Mocking The Poor

[Vance]

I would disagree with two points. The first is the whole concept of me being wrong.

Well, you are wrong, we are called to judge EVERYDAY, it is part of our stewardship.

Also in the absolute sense God has made us stewards over His substance.

Which does NOT negate my point that we ARE called to judge.

Not sure why you hate government bureaucrats so much that you need to caricature them.

Not sure why people trust an unelected, nameless, faceless bureaucrat thousands of miles away to do the right thing by the truly poor, but they don't trust their neighbor, who they should know, to do the right thing.

 

Yes, Brigham Young did condemn idleness. I did not contest that.

You specifically implied OTHERWISE. With this,

Brigham Young used this as a hammer against the idle rich and not the idle poor.

and an end to our obesity epidemic (which makes the last item more pleasant for everyone else).

Why is it that most of the "poor" in our country are obese? Could it be idleness?  

 

Yes, as long as the poor have a chicken bone to gnaw on and some pants and a t-shirt and we stop by for a visit if they are sick from exposure we can sit back content that we have done our duty. I am sure that is exactly what he mean.

see above.

 

Obamaphones? Wow. So many people want welfare to keep people at bare subsistence and still insist they somehow get a job. Have you ever tried to apply for a job without a phone number? It is probably one of the efficient moves that we can make to get people self-sufficient.

Please feel free to show the scripture that says that I am required to provide the "poor" with more than food and clothing.

[Vance]

And if we are grudging in that judgement so shall we be judged.

Thus the scripture,

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

And,

Alma 41:14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; . . .

And,

D&C 11:12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

[bluebell]

One of the reasons that poor people are more often obese is because fatty unhealthy food is much cheaper than food that is good for you.  For a dollar you can buy a hamburger at mcdonalds, or two limes, for example.  When you are poor and hungry, the choice is not difficult.

[Vance]

One of the reasons that poor people are more often obese is because fatty unhealthy food is much cheaper than food that is good for you.  For a dollar you can buy a hamburger at mcdonalds, or two limes, for example.  When you are poor and hungry, the choice is not difficult.

Can we trace this back to the Government "welfare" system? When you just dole out money for food rather than the food itself, don't you encourage this kind of diet (and laziness). Edited January 7, 2014 by Vance

[mercyngrace]

Just one quick comment. 

 

Why is it that most of the "poor" in our country are obese? Could it be idleness?  
 
 

I grew up in a working lower middle class community. It wasn't idleness that kept us chubby. In fact, my parents always worked at least three jobs between them (in addition to receiving my dad's military retirement) and we kids all had paper routes, we had a larger family paper route to fund my brothers' missions, and we delivered phone books every Spring. We were chubby for a the simple reason that Ramen, rice, spaghetti, bread, and chips are cheaper than apples, beef, broccoli, and tomatoes. Now we were never poor enough for (nor would my proud parents have ever asked for) help of any kind but if you are doing the shopping for a family, especially a family with many children, you know that cheap processed grains are the budget friendly foods. 

 

Ironically, my own children, having grown up in far better circumstances are much slimmer than I was as a child in spite of never having had a job (I started throwing newspapers at 9 years old and had my own route at 11). They have very strong thumbs though, gaming does that.  LOL.

[bluebell]

Can we trace this back to the Government "welfare" system? When you just dole out money for food rather than the food itself, don't you encourage this kind of diet (and laziness).

 

I agree that providing the food itself rather than the money for the food might be a good way to help poor families eat better.

 

However, i don't see how the cost of food stems from the government welfare system, and it is the cost of food which causes this kind of diet.  Do you have any facts to back up that assertion?

Edited January 7, 2014 by bluebell

[MorningStar]

Can we trace this back to the Government "welfare" system? When you just dole out money for food rather than the food itself, don't you encourage this kind of diet (and laziness).

I know a lot of poor fat people who work hard.    You know what sucks?  When you want to eat better, but that loaf of white bread is 99 cents and the whole grain bread is at least double that.  When you're hungry and have no money, you have to choose what is cheapest and often that is crap.  The cheapest bread at the store has high fructose corn syrup in it.  Canned food is often high in sodium, has msg, etc. 

[Tacenda]

I know a lot of poor fat people who work hard.    You know what sucks?  When you want to eat better, but that loaf of white bread is 99 cents and the whole grain bread is at least double that.  When you're hungry and have no money, you have to choose what is cheapest and often that is crap.  The cheapest bread at the store has high fructose corn syrup in it.  Canned food is often high in sodium, has msg, etc. 

99 cent menu at Mcdonalds anyone? 

[MorningStar]

99 cent menu at Mcdonalds anyone? 

But the loaf of bread will last you for multiple crappy meals. 

[The Nehor]

Can we trace this back to the Government "welfare" system? When you just dole out money for food rather than the food itself, don't you encourage this kind of diet (and laziness).

Not unless the government is going to dole out more nutritious (and more expensive) food. Right now the cheapest food is heavy on calories and low on nutrients. Thus, they grow fat. We have at least inverted the past a bit. It used to be that only the wealthy could have the luxury of being fat. Now it is a lifestyle choice for the wealthy.

[The Nehor]

Well, you are wrong, we are called to judge EVERYDAY, it is part of our stewardship.Which does NOT negate my point that we ARE called to judge.

No, not in the specific judgment I was talking about. To do so is sin. The scriptures are clear on that point.

Not sure why people trust an unelected, nameless, faceless bureaucrat thousands of miles away to do the right thing by the truly poor, but they don't trust their neighbor, who they should know, to do the right thing.

This may surprise you but government bureaucrats have names and faces even if you do not know them. They have souls too which may surprise you. All of them are actually even children of God if you can imagine such a thing. Some of my neighbors are virtuous. Others are not. I am not sure why I should trust someone more because they happen to live on the same street as me.

 Please feel free to show the scripture that says that I am required to provide the "poor" with more than food and clothing.

Well, I certainly would not trust you to do the right thing if you were my neighbor after you said that. You quoted a scripture making it clear we were to meet their wants. Even with your dubious interpretation of the word that includes more then just food and clothing as you need more then that to survive and live. I also recommend a few parables. The sheep and the goats parable which makes it sound like our salvation is dependent on how generously we give and the parable of the 12 sons in the D&C that makes it clear wealth is not an indicator of blessedness and poverty is not an indication of sin or laziness.

I realize these scriptural imperatives make you uncomfortable. They make me uncomfortable. You cannot just try to explain them away by claiming socialism is evil and that your stewardship is license to decide who eats well and who does not.

[Calm]

The war in heaven was over

a.) forcing people to be good or

b.) allowing people to be good of their own free will and choice...

I prefer the version that a.) was actually removing all law so there was no sin, thus allowing people to do whatever they want in mortality and they would still be able to get back into heaven with Lucifer's alleged "get out of jail free card". I find it completely unbelievable that a group that wanted to be forced to be good would then turn on the ultimate good himself, God. Those who accept Satan as master today (unknowingly) tend to be the same type....not the ones who would go to the extreme of being forced to be good. Even those who see government as a way to force others to be good want it to be their 'good'....thus they wouldn't be the ones being forced, but living however they wanted.

[Calm]

EVERYDAY,......NOT....ARE ..... OTHERWISE.

Vance, this really does come across as 'too loud' to me. Funny how we pick up new ways of seeing things so easily sometimes. Perhaps you could find a better way to emphasize your points such as italics? I think it would make your posts come across as less emotional. Remember we can't hear so we are naturally looking for other clues to tone and Internet tradition defines all caps as yelling.

Just something to think about as I suspect I am not the only one who struggles to interpret it as emphasis and not yelling.

[thesometimesaint]

The radical solution is consecration. It is too radical.

 

There are a lot of other problems as well. Poverty is a kind of mindset. I recently read a fascinating article on why the poor do not save. After reading it I find it hard to blame them.

 

I make a decent wage and save about a thousand dollars a month for both short and long term reasons and fulfill my reasonable wants. If a minimum wage guy tries to save let's say he can save $50 a month by giving up something enjoyable. We both take some kind of financial hit like a traffic ticket or some car repairs. I am a little annoyed but pay it and do not notice. His savings are possibly wiped out for months with nothing to show for it. This happens a few times and the guy gives up on saving. He isn't making any progress so why bother. So he gives up and just spends it as he gets it because saving for the future never works. This is a large part of the reason poverty is passed on to children. When raised by parents living that mindset it becomes "the way things are". 

 

In America working full time at minimum wage is not livable.

[thesometimesaint]

Thus the scripture,

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

And,

Alma 41:14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; . . .

And,

D&C 11:12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

 

Now if we could just insure that everybody judged righteously.

[thesometimesaint]

But the loaf of bread will last you for multiple crappy meals. 

 

True. Even McDonald's tells it employees not to eat the food they serve.

[The Nehor]

True. Even McDonald's tells it employees not to eat the food they serve.

They also recently released a guide for their employees telling them how to survive on minimum wage. It is pretty laughable. The budget is unworkable.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

One of the reasons that poor people are more often obese is because fatty unhealthy food is much cheaper than food that is good for you.  For a dollar you can buy a hamburger at mcdonalds, or two limes, for example.  When you are poor and hungry, the choice is not difficult.

Did you see the recent story about the guy that lost 37 pounds eating nothing but mcdonalds. So this old chestnut can die that people that a poor are fat because bad food is cheaper. I just don;'t buy that line anymore. I think most of it has to do with diet and sitting on ones own a$$. Case in point, me. I am over weight mainly because I don't work out I am not lazy, I work its just that I sit all day.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know a lot of poor fat people who work hard.    You know what sucks?  When you want to eat better, but that loaf of white bread is 99 cents and the whole grain bread is at least double that.  When you're hungry and have no money, you have to choose what is cheapest and often that is crap.  The cheapest bread at the store has high fructose corn syrup in it.  Canned food is often high in sodium, has msg, etc. 

People are not fat because they can't get whole grain foods. What a load. I am sorry. They are not fat because they eat at mcdonalds. THey are fat because the caloric intake is greater than what calories they burn in a day. It really is not any more complex than that.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

True. Even McDonald's tells it employees not to eat the food they serve.

BS CFR.

[thesometimesaint]

They also recently released a guide for their employees telling them how to survive on minimum wage. It is pretty laughable. The budget is unworkable.

 

I'll try to be generous and say that the McDonald's Corp. doesn't have a clue as to what is like to work there. Otherwise it just comes off as mocking the poor.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In America working full time at minimum wage is not livable.

So tell me Saint what should we pay every one? 23 dollars an hour? What is the magic number. Is it 100 dollars an hour. IF not why not.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'll try to be generous and say that the McDonald's Corp. doesn't have a clue as to what is like to work there. Otherwise it just comes off as mocking the poor.

What an other load. I am grateful that Mcdonalds employs a great deal of many people. Would these people that work there be better off if they didnt have that job? You guys have such a skewed view of the real world. What you are doing is mocking the poor and trying to take away what they have because you think Mcdonalds is a big bad corporation. 

[The Nehor]

Did you see the recent story about the guy that lost 37 pounds eating nothing but mcdonalds. So this old chestnut can die that people that a poor are fat because bad food is cheaper. I just don;'t buy that line anymore. I think most of it has to do with diet and sitting on ones own a$$. Case in point, me. I am over weight mainly because I don't work out I am not lazy, I work its just that I sit all day.

No, this is pretty established. Fruits and veggies are more expensive. The problem is not limited to the impoverished. Many who could afford to eat better and do not. Far too many people have no idea how to cook. The poor guy working two jobs can use the excuse that he has no time to cook. Others just never learned or choose not to which is probably laziness.

Not working out and getting fat pretty much is laziness too. Seriously, you can work out while watching television at night if nothing else.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not unless the government is going to dole out more nutritious (and more expensive) food. Right now the cheapest food is heavy on calories and low on nutrients. Thus, they grow fat. We have at least inverted the past a bit. It used to be that only the wealthy could have the luxury of being fat. Now it is a lifestyle choice for the wealthy.

I think this is also a load of crap. See above.