Ahab Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Nothing compelled Christ to go through the Atonement. He could have chosen not to go through with it. If He had, then the prophecy would have been unfulfilled and we would be in really dire straits.If Christ had not fulfilled that prophecy it would not have been a prophecy in the first place. God only tells us what will happen, even when God tells us the qualifiers for what will cause something to happen. Of course each one of us has to make certain choices for certain things to happen, but God already knows what we will choose which is how God already knows what is going to happen. And it's not that God takes away our power to choose but that he knows how we are going to use our power to choose. Just as he knew Christ was going to be the Savior of the world before he came to Earth to fulfill our Father's will, because he knew our Savior that well.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Something to consider, and perhaps leading to what can and cannot be known about the future, D&C 130:7 says, “all things for their glory,” which refers to all the things that have constituted, and do and will constitute the program of immortality and eternal life (Moses 1:39). This system, or course, of immortality and eternal life is the “one eternal round” of God and is therefore “continually before the Lord,” meaning it never ends. I'm not sure what your argument is, can you explain? It could even be said that all the Lord’s references to His knowledge in Moses Chapter 1 (vs. 6, 35) are in terms of the present, not the past or future. His references to what He created (vs. 8, 32, 33) are naturally all in the past. His references to what He will do in the future (vs. 4, 40, 41) are based on faith. The problem is that God does not only reveal his future works, but ours as well. Nephi saw all things from the beginning to the end ans did John. They saw both the works of God and the works of man before they happened. I can understand having faith in what God says he will do, but what about the foreknowledge of our works? The fact that we have agency means that his foreknowledge of our actions is not based on faith but simply on foreknowledge.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Note the use of the words “should” and “if” in relation to His hopes for His children. I consider the book of revelations to be set in stone. No should's or if's. This is prophecy based on foreknowledge not hope. God "knows" what will happen, His surety is the basis of my faith. I also believe that He has the power to make course corrections when necessary (for some unforeseen reason!) There is no unforeseen's with God. To imply that God makes "corrections" is to imply that God is imperfect and fallible.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 P. P. SWhich brings to mind that faith and hope are two of God's attributes and are not perfect knowledge. Now that's an interesting thought. However, we read in Alma 32 that both hope and faith mature into a "perfect knowledge" Surely, God's hope and faith has matured to that point.
Calm Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Changed, if you want to know who gave you rep points, click on the rep number and a pop up will list the names. 1
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 P.P.P.S.Here's a great example from D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice [God's or an angel's] declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832. Interesting example. "Voice" in scripture is often in reference to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes revelations, whether by vision, voice, or any other means, are not fully understood in their fullness at first. Take Lehi's vision for example. Nephi expanded Lehi's vision, saying that his father was distracted at the time and didn't notice certain aspects of the revelation. That could have been the case with Joseph here.
Rob Osborn Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 No, it is not that you have no free will, but that God knows how you are going to choose to do with your own free will. His knowledge of what you will do doesn't alter what you will choose. No, it's not no matter what, but because of what he chose to do. God knowing what he would choose doesn't equate to God making his choices for him. Quite the contrary, God knew Satan would do what he did regardless of what God wanted Satan to do. Silly man. Go ahead and try it to see how far it will get you. I'm sure Satan would be rooting for you, though. Have fun with that. Wow. And all of this just because you don't understand how God can know everything you will choose to do. He even knew you were going to say this. Hopefully he also knows you will change your mind later when you see the light, I hope, and you realize you were wrong about this. So, you think God would know beforeheand in perfection how the dice will fall and in exact number sequence that I roll a million times in a row? I don't think anyone could know that. My agecny coupled with my intelligence is not calculated as a perfect math equation of which would be necessary to be able to know such a feat beforehand. Do you believe God ever makes decisions?
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Interesting example. "Voice" in scripture is often in reference to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes revelations, whether by vision, voice, or any other means, are not fully understood in their fullness at first. Take Lehi's vision for example. Nephi expanded Lehi's vision, saying that his father was distracted at the time and didn't notice certain aspects of the revelation. That could have been the case with Joseph here. Furthermore, I might give this more thought if every prophecy was presented in this fashion of "perhaps/maybe it might happen this way", but this is not consistent with the rest of scripture. What he speaks happens, there is no maybe about it.
Ahab Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 So, you think God would know beforeheand in perfection how the dice will fall and in exact number sequence that I roll a million times in a row?Yes. I don't think anyone could know that.That's the problem. You think that because you don't know that then that means God doesn't know that, either. But God knows more than you know. My agency coupled with my intelligence is not calculated as a perfect math equation of which would be necessary to be able to know such a feat beforehand.I don't know enough about math to know whether or not it could be put in mathematical terms, or what the equation would be, but there is a way for God to know every factor that would determine how that would work out. And for him it's as if it has already happened if that is something you will ever be doing in the future. As it is now it's just a thought in your head and you have never rolled any dice a million times in a row, and God knows if it it will ever happen in the future. Do you believe God ever makes decisions?Yes, and he already knows what he will be choosing to do in the future just as well as he knows what he has chosen to do in the past.
Rob Osborn Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 So what do we make of the prophecy- 10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall asin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be blifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and cmurders, and dpriestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall ereject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them. 11 And then will I aremember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. 12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the aknowledge of the fulness of my gospel. 13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be anumbered among my people, O house of Israel. 14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father. 15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall atread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel. This is an either/or situation.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 So what do we make of the prophecy- At that day when the Gentiles shall asin against my gospel... This is not an either/or situation. Keep in mind this is speaking collectively and not individually. Not all gentiles will reject the gospel. He acknowledges that here: 13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be anumbered among my people, O house of Israel... This is a promise to those gentiles who do accept the gospel. If there is ever an either or prophecy, it is to teach us about the consequences of our actions to guide us into righteous paths. What do you make of 1 Nephi 11-15? No either/or. He said it would be so, and so it was and so it will be.
Rob Osborn Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 Yes. That's the problem. You think that because you don't know that then that means God doesn't know that, either. But God knows more than you know. I don't know enough about math to know whether or not it could be put in mathematical terms, or what the equation would be, but there is a way for God to know every factor that would determine how that would work out. And for him it's as if it has already happened if that is something you will ever be doing in the future. As it is now it's just a thought in your head and you have never rolled any dice a million times in a row, and God knows if it it will ever happen in the future. Yes, and he already knows what he will be choosing to do in the future just as well as he knows what he has chosen to do in the past. If God makes decisions then he cat have a perfect knowledge of future events. God can't know how dice will be rolled by an agent. We disagree here obviously but it is at the very heart of agency and /or predestination.
CV75 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 I'm not sure what your argument is, can you explain? The problem is that God does not only reveal his future works, but ours as well. Nephi saw all things from the beginning to the end ans did John. They saw both the works of God and the works of man before they happened. I can understand having faith in what God says he will do, but what about the foreknowledge of our works? The fact that we have agency means that his foreknowledge of our actions is not based on faith but simply on foreknowledge. I have no argument for D&C 130:7, just an alternative observation from yours. I don’t think it is an example of God revealing the future to us, but a description of what it means to have all things pertaining to His glory, which are present before Him, available to others. The term “all things past, present and future” is a reference to His eternal and unchanging course (or immortality and eternal life), and is not a reference to non-eternal and changing things. When the prophets see the “future works” of God, they are seeing what He has planned, not what He has actually effectuated. His faith in His own plan, and His faith in us (for all His children have the capacity to choose the right course) to execute them by His power are the basis for what He says will happen. Foreknowledge, whether human or divine, is really another word for faith, since faith leads to knowledge. See http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d037f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____ “Without faith worlds could not have been made; without it they could not be held in their positions; but by faith all things are possible with God and with man.” This teaching is not unique to President Joseph F. Smith. I consider the book of revelations to be set in stone. No should's or if's. This is prophecy based on foreknowledge not hope. God "knows" what will happen, His surety is the basis of my faith. There is no unforeseen's with God. To imply that God makes "corrections" is to imply that God is imperfect and fallible.I take the Book of Revelation to be set in stone inasmuch as it is a record of God's revealed plan to John. God has perfect faith and perfect knowledge, each with their respective "temporal" objects. God makes corrections based on His children's fallibility, not His own. is plan is perfect, His knowledge of His plan is perfect, and His faith in His plan is perfect. His faith in us is also perfect inasmuch as He knows we have the agency to choose Him, but obviously sometimes He is dissapointed (Moses 7:31-33). But as long as we have agency, we have the other elements that pertain to it as described in D&C 93 (intelligence, light, truth, knowledge) which God can only have if we surrender it to Him (See http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/knowing-the-lords-will-for-you?lang=eng "The submission of one’s will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God’s altar. The many other things we ‘give,’ … are actually the things He has already given or loaned to us. However, when you and I finally submit ourselves, by letting our individual wills be swallowed up in God’s will, then we are really giving something to Him! It is the only possession which is truly ours to give"). Now that's an interesting thought. However, we read in Alma 32 that both hope and faith mature into a "perfect knowledge" Surely, God's hope and faith has matured to that point. I take the compound of faith and knowledge to be an eternal principle, along with the principle of opposition: faith and knowledge oppose each other and a most complimentary way, which is also taught in Alma 32. Interesting example. "Voice" in scripture is often in reference to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes revelations, whether by vision, voice, or any other means, are not fully understood in their fullness at first. Take Lehi's vision for example. Nephi expanded Lehi's vision, saying that his father was distracted at the time and didn't notice certain aspects of the revelation. That could have been the case with Joseph here.As could have been the case with John in writing Revelation... But either way one might look at the prophets' level of understanding, their attention to detail has nothing to do with establishing God's knowledge or faith, just their ability to convey what He has said by way of knowledge or faith.
pogi Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) CV75, To clarify, you are saying: God's foreknowledge is really just faith, correct? Are you implying an element of uncertainty by this, I am not sure? Lets play with it a little. Can one have faith in something that is untrue or uncertain? No. His foreknowledge (or faith as you call it) is therefore a certain reality. If this is true, there is no need for any corrections or a plan B, or else you are implying a false faith. Your theory suggests that it is God's faith, and not our agency, that causes the future choices of man, because his foreknowledge (faith) is not limited to His works alone, but to ours as well. If His faith causes both His future works and ours, where is agency? His faith in His own plan, and His faith in us... are the basis for what He says will happen. God makes corrections based on His children's fallibility, not His own. If we are fallible and our future is uncertain, as you suggest, then how can God have a perfect faith in us? We are too unreliable for a perfect being to place his perfect faith in, which implies perfect trust in us also. He does not have faith in us, but He has a foreknowledge of our actions. This allows for us to retain agency and for God to retain a perfectly infallible faith and foreknowledge. The second problem with this statement is that you suggest that the fallibility of man can somehow thwart or disrupt the original plan of God, thereby causing him to make corrections. It also implies that God's original plan must have been based on the premise that we would be perfectly obedient. Surely, his plan accounted for our fallibility the first time. God has already foreseen the fallibility of man and his imperfect actions and choices. He has already taken this all into account with his original plan, making his plan perfect and incorruptible by man. Edited December 4, 2013 by pogi
Ahab Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) If God makes decisions then he cat have a perfect knowledge of future events.God can't know how dice will be rolled by an agent. We disagree here obviously but it is at the very heart of agency and /or predestination.Maybe we have different ideas about what a decision is. He already knows everything all there is to know about what is good and evil so it's not like he wavers back and forth not sure of himself or the situation when coming to a decision about what he will do. When he acts he considers all of the variables in the situation and he does what he does because it is the best thing to do in that situation. If that's not what you call a decision then what would you call it? And yes he can know how dice will be rolled by an agent. Where are you getting the idea that God can't know that? Edited December 4, 2013 by Ahab
CV75 Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) CV75, To clarify, you are saying: God's foreknowledge is really just faith, correct? Are you implying an element of uncertainty by this, I am not sure? Lets play with it a little. Can one have faith in something that is untrue or uncertain? No. His foreknowledge (or faith as you call it) is therefore a certain reality. If this is true, there is no need for any corrections or a plan B, or else you are implying a false faith. Your theory suggests that it is God's faith, and not our agency, that causes the future choices of man, because his foreknowledge (faith) is not limited to His works alone, but to ours as well. If His faith causes both His future works and ours, where is agency? If we are fallible and our future is uncertain, as you suggest, then how can God have a perfect faith in us? We are too unreliable for a perfect being to place his perfect faith in, which implies perfect trust in us also. He does not have faith in us, but He has a foreknowledge of our actions. This allows for us to retain agency and for God to retain a perfectly infallible faith and foreknowledge. The second problem with this statement is that you suggest that the fallibility of man can somehow thwart or disrupt the original plan of God, thereby causing him to make corrections. It also implies that God's original plan must have been based on the premise that we would be perfectly obedient. Surely, his plan accounted for our fallibility the first time. God has already foreseen the fallibility of man and his imperfect actions and choices. He has already taken this all into account with his original plan, making his plan perfect and incorruptible by man. I would never refer to faith as “just” faith, where even a “grain” can move mountains and pluck up and transplant sycamore trees in the sea. It is as important and as powerful as knowledge. There is no uncertainty in faith; faith and doubt cannot coexist on the same subject in the same mind; and God’s faith is perfect. It is the precursor to knowledge, and His work and glory is the link between the two as He puts faith in Himself, His works continue and the fruit of His faith is knowledge as His works materialize (See Hebrews 6;13). I believe there is no uncertainty on His part. Regarding Plan Bs: The preparation for the 116 lost pages is a good example in my estimation. Plan A was that no one would interfere. Plan B is Mormon’s insertion of the small plates. Plan C (and who knows how many plans beyond that) may well have been found in the sealed portion in the event more and more sections of the translation were lost. If the pages were not lost, the inserted small plates would still serve a “wise purpose,” but one other than merely substituting for Lehi’s record. The Lord’s explanation in D&C 10 is not necessarily the only contingency He was preparing for. It was not to be His plan that was frustrated, but He was prepared for men’s failure in the event they heeded whatever disruptions Satan would attempt. God’s faith brings about His work and glory. Each person’s individual agency brings about the realization of that work and glory (or failure thereof, even if by degrees of glory) for himself. The Atonement guarantees exaltation for every child of God if they will but choose it. God has perfect faith in our ability to choose exaltation. In the beginning He expressed perfect faith in His Son’s Atonement, which has since been realized, and so He now knows that His Son performed the Atonement which is capable of exalting all His children. Perhaps the moment where He hid His face while Jesus was about to perish on the cross was that moment when He exerted the greatest faith, which was rewarded when Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father. There have been other posts about the relationship between suffering, agency and overcoming all things in Christ, so I won’t go into those. Only willful disobedience can thwart God’s plan for oneself. God’s plan is not to condemn but to exalt us. When we walk by the light of our own sparks, we find condemnation, not exaltation by carrying out our own plans (Isaiah 50: 7-11). When we do this, we don’t affect God’s plan at all; He still abides in and by the same plan (the course that is one eternal round). Edited December 5, 2013 by CV75
pogi Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 This theory makes sense to me if it is purely based on God's foreknowledge (faith) of His future works and not ours. I am still unclear however how God could know with certainty about our future choices based on His faith. Can you explain? You say that he has perfect faith in our ability to choose exaltation, how does this convert to a perfect foreknowledge of our future choices as demonstrated over and over again in scripture? I see what you are saying about your plan B scenario, but you are not taking into account that plan B was created 1,500 years before the pages were lost. He did not make corrections after the fact, but He actually foresaw the failure of man before it even happened. This demonstrates my point in that God does foresee how we will use our agency. So really, your plan B is really apart of foresight A. Do you see what I mean? His foresight and foreknowledge of these events never changed because of the fallibility of man.
pogi Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) This was interesting, from Elder Maxwell at BYU in 1978: Prophecies foreshadow events without determining the outcome, because of a divine foreseeing of outcomes. So foreordination is a conditional bestowal of a role, a responsibility, or a blessing which, likewise, foresees but does not fix the outcome. There have been those who have failed or who have been treasonous to their trust, such as David, Solomon, and Judas. God foresaw the fall of David, but was not the cause of it. It was David who saw Bathsheba from the balcony and sent for her. But neither was God surprised by such a sad development. God foresaw, but did not cause, Martin Harris’s loss of certain pages of the translated Book of Mormon; God made plans to cope with failure over 1,500 years before it was to occur! (See preface to D&C 10 and W of M) Thus, foreordination is clearly no excuse for fatalism, or arrogance, or the abuse of agency. It is not, however, a doctrine that can be ignored simply because it is difficult. Indeed, deep inside the hardest doctrines are some of the pearls of greatest price. ...foreknowledge is so perfect it leaves the realm of prediction and enters the realm of prophecy. The Lord, who was able to say to his disciples, “Cast the net on the right side of the ship” (John 21:6), knew beforehand that there was a multitude of fishes there. If he knew beforehand the movements and whereabouts of fishes in the little Sea of Tiberias, should it offend us that he knows beforehand which mortals will come into the gospel net? It does no violence even to our frail human logic to observe that there cannot be a grand plan of salvation for all mankind, unless there is also a plan for each individual. The salvational sum will reflect all its parts. Once the believer acknowledges that the past, present, and future are before God simultaneously—even though we do not understand how—then the doctrine of foreordination may be seen somewhat more clearly. For instance, it was necessary for God to know how the economic difficulties and crop failures of the Joseph Smith, Sr. family in New England would move this special family to the Cumorah vicinity where the Book of Mormon plates were buried. God’s plans could scarcely have so unfolded if—willy-nilly—the Smiths had been born Manchurians and if, meanwhile, the plates had been buried in Belgium! The Lord would need to have perfect comprehension of all the military and political developments in the Middle East—some of which are unfolding even now—which would combine to bring to pass a latter-day condition in which “all nations” will be gathered “against Jerusalem to battle” (Zech. 14:2). It should not surprise us that the Lord, who notices the fall of each sparrow and the hair from every head, would know centuries before how much money Judas would receive—thirty pieces of silver—at the time he betrayed the Savior. (See Matt. 26:15, Matt. 27:3, Zech. 11:12.) Quite understandably, the manner in which things unfold seems to us mortals to be so natural. Our not knowing what is to come (in the perfect way that God knows it) thus preserves our free agency completely. When, through a process we call inspiration and revelation, we are permitted at times to tap that divine databank, we are accessing, for the narrow purposes at hand, the knowledge of God. No wonder that experience is so unforgettable! “And all things are present with me, for I know them all” (Moses 1:6). God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. Moreover, since “all things are present with” God, his is not simply a predicting based solely upon the past. In ways which are not clear to us, he actually sees, rather than foresees,the future—because all things are, at once, present, before him! http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/02/a-more-determined-discipleship?lang=eng&query=foreknowledge Edited December 5, 2013 by pogi
webbles Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 Now it sounds like you are saying that Jesus was coerced. What about the prophecy of the destruction of the Nephites, did God work to make that happen? What about the prophecy that Judas would betray Christ, was that God's handy work? To say that God "makes" his prophecies come true strips us of agency. You will have to show me the prophecy that didn't come true. I remember God telling Jonah to go tell the people to repent. Any doubt that Jonah may have had is not prophetic. Jonah 1:1-21 Now the word of the Lord came unto aJonah the son of Amittai, saying,2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and acry against it; for their bwickedness is come up before me. No indication of telling them to repent. Jonah 3:1-41 And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying,2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and apreach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an aexceeding great city of three days’ bjourney.4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. No indication of telling them to repent either. In fact, the actual prophecy is "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.". Nineveh wasn't overthrown in 40 days. And Jonah was angry at God because his prophecy didn't come to pass (Jonah 4:1). The prophecy of Jonah had no conditions. It was an absolute. 40 days, Nineveh overthrown. And it didn't happen. Now, you might say that there was an implicit condition of repentance. And that's fine. That's how I see it. Every single prophecy has an implicit/explicit condition of obedience or rejection. The Nephites could have repented and not been destroyed. But they choose to be wicked. God didn't work to make them wicked, he just knew that when people go through what they want through, they would most likely be wicked. He worked to help them be righteous and make the prophecy not come to pass. Christ could have chosen to be wicked. God worked to help Him be righteous and go through with the Atonement. But if Christ had chosen not to, then the prophecy would not come to pass and the world would be naught. There is always choice. Prophecies are not set in stone. Either the prophecy has an explicit conditional or it has an implicit conditional.
webbles Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 Maybe we have different ideas about what a decision is. He already knows everything all there is to know about what is good and evil so it's not like he wavers back and forth not sure of himself or the situation when coming to a decision about what he will do. When he acts he considers all of the variables in the situation and he does what he does because it is the best thing to do in that situation. If that's not what you call a decision then what would you call it? And yes he can know how dice will be rolled by an agent. Where are you getting the idea that God can't know that? If he knows how the dice will roll, then that means that the agent is deterministic. And a deterministic being doesn't have agency. A deterministic being is just reacting to previous events and the environment. A deterministic being is just a program, following its instructions. Determinism doesn't allow agency; it only allows the illusion of agency.
webbles Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) Jonah 1:1-2 No indication of telling them to repent. Jonah 3:1-4 No indication of telling them to repent either. In fact, the actual prophecy is "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.". Nineveh wasn't overthrown in 40 days. And Jonah was angry at God because his prophecy didn't come to pass (Jonah 4:1). The prophecy of Jonah had no conditions. It was an absolute. 40 days, Nineveh overthrown. And it didn't happen. Now, you might say that there was an implicit condition of repentance. And that's fine. That's how I see it. Every single prophecy has an implicit/explicit condition of obedience or rejection. The Nephites could have repented and not been destroyed. But they choose to be wicked. God didn't work to make them wicked, he just knew that when people go through what they want through, they would most likely be wicked. He worked to help them be righteous and make the prophecy not come to pass. Christ could have chosen to be wicked. God worked to help Him be righteous and go through with the Atonement. But if Christ had chosen not to, then the prophecy would not come to pass and the world would be naught. There is always choice. Prophecies are not set in stone. Either the prophecy has an explicit conditional or it has an implicit conditional. And to add to what I said, fair wiki has some other examples: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/The_prophetic_test_in_Deuteronomy_18 And it also points out Jeremiah 18:7-10 saying that God can reverse or revoke His prophecies and 1 Samuel 2:30 where He actual does do that. Edited December 5, 2013 by webbles
Rob Osborn Posted December 5, 2013 Author Posted December 5, 2013 Maybe we have different ideas about what a decision is. He already knows everything all there is to know about what is good and evil so it's not like he wavers back and forth not sure of himself or the situation when coming to a decision about what he will do. When he acts he considers all of the variables in the situation and he does what he does because it is the best thing to do in that situation. If that's not what you call a decision then what would you call it? And yes he can know how dice will be rolled by an agent. Where are you getting the idea that God can't know that? The mere fact that God makes decisions means that there are variables in the future that can be chosen. Because that fact exists the future itself is not set in stone. I look at the future as it having definite points that meet goals according to God's will but there are a myriad of pathways that slightly differ or can differ and still achieve the same end result. How could God know before I even begin to roll the dice what I will roll? There are endless variables that I could do each time and thus endless possibilities. How could God choose exactly my every action down to the atomic level and exact nanosecond of every action in relation to relative space where it will all be?
Rob Osborn Posted December 5, 2013 Author Posted December 5, 2013 “And all things are present with me, for I know them all” (Moses 1:6). God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. Moreover, since “all things are present with” God, his is not simply a predicting based solely upon the past. In ways which are not clear to us, he actually sees, rather than foresees,the future—because all things are, at once, present, before him! God isn't outside of time in the sense that the past present and future all exist at the same time before him. He is outside of time as it relates to our reckoning (His reckoning being different than ours) and as far as it relates to aging and dying of which he is not part of. I see God who can see the past, see the present and see the possible future through his seer ability. God is every much in the "present" just as you and I otherwise there is no existence.
Rob Osborn Posted December 5, 2013 Author Posted December 5, 2013 If he knows how the dice will roll, then that means that the agent is deterministic. And a deterministic being doesn't have agency. A deterministic being is just reacting to previous events and the environment. A deterministic being is just a program, following its instructions. Determinism doesn't allow agency; it only allows the illusion of agency. Exactly.
pogi Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 There is always choice. Prophecies are not set in stone. Either the prophecy has an explicit conditional or it has an implicit conditional. I have said over and over that yes, there is always a choice. We choose our future not God. Please read my post with Maxwell's talk. God knows what we will choose. Lets not dilute God's foreknowledge to mere predictions. I admit that prophecies are not the same as God's foreknowledge. They may be used sometimes to show us our options and teach us about consequences. God, however, already knows what we will pick. There is no way around this truth.
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