history.
ALarson Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 The demands on a church of six people is going to be different than the demands on a church fast approaching 16 millionI agree. But how many of those 16 million are still active? That's the true number to look at.
PtolemyGlenn Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Stupid question. Does the LDS cnfirm that the Rlds President is a Prophet also.When I asked an elder of the difference between the two churches he told me not to be concerned. That the RLDS is declining in membership and wont have the same impact as the LDS church.
Freedom Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Stupid question. Does the LDS cnfirm that the Rlds President is a Prophet also. When I asked an elder of the difference between the two churches he told me not to be concerned. That the RLDS is declining in membership and wont have the same impact as the LDS church.The RLDS is no more associated with the LDS church than is the Jehoha's Witnesses. It is a break away group that apostatized and likely will not be around much long as it becomes more and more protestant.
PtolemyGlenn Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I expect the Church will continue to make course corrections from time to time, as it always has, but I'm not even remotely concerned about it falling into institutional apostasy. (I am a bit concerned about its future financial prospects, though.)Why does that concern you in regards to finacinal prospects. If church membership grows so does the amount of tithing.
CV75 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I expect the Church will continue to make course corrections from time to time, as it always has, but I'm not even remotely concerned about it falling into institutional apostasy. (I am a bit concerned about its future financial prospects, though.)I found this about that: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/01/face-the-future-with-faith-and-hope?lang=eng "You may ask, “Where will the financial resources come from to fund this growth?” The resources will come from faithful members through their tithes and offerings. As we do our part, the Lord will bless us with prosperity and with the wisdom to keep our mind focused on what matters most in life: “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33). "So for yet a season, possibly a short season, it will seem as though the windows of heaven will have truly opened so that “there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10). "I believe many of today’s young adults will be active participants in temporal blessings if they keep the commandments of the Lord. With prosperity will come a unique challenge—a test that will try many to their spiritual core. As you step into this new world of prosperity and engage in converting your education and skills into financial success, you will always have to distinguish between wants and needs." 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 My purpose in starting this thread is to examine whether we think there are parallels between the current direction of the the church and the journey the RLDS church began a little over 50 years ago.I'm not specifically talking about doctrinal differences between the two largest Mormon churches, but rather about differences between them and the rest of the christian world. The RLDS church (now called the Community of Christ) has undergone a major revision of many aspects of it's teachings and practices over this period, which has gradually unfolded to reveal a church very different from the one which was led by Joseph Smith III and his immediate successors. This has included a revision of historical interpretations in the light modern scholarship, a more inclusive theology, various doctrinal changes, and significant changes to church practice, including the ordination of women and alterations to membership requirements etc. I personally suspect we are on a similar journey. I'm not suggesting we'll end up in the same place as the RLDS church, but I wonder if in 50 years from now we will look back and realise, as they have, how different we have become from that which we thought we were. I would be very interested to hear your views.Re: the part I have emphasized in bold above. The Community of Christ does not accept the descriptor "Mormon" for itself.
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I agree. But how many of those 16 million are still active? That's the true number to look at. Doesn't matter. The truth claims of the Church are the same regardless if there is one or ten billion active members. Though obviously our needs, more buildings, would be different.
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 In theory that should be the case. But the reality is that Church expenditures exceed tithing income in many parts of the world. LDS scholar Matthew Bowman spelled out the problem in an article written for Slate last year: Our institutional experience has been that as more and more people join the Church, and more fully implement its teachings. the more funds become available to build those chapels, meetinghouses, and Temples. I'm old enough to remember helping build one of our local Ward buildings then paying an assessment to keep it operating. I've grown used to not having to do those things, but there is nothing Scriptural about not doing it.
PtolemyGlenn Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) In theory that should be the case. But the reality is that Church expenditures exceed tithing income in many parts of the world.LDS scholar Matthew Bowman spelled out the problem in an article written for Slate last year:In Australia. Im not sure about the rest of the world many of the smaller Catholic and Anglican churches are closing due to people going elsewhere, no religion becoming popular and no young blood entering those churches. They tend to close a few to belp sistain Those that are stl doinfg ok.What you may see in the future is the closure of the smaller missions and temples and wards growing in size as it accomodates people from other wards. It will save money as less property to deal with.Or a common socialist approach. Demand more from the middle and upper classes to sustsin the poorer class. Edited January 31, 2014 by PtolemyGlenn
Damien the Leper Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I certainly hope that the LDS church does not move away from its own brand of orthodoxy that has become much more prominent in last century. The church of 1830-1844 no longer exists so that is no longer a contemporary concern. CoC is all over the place they may as well be Unitarians Considering Christ. Their actions as a church are not a mirror of their mission. The liberal position of "we're good with whatever" makes me want to vomit. The LDS have a solid backbone. 1
ALarson Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Doesn't matter. Of course it matters. Total number of members is not nearly as important as retention rates and activity rates.
ALarson Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Why does that concern you in regards to finacinal prospects. If church membership grows so does the amount of tithing.Not necessarily. That's why retention rates and activity rates are so important. Also, there are many active members who do not pay tithing or contribute to the church financially.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Of course it matters. Total number of members is not nearly as important as retention rates and activity rates.I think what sometimesaint is saying is that if the claims are truth, their truthfulness does not depend upon how many members are active or how many converts are retained. To put it another way, truth is independent of popularity.
PtolemyGlenn Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Not necessarily. That's why retention rates and activity rates are so important. Also, there are many active members who do not pay tithing or contribute to the church financially.Does the LDS not have discipleship partners whose responsibility is to encoirage a fellow brother or sister to not only be walking a Godly path by to contribute to regular tithing. In the good ole days of my old church your discipleship partner wohld sit down with you with your bank statement and pay slips and see what areas could be cut away to help the church grow more.
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Of course it matters. Total number of members is not nearly as important as retention rates and activity rates. Not really. The Church is true regardless of total numbers, retention rates, or activity rates. Numbers do make a difference to how we fund the activities of those active members. IE; In our Stake we'd have to build 2&1/2 times the number of buildings we have to house a 100% activity rate. That can be accomplished either through tithing, or as I have said direct participation, and assessments, of the members in the building and funding of those Chapels, Meetinghouses, and Temples. There is nothing Scriptural about either option.
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