An Insight From Another Board, Not Usually Religious.

[Buzzard]

Sports board, though since it is BYU sports, a lot of religious discussion comes up. 

Anyway, one of the posters shared that he had really been struggling with his testimony, to the point of contemplating leaving the church, but had had an experience that left him totally at peace with staying right where he was. 

Anyway, he posted this analogy, which I personally found pretty profound, especially in light of our splitting hairs over past and present leadership: For your consideration, from the poster known as "cougars den":

"The analogy I have from this experience is that the church on earth is like giving a master artist crayons and asking them to replicate the Mona Lisa. The artist will probably get all the important features so that you can tell it is supposed to be the Mona Lisa, but still only Da Vinci could paint the Mona Lisa, and if limited to only crayons, even Da Vinci couldn’t do it. So instead of being upset that the earthly version of the Kingdom of God is not a perfect replica of the real one, I should be grateful that we have what we do (all the important stuff) and look forward to an eternity in the real one.

Also, forgiving others seems to be a real test to mortality and that even means forgiving past and current leaders."

 

[Palerider]

Sports board, though since it is BYU sports, a lot of religious discussion comes up. 

Anyway, one of the posters shared that he had really been struggling with his testimony, to the point of contemplating leaving the church, but had had an experience that left him totally at peace with staying right where he was. 

Anyway, he posted this analogy, which I personally found pretty profound, especially in light of our splitting hairs over past and present leadership: For your consideration, from the poster known as "cougars den":

"The analogy I have from this experience is that the church on earth is like giving a master artist crayons and asking them to replicate the Mona Lisa. The artist will probably get all the important features so that you can tell it is supposed to be the Mona Lisa, but still only Da Vinci could paint the Mona Lisa, and if limited to only crayons, even Da Vinci couldn’t do it. So instead of being upset that the earthly version of the Kingdom of God is not a perfect replica of the real one, I should be grateful that we have what we do (all the important stuff) and look forward to an eternity in the real one.

Also, forgiving others seems to be a real test to mortality and that even means forgiving past and current leaders."

 

 

I'm sorry but Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa. He painted a woman of his time and that painting became known as the Mona LIsa.

 

If you had given him a box of crayons to do the job with it would still have been a masterpeice when he was done. Look at his drawings if you don't believe me.

 

What we have to ask ourselves regarding the church is:

 

Are we looking at the Master's hand in this creation? Or are we looking at a clever copyist? Or something a little in between. Michaelangelos paintings have been retouched by inferior artists.  

 

It's usually quite easy to tell where..........

[rick7475]

I don't think he was an expert on art, but he tried to present an analogy as best he could from a laymen's perpsective, which I think is quite insightful.

[pmccombs1]

Sports board, though since it is BYU sports, a lot of religious discussion comes up. 

Anyway, one of the posters shared that he had really been struggling with his testimony, to the point of contemplating leaving the church, but had had an experience that left him totally at peace with staying right where he was. 

Anyway, he posted this analogy, which I personally found pretty profound, especially in light of our splitting hairs over past and present leadership: For your consideration, from the poster known as "cougars den":

"The analogy I have from this experience is that the church on earth is like giving a master artist crayons and asking them to replicate the Mona Lisa. The artist will probably get all the important features so that you can tell it is supposed to be the Mona Lisa, but still only Da Vinci could paint the Mona Lisa, and if limited to only crayons, even Da Vinci couldn’t do it. So instead of being upset that the earthly version of the Kingdom of God is not a perfect replica of the real one, I should be grateful that we have what we do (all the important stuff) and look forward to an eternity in the real one.

Also, forgiving others seems to be a real test to mortality and that even means forgiving past and current leaders."

 

That insight is fine, I suppose, if one's struggles concern execution over content. But some among us, perhaps, do not care much for the Mona Lisa. I should rather have a scene from Koekkoek or an abstract by Waterston. 

 

By my own critical eye, if the Kingdom of Heaven is merely a perfectly executed version of what the church now scribbles imperfectly with its metaphorical crayons, then I imagine it must be some glorious sort of franchise--a great and wonderful McChurch where billions and billions are served the exact same perfectly engineered fare--not simply a mediocrity, but a stunning, towering mediocrity writ large. 

 

It does not matter what tools the artist has, nor what his skills are if, for a subject, he chooses the mundane and the uninspired.  But what I consider rather common and uninspired in terms of subject matter, others may find utterly captivating. If it has the power to sweep up their souls to new heights, then who am I to say it is rubbish? For myself, I expect to find salvation elsewhere. Eventually.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Sports board, though since it is BYU sports, a lot of religious discussion comes up. 

Anyway, one of the posters shared that he had really been struggling with his testimony, to the point of contemplating leaving the church, but had had an experience that left him totally at peace with staying right where he was. 

Anyway, he posted this analogy, which I personally found pretty profound, especially in light of our splitting hairs over past and present leadership: For your consideration, from the poster known as "cougars den":

"The analogy I have from this experience is that the church on earth is like giving a master artist crayons and asking them to replicate the Mona Lisa. The artist will probably get all the important features so that you can tell it is supposed to be the Mona Lisa, but still only Da Vinci could paint the Mona Lisa, and if limited to only crayons, even Da Vinci couldn’t do it. So instead of being upset that the earthly version of the Kingdom of God is not a perfect replica of the real one, I should be grateful that we have what we do (all the important stuff) and look forward to an eternity in the real one.

Also, forgiving others seems to be a real test to mortality and that even means forgiving past and current leaders."

Very good, I wish he posted here, I may try to write a new poem using this concept. Either way I will use the quote next time I speak in Sacrament.

[Ahab]

Sports board, though since it is BYU sports, a lot of religious discussion comes up. 

Anyway, one of the posters shared that he had really been struggling with his testimony, to the point of contemplating leaving the church, but had had an experience that left him totally at peace with staying right where he was. 

Anyway, he posted this analogy, which I personally found pretty profound, especially in light of our splitting hairs over past and present leadership: For your consideration, from the poster known as "cougars den":

"The analogy I have from this experience is that the church on earth is like giving a master artist crayons and asking them to replicate the Mona Lisa. The artist will probably get all the important features so that you can tell it is supposed to be the Mona Lisa, but still only Da Vinci could paint the Mona Lisa, and if limited to only crayons, even Da Vinci couldn’t do it. So instead of being upset that the earthly version of the Kingdom of God is not a perfect replica of the real one, I should be grateful that we have what we do (all the important stuff) and look forward to an eternity in the real one.

Also, forgiving others seems to be a real test to mortality and that even means forgiving past and current leaders."

What experience was he talking about?  The analogy doesn't make much sense to me, as it is written.  The church is the people in God's kingdom on this Earth.  How are "we" like giving a master artist some crayons... ? 

 

Did he mean each one of us is trying to illustrate or depict the church or the kingdom of God in heaven and that we only have something akin to crayons to try to describe it, or make it ?

 

Still scratching my head here, not sure what he meant.

[Buzzard]

What experience was he talking about?  The analogy doesn't make much sense to me, as it is written.  The church is the people in God's kingdom on this Earth.  How are "we" like giving a master artist some crayons... ? 

 

Did he mean each one of us is trying to illustrate or depict the church or the kingdom of God in heaven and that we only have something akin to crayons to try to describe it, or make it ?

 

Still scratching my head here, not sure what he meant.

I'll take a stab at it. I THINK he means that the church as it exists today, is the best representation that flawed humans can make of God's incredible kingdom, and that while our artistry might be passable, when we see what the true master artist has waiting for us, it will be incredible compared to what we have drawn here. 

For him, the lesson he took away is not to expect the final, finished, perfect Kingdom of God here on earth, since it is drawn by fallible men. The perfect Kingdom still awaits. And I infer that he had been struggling with the Church's imperfections, but had an experience that in great measure resolved his conflict. 

[mercyngrace]

Sports board, though since it is BYU sports, a lot of religious discussion comes up. 

Anyway, one of the posters shared that he had really been struggling with his testimony, to the point of contemplating leaving the church, but had had an experience that left him totally at peace with staying right where he was. 

Anyway, he posted this analogy, which I personally found pretty profound, especially in light of our splitting hairs over past and present leadership: For your consideration, from the poster known as "cougars den":

"The analogy I have from this experience is that the church on earth is like giving a master artist crayons and asking them to replicate the Mona Lisa. The artist will probably get all the important features so that you can tell it is supposed to be the Mona Lisa, but still only Da Vinci could paint the Mona Lisa, and if limited to only crayons, even Da Vinci couldn’t do it. So instead of being upset that the earthly version of the Kingdom of God is not a perfect replica of the real one, I should be grateful that we have what we do (all the important stuff) and look forward to an eternity in the real one.

Also, forgiving others seems to be a real test to mortality and that even means forgiving past and current leaders."

 

Using this analogy, I think the bigger issue is that there are some among us who keep trying to pass the poor rendition off as the masterpiece. This is dangerous because it's easy for critics to see the stray crayon marks. For that matter, the more developed one's sense of the aesthetic, the more easily one recognizes the flaws, in spite of his appreciation for the replica.

 

Essentially, the crayon drawing only serves as a hint of something much better and to be useful must be presented as such. An exaggerated loyalty to the drawing seems destined to either limit the development of appreciation for the masterpiece or lead one to complete disillusion with Da Vinci.

 

Just my opinion.

[Ahab]

Using this analogy, I think the bigger issue is that there are some among us who keep trying to pass the poor rendition off as the masterpiece. This is dangerous because it's easy for critics to see the stray crayon marks. For that matter, the more developed one's sense of the aesthetic, the more easily one recognizes the flaws, in spite of his appreciation for the replica.

 

Essentially, the crayon drawing only serves as a hint of something much better and to be useful must be presented as such. An exaggerated loyalty to the drawing seems destined to either limit the development of appreciation for the masterpiece or lead one to complete disillusion with Da Vinci.

 

Just my opinion.

I like your opinion.

[Ahab]

I'll take a stab at it. I THINK he means that the church as it exists today, is the best representation that flawed humans can make of God's incredible kingdom, and that while our artistry might be passable, when we see what the true master artist has waiting for us, it will be incredible compared to what we have drawn here. 

For him, the lesson he took away is not to expect the final, finished, perfect Kingdom of God here on earth, since it is drawn by fallible men. The perfect Kingdom still awaits. And I infer that he had been struggling with the Church's imperfections, but had an experience that in great measure resolved his conflict. 

Makes good sense to me, if that's what he meant.

 

So basically we should not try to persuade people to believe the church as it is now is perfect, because the church is us and he isn't done with us yet and to think we are perfect just kinda throws everyone into a tailspin when they see that we are not perfect, yet.

[teddyaware]

I'm sorry but Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa. He painted a woman of his time and that painting became known as the Mona LIsa.

 

If you had given him a box of crayons to do the job with it would still have been a masterpeice when he was done. Look at his drawings if you don't believe me.

 

What we have to ask ourselves regarding the church is:

 

Are we looking at the Master's hand in this creation? Or are we looking at a clever copyist? Or something a little in between. Michaelangelos paintings have been retouched by inferior artists.  

 

It's usually quite easy to tell where..........

What a fuddy duddy, party pooper way to undermine the valuable meaning of a perfectly good and effective analogy.

[Palerider]

What a fuddy duddy, party pooper way to undermine the valuable meaning of a perfectly good and effective analogy.

 

Sorry to disillusion you........

 

Also I hear there's not supposed to be a lot of name calling on this board but I generally choose not to run to mommy about such things.

I just mentally categorize people who do such things to where they belong..........

[teddyaware]

Sorry to disillusion you........

 

Also I hear there's not supposed to be a lot of name calling on this board but I generally choose not to run to mommy about such things.

I just mentally categorize people who do such things to where they belong..........

So I suppose you've consigned me to your mental dungeon when all I said was that your response was that of a party pooper (oh the horror!).

[Garden Girl]

Why are some pulling apart this person's analogy... it works for him... and quite frankly I can relate to his example. 

Some have given insightful comments... and I can also appreciate such additional insights... if his analogy does not work for others that is irrelevant... again, it works for him and helped him find peace with where he is.

 

GG

[mercyngrace]

Why are some pulling apart this person's analogy... it works for him... and quite frankly I can relate to his example. 

Some have given insightful comments... and I can also appreciate such additional insights... if his analogy does not work for others that is irrelevant... again, it works for him and helped him find peace with where he is.

 

GG

 

For my part, I presumed the OP posted this expecting analysis of the analogy.  Buzzard's been around plenty long enough to know this isn't Facebook or Pinterest. I imagine he expected people to opine on where they think the analogy is apt and where it may not be.  Why else would he have posted it here?  

[Buzzard]

For my part, I presumed the OP posted this expecting analysis of the analogy.  Buzzard's been around plenty long enough to know this isn't Facebook or Pinterest. I imagine he expected people to opine on where they think the analogy is apt and where it may not be.  Why else would he have posted it here?  

Well, I'm hard to insult and the original author of the analogy isn't even on the board. So yeah, opine away. Though I would hope that we would at least try to see the point of the OP.

[bcuzbcuz]

I would agree with the poster(s) who find the analogy falls short of being a good analogy, because I think "cougar's den" has never seen a crayon masterpiece. Google the term 'crayon masterpiece'' and see what you get. My favorite is Degas' balett scene.

[strappinglad]

Well, we do have to make sure we strain out that gnat while we gnaw on that camel's hump. Analogy stretching keeps one limber for the real fight.

[Garden Girl]

For my part, I presumed the OP posted this expecting analysis of the analogy.  Buzzard's been around plenty long enough to know this isn't Facebook or Pinterest. I imagine he expected people to opine on where they think the analogy is apt and where it may not be.  Why else would he have posted it here?  

 

Hello MnG...

For me, I simply presumed the original OP posted to share something that worked for him and how it helped him to be able to remain in his faith... I didn't see it as an invitation to others to analyze his analogy but perhaps to think about their own path...

 

GG

Edited December 13, 2013 by Garden Girl

[BlueDreams]

I would agree with the poster(s) who find the analogy falls short of being a good analogy, because I think "cougar's den" has never seen a crayon masterpiece. Google the term 'crayon masterpiece'' and see what you get. My favorite is Degas' balett scene.

 

Well, personally....as someone who paints and draws plenty, I would say both the analogy and the critiques are lacking in active experience with making art. Degas crayon masterworks are definitely not the same as drawing with waxy crayola crayons...Which is probably what the original person meant. And yes, you can still get some fabulous effects with crayola crayons too (Exhibit A). You can also do well with cheap craft paint. I used both when there was nothing else that I could use. But there are still some massive limitations to it and just because you do well in paint, charcoal, and pencil doesn't necessitate that that same talent will express itself well in crayons....they have completely different techniques. I like the overall idea presented. If you're expecting the mona lisa when what is given is crayons, you're going to be sorely disappointed. You can't get the mona lisa with crayons....even if they are good at art. (randomly found the mona lisa in crayon while googling images).

 

 

I don't think the mona lisa would be indicative of say Jesus (Ie. the greatest artwork ever...that's not how art rolls ). But it could also be used analogously to point out a different dispensation type of idea. Ie. mona lisa was great for then, but our crayon issued selves should probably branch out and expect different results.  

 

Overall I like the analogy, it's limited, but it's good and it works for him... so why not?

 

 

I do, overall, like the basic idea that expecting perfection from the earthly church is not an apt expectation.

 

 

With luv,

BD  

[pmccombs1]

Hello MnG...

For me, I simply presumed the original OP posted to share something that worked for him and how it helped him to be able to remain in his faith... I didn't see it as an invitation to others to analyze his analogy but perhaps to think about their own path...

 

GG

 

When I share my ideas with friends and well-wishers, I expect praise and support from them. When I share them among critics and skeptics, I expect criticism and discussion.

 

I find that my personal intentions for sharing something matter much less than the forum in which it is shared and the audience to which it is directed. The forum itself is the invitation--pearls before swine and all that. If an author wishes only glowing praises to be heaped upon his ideas, then he should find a choir to preach them to. I have noticed that this forum has many different choirs, a fact that I find rather refreshing.

 

But I digress from the topic.  I was rather hoping someone else would chime in about execution vs. content... The "imperfect church" argument does not work for me, regardless of the many hours/days/months/years I spend thinking about my own path.

[Calm]

When I share my ideas with friends and well-wishers, I expect praise and support from them.

I would find that extraordinarily boring and annoying if I never got negative feedback. I prefer realistic criticism in hand with the support.

[Calm]

So if "imperfect church" doesn't work, does that mean you believe the church (of your choice) to be perfect and if so, how would that actually work?

[pmccombs1]

I would find that extraordinarily boring and annoying if I never got negative feedback. I prefer realistic criticism in hand with the support.

 

Fair enough.

[pmccombs1]

So if "imperfect church" doesn't work, does that mean you believe the church (of your choice) to be perfect and if so, how would that actually work?

 

No, that's not quite what I mean.  I understand the imperfect church analogy, and I'm fine with it so long as the thing that is imperfect is still the right kind of thing. In theory, I would be happy with an imperfect church if it were but a glimpse of the kingdom of heaven, rather than a glimpse of some other kingdom.

 

Let me try another parable: 

 

The kingdom of heaven is like unto a chocolate Labrador retriever. So the children of God, wholly convinced that they possessed the directive and authority of their master, and desiring to possess also the kingdom, began to draw pictures of ostriches with crayons under the direction of the Holy Oracles. At first their efforts were poor and their ostriches shabby. They said, lo, our kingdom falleth short of perfection. Yea, if we try harder we shall obtain. Thus they perfected the program and followed all of the rules as revealed by the Holy Oracles; and they graduated from crayons to 3D digital rendering, line upon line and precept upon precept; and behold, at last they produced a likeness of the True Ostrich, which strutted in its glory. And the Lord, seeing the works of His children, saith....