Towards A Better Understanding Of Agency

[pogi]

If he knows how the dice will roll, then that means that the agent is deterministic.  And a deterministic being doesn't have agency.  A deterministic being is just reacting to previous events and the environment.  A deterministic being is just a program, following its instructions.  Determinism doesn't allow agency; it only allows the illusion of agency.

 

Causing the dice to roll a certain way is deterministic, knowing how they will be rolled is not.  Please read my post by Maxwell, he explains this further.

[pogi]

God isn't outside of time in the sense that the past present and future all exist at the same time before him. He is outside of time as it relates to our reckoning (His reckoning being different than ours) and as far as it relates to aging and dying of which he is not part of. I see God who can see the past, see the present and see the possible future through his seer ability. God is every much in the "present" just as you and I otherwise there is no existence.

 

So, what you are saying is that God doesn't know my actual future, He only knows my infinite possible futures, and makes predictions based on my past.  am I understanding you right? 

[pogi]

How could God know before I even begin to roll the dice what I will roll? There are endless variables that I could do each time and thus endless possibilities. How could God choose exactly my every action down to the atomic level and exact nanosecond of every action in relation to relative space where it will all be?

 

One word - omniscient. His omniscience is not limited by time.

 

If God foresaw the 112 pages being lost before Martin Harris was even born, do you really question his ability?  How could He know that if he only knows our possible futures?

[Rob Osborn]

Causing the dice to roll a certain way is deterministic, knowing how they will be rolled is not.  Please read my post by Maxwell, he explains this further.

What determines when I randomly throw the dice and how I throw them? Is it something in my past? Maybe, maybe not. Is it the certain way i roll them? Well, I can change that every time. So what is it that makes it deterministic for God to know? If it were somehow possible that God "just knows" then what mechanism is it that causes him to know? If it is to work at all there would have to be a set of perfect math equations or calculations that are generated predicting perfectly my every move based on past statistics of how I work. It can't be just because of destiny because we do not believe in pre-destiny. So it has to deal with how we interact with our environment. This is at the very heart of it all. God can't know how I will randomly roll dice each and every time a million times in a row before I begin rolling. There are things God can know and other things He can't know and that is entirely because He creates us to act not to be acted upon- we have moral agency. He may know the moment I throw the dice what it will be based on physics. He may also use his persuasion to adjust how and when I throw the dice thus coming out exactly to what he predicts. But, without his interaction, I am left to my agency as to how, when, where and with what force I roll the dice all of which I can endlessly manipulate each and every time. If I trly have agency then this would be a test to prove just that. If God can't accuratly predict the dice roll any better than you or I then we know we have true agency.

[Rob Osborn]

So, what you are saying is that God doesn't know my actual future, He only knows my infinite possible futures, and makes predictions based on my past.  am I understanding you right?

I think God can make pretty good predictions as to how you will turn out based on the actions of your past. The longer we go on to exist and are tried through a myriad of events the better that prediction will be. God works off of faith just as you or I. He places faith in us and those whom have proved themselves more he places more trust. The entire Kingdom of heaven is run on faith, hope, and trust in others around us- that is the strength of heaven and the ultimate power of God.

[Rob Osborn]

One word - omniscient. His omniscience is not limited by time.

 

If God foresaw the 112 pages being lost before Martin Harris was even born, do you really question his ability?  How could He know that if he only knows our possible futures?

How do we know that Martin Harris in the pre-existence didn't go around with an attitude that showed he more than likey would lose them? How do we know God's spies knew Satan's plans to try to disrupt God's plans with Martin Harris and so God secretly adjusted this and caused the plates to be separate? Too many unknown variables to conclude the how and why of it all. I do know God is the best chess player there is because He uses a lot of experience coupled with a vast intelligence bank to rely upon. But even that vast knowledge can't predict the future for certainty in every exact thing.

[Robert F. Smith]

But all of your bad choices have helped you to learn some valuable lessons.  And it's still not too late for you to benefit from what you have learned.

Yeh, you're right Ahab, but it doesn't really lessen the sting of knowing that I have so often snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.

[Rob Osborn]

one other paradox to keep in mind concerning the idea that God knows everything that can ever be played out-

If God knows everything pertaining to futurity then he has an endless collection of events that he knows about. But, if one were counting events from any given point in time forward, then it is impossible that he could ever know all of them because that would be numberless and yet all the events counted to any point is always numbered. So, he could really only know numbered events and not really have an actual comprehensible numberless collection of events. This boils down to the inescapable fact that the farthest future event forward in time can never be known because it will never be attained. Thus by this sound logic, God can only know or be certain with a certain amount of numbered events into the future. "Everything pertaining to the future" is an enigma that cannot be known because there is no endpoint and where there is no endpoint it is impossible to completely know.

[CV75]

This theory makes sense to me if it is purely based on God's foreknowledge (faith) of His future works and not ours.  I am still unclear however how God could know with certainty about our future choices based on His faith.   Can you explain?

 

You say that he has perfect faith in our ability to choose exaltation, how does this convert to a perfect foreknowledge of our future choices as demonstrated over and over again in scripture?  

 

I see what you are saying about your plan B scenario, but you are not taking into account that plan B was created 1,500 years before the pages were lost.  He did not make corrections after the fact, but He actually foresaw the failure of man before it even happened.  This demonstrates my point in that God does foresee how we will use our agency.  So really, your plan B is really apart of foresight A.  Do you see what I mean?  His foresight and foreknowledge of these events never changed because of the fallibility of man.

God knows with certainty about our future choices once we’ve made them. He has perfect faith in our ability to align our future choices with His eternal course, and He already knows what this course is (the eternal round) because He experiencing it and it would be the same for all of us. He has already guaranteed its realization through the merits of His Son, on condition we choose Him. Anything that is conditional is not pre-set, and He can live with that. So we have a guarantee and a condition, which are two complementing, opposing parts of an eternal compound principle in one, along corresponding to knowledge and faith, respectively.

Maybe if I say that knowledge is experienced rather than an object that is held or contained might make a difference. “I think, therefore I am / I know, therefore I be.” Godliness is all about being, and this is what God knows (and what He knows about: being God). The Gospel is about what we are to be and to become. This relates to the idea that truth is objective in that we can never advance beyond God, but truth is subjective in that it is whatever we perceive it to be, and whatever God perceives it to be is in His embodiment of it.

Perfect knowledge, even God’s, is only attained after faith is applied. You’ll have to give me some examples of perfect foreknowledge (which I take to be faith) of our future choices. I suppose the examples will show that when we fulfill God’s will, His perfect foreknowledge is rewarded with perfect knowledge.

I do see what you mean, but I don't share that perspective. Portions of the plates themselves could well have been lost anytime between Mormon’s last handling of his abridgement and Joseph Smith recovering them. The insertion of the small plates as well as the sealed portion would have addressed any number of possible losses, whenever they occurred. And even if they were never to be used to replace lost plates or manuscripts, they would still fulfill a wise purpose.

Foresight is yet another attribute, and I see it as neither knowledge nor faith, but a calculation. I think God has perfect foresight as well as perfect knowledge and perfect faith or foreknowledge.

[CV75]

It should not surprise us that the Lord, who notices the fall of each sparrow and the hair from every head, would know centuries before how much money Judas would receive—thirty pieces of silver—at the time he betrayed the Savior. (See Matt. 26:15, Matt. 27:3, Zech. 11:12.)

I like this example because it shows that this was the Lord's plan all along, and He worked to fulfill the conditions of its fulfillment without doing violence to anyone's agency.

[pogi]

God knows with certainty about our future choices once we’ve made them.

 

In other words, God doesn't have a foreknowledge of our future choices.  He is no different from you or I in that regard, in that he only knows what people will choose once they have chosen, right?

 

One example is Judas.  2 choices were made, one was to betray Christ for 40 pieces of silver, the other was to offer 40 pieces of silver.  These choices were known with certainty long before they were ever made.  The accuracy in the account from the prophetic foreknowledge cannot be explained except through a perfect foreknowledge of our choices by God.  To say otherwise would be to say that God caused or coerced these choices of betrayal in order to fulfill prophecy.  You can't convince me of that. 

Edited December 5, 2013 by pogi

[Ahab]

Yeh, you're right Ahab, but it doesn't really lessen the sting of knowing that I have so often snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Think of how the apostle Paul felt after realize he had been persecuting or helping to persecute our Lord's disciples in his early days.

 

I've done a lot of really stupid things in my past, too, and while it still irks me a little, I am also very glad that I learned what I learned after going through those mistakes and that I now have some experience to help me to not make those mistakes in the future again.

 

We are here to learn, and we either learn the easy way or the hard way through experience as we learn the difference between good and evil as we exercise our own agency.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Ahab

[Ahab]

How do we know that Martin Harris in the pre-existence didn't go around with an attitude that showed he more than likey would lose them? How do we know God's spies knew Satan's plans to try to disrupt God's plans with Martin Harris and so God secretly adjusted this and caused the plates to be separate? Too many unknown variables to conclude the how and why of it all. I do know God is the best chess player there is because He uses a lot of experience coupled with a vast intelligence bank to rely upon. But even that vast knowledge can't predict the future for certainty in every exact thing.

At least you're now wondering "how" he does it, instead of just repeatedly saying that he can't possibly know the future.

 

I don't know exactly how he does it, either, but I do know it has something to do with how intelligent he is and that he knows all of us more than most of us know he knows us.

[CV75]

In other words, God doesn't have a foreknowledge of our future choices.  He is no different from you or I in that regard, in that he only knows what people will choose once they have chosen, right?

 

One example is Judas.  2 choices were made, one was to betray Christ for 40 pieces of silver, the other was to offer 40 pieces of silver.  These choices were known with certainty long before they were ever made.  The accuracy in the account from the prophetic foreknowledge cannot be explained except through a perfect foreknowledge of our choices by God.  To say otherwise would be to say that God caused or coerced these choices of betrayal in order to fulfill prophecy.  You can't convince me of that.

Pretty much, I guess—except 1) He knows that exaltation is clearly one of our choices (and I’m not sure for whom is it yet a future choice—we already made the choice in our first estate to qualify for being here); and 2) He also knows and has faith in what it is like to be Him (God). Whatever it is that He doesn’t know doesn’t make Him not-God. What I think He doesn’t know is who will yet reject or realize exaltation (despite present appearances) until all He has done in His foresight to keep our options open has been exhausted.

I’m not sure you can use this as an example considering the examples of fallibility and lack of accuracy you pointed out for other scriptural records of prophecy about the future. You just made the same mistake yourself—it was 30, not 40 pieces of silver.

But since I think the prophecy is correctly recorded and accurate, the Lord typically influences matters so that any number of people or means for fulfilling the prophecy can respond to His plan according to their agency. The plan was for the Son of God to be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver; this was no secret to the adversary; people made choices in heeding both the Lord’s influence and the devil’s through the millennia to bring that about.

There is no causing or coercing on the Lord’s part whatsoever in anything He does. The decision had been made, long before the prophecies about Him, that mankind needed an Atoning Savior in the way He was provided. Judas chose to do what he did, as inspired by the adversary and the mores of his day.

[Rob Osborn]

In other words, God doesn't have a foreknowledge of our future choices.  He is no different from you or I in that regard, in that he only knows what people will choose once they have chosen, right?

 

One example is Judas.  2 choices were made, one was to betray Christ for 40 pieces of silver, the other was to offer 40 pieces of silver.  These choices were known with certainty long before they were ever made.  The accuracy in the account from the prophetic foreknowledge cannot be explained except through a perfect foreknowledge of our choices by God.  To say otherwise would be to say that God caused or coerced these choices of betrayal in order to fulfill prophecy.  You can't convince me of that. 

Many propecies were fulfilled by Christ. Christ also knew of these prophecies and so he acted in accordance with that knowledge to ensure the prophecy would happen. Another that comes to mind is Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey for the purpose of fulfilling prophecy. One of the reasons Judas received 30 pieces of silver was that was the price of a slave and so it is- the price of Christ's blood is paid in full for the price of the slave/ prisoner in hell. The scriptures refer to Christ counseling with them to ensure that the potters field is bought to fulfill prophecy.

[pogi]

I’m not sure you can use this as an example considering the examples of fallibility and lack of accuracy you pointed out for other scriptural records of prophecy about the future. You just made the same mistake yourself—it was 30, not 40 pieces of silver.

 

If a prophecy actually comes true in all accuracy, we can safely say that the prophecy is an example of God's foreknowledge.  It wouldn't make sense to dismiss a prophecy on grounds of fallibility and lack of accuracy if it actually comes to fruition. 

 

 

But since I think the prophecy is correctly recorded and accurate, the Lord typically influences matters so that any number of people or means for fulfilling the prophecy can respond to His plan according to their agency. The plan was for the Son of God to be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver; this was no secret to the adversary; people made choices in heeding both the Lord’s influence and the devil’s through the millennia to bring that about.

There is no causing or coercing on the Lord’s part whatsoever in anything He does. The decision had been made, long before the prophecies about Him, that mankind needed an Atoning Savior in the way He was provided. Judas chose to do what he did, as inspired by the adversary and the mores of his day.

 

First, it sounds like you are saying that God influences many people (in case one falls through) short of coercing them to bring about his plan, but if you believe that God doesn't know for sure if we will choose to follow His influence, then you are leaving open the possibility that His plan will fail.  There is no way around this dilemma in your theory. 

 

Second, this would not correctly be defined as "foreknowledge", but is nothing more than God influencing others to make his plan work.  There are two problems with this.  One problem is this - how is it that God can influence man to bring about his prophecies with exquisite accuracy and obedience, and yet he cannot influence us to obey His commandments with much degree of success?  This whole theory places way too much faith in man's willingness to follow God. His foreknowledge must be based on more than his ability to influence man, or the risk for failure is way too high.  Do you see how that shifts our faith off of God, and places it all on man.  My faith is not in man's ability to give heed and obedience to God.  My faith is in God's perfect, infallible, all-seeing, all-knowing, foreknowledge and promise that his plan will not fail.  How could he make such a promise if it is all up to us to make it happen?  We are too unreliable to make such a promise.

Edited December 5, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

What I think He doesn’t know is who will yet reject or realize exaltation (despite present appearances) until all He has done in His foresight to keep our options open has been exhausted.

 

God gives us all the opportunities and every chance at salvation, not because he doesn't know what we will choose, but because it is required for His justice and mercy to be perfect.  Even though He knows what we will choose, he must let us choose it for ourselves, or there is no true justice.

[pogi]

Many propecies were fulfilled by Christ. Christ also knew of these prophecies and so he acted in accordance with that knowledge to ensure the prophecy would happen. Another that comes to mind is Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey for the purpose of fulfilling prophecy. 

 

Christ acting to ensuring that a prophecy would happen sounds an awful lot like coercion to me. 

Did Christ also make the donkey be tied up exactly where he said it would be found?  He also prophesied that the owners of the donkey would allow the apostles to take the donkey if they said "the Lord hath need of him."  Did Jesus also make the owners allow the donkey to be taken?  Interesting that Jesus knew that the owners would choose to let the apostles take the donkey, isn't it? 

Edited December 5, 2013 by pogi

[CV75]

God gives us all the opportunities and every chance at salvation, not because he doesn't know what we will choose, but because it is required for His justice and mercy to be perfect.  Even though He knows what we will choose, he must let us choose it for ourselves, or there is no true justice.

If every opportuntiy for salvation is required for His perfect justice and mercy, then that is enough and it doesn't matter if He knows what we will choose or not. In fact, it relieves Him of that added task of having to know.

[pogi]

If every opportuntiy for salvation is required for His perfect justice and mercy, then that is enough and it doesn't matter if He knows what we will choose or not. In fact, it relieves Him of that added task of having to know.

 

He must know for me to have faith in Him.  I cannot place faith in Him or His plan if He cannot promise me through His foreknowledge that His plan will actually work, and that He actually does know the beginning from the end. 

Edited December 5, 2013 by pogi

[CV75]

If a prophecy actually comes true in all accuracy, we can safely say that the prophecy is an example of God's foreknowledge.  It wouldn't make sense to dismiss a prophecy on grounds of fallibility and lack of accuracy if it actually comes to fruition.

Absolutely. And foreknowledge is faith.

 

First, it sounds like you are saying that God influences many people (in case one falls through) short of coercing them to bring about his plan...

No… I think you’re trying to read my posts with as jaundiced a view as possible! I don’t think you will be able to understand them through the process of my explaining everything they are not. There is no coercion needed for a perfect plan that respects agency to the point of condemning or exalting those it was designed to bless.

 

Second, this would not correctly be defined as "foreknowledge", but is nothing more than God influencing others to make his plan work.  There are two problems with this.  One problem is this - how is it that God can influence man to bring about his prophecies with exquisite accuracy and obedience, and yet he cannot influence us to obey His commandments with much degree of success?  This whole theory places way too much faith in man's willingness to follow God. His foreknowledge must be based on more than his ability to influence man, or the risk for failure is way too high.  Do you see how that shifts our faith off of God, and places it all on man.  My faith is not in man's ability to give heed and obedience to God.  My faith is in God's perfect, infallible, all-seeing, all-knowing, foreknowledge and promise that his plan will not fail.  How could he make such a promise if it is all up to us to make it happen?  We are too unreliable to make such a promise.

I take your question as asking whether or not it was possible for Jesus to fail. In some ways He did (He died), but ultimately He made Himself immortal—that is the whole point. The same with the Apostasy—it was a failure in a sense, but it was overcome with the Restoration. But I think this is a very superficial assessment of failure.

I think God precisely works through others to make His plan work. And it takes all kinds, knowing that there is opposition in all things. Once He makes His plan public in prophecy, it is virtually self-fulfilling not because the eternal law underlying the prophecy is coercive, but because the eternal law is that good in the last day the forces of good overrun the forces of evil. Where one picks an eternal law, he will not pick the inferior, evil counterfeit and live by that lesser law.

God cannot have too much faith in man’s willingness to follow Him, when that is how we got here in the first place, and He has done everything possible for us to voluntarily choose Him. This is the time for testing in this second estate that which has already been proven in the first estate (Abraham 3:25). And it is a test.

I believe that God’s faith in us or anything else has nothing to do with a fear of risking failure and everything to do with His all-powerful abilities and His godly attributes in dealing with how we handle our agency. While He has faith in Himself, we must have faith in Him. Knowing tht He has faith in His Son and us is a great comfort and encouragement to choose the right.

[CV75]

He must know for me to have faith in Him.  I cannot place faith in Him or His plan if He cannot promise me through His foreknowledge that His plan will actually work, and that He actually does know the beginning from the end. 

I have faith in God anyway. I believe He has promised that His plan will work and that He knows what He is talking about (the exalted, eternal life that He lives) and that is enough for me.

[pogi]

No… I think you’re trying to read my posts with as jaundiced a view as possible! I don’t think you will be able to understand them through the process of my explaining everything they are not. There is no coercion needed for a perfect plan that respects agency to the point of condemning or exalting those it was designed to bless.

 

I said "short of coercion." 

 

 

I take your question as asking whether or not it was possible for Jesus to fail. In some ways He did (He died), but ultimately He made Himself immortal—that is the whole point. The same with the Apostasy—it was a failure in a sense, but it was overcome with the Restoration. But I think this is a very superficial assessment of failure.

 

No, Christ's death was part of the plan, that is not failure.  Failure would have been for Christ to choose not to drink of the cup.  You are measuring failure too superficially.  Failure would have been for Adam not to eat of the fruit.  Somehow, God knew that they would choose in the way that they did.  Not out of trust, but out of "knowledge". 

 

I have faith in God anyway. I believe He has promised that His plan will work and that He knows what He is talking about (the exalted, eternal life that He lives) and that is enough for me.

 

How can he promise that with surety if it is dependent on our obedience, which he is not sure of?  He has promised that His purposes "will not fail."  You are stripping him of this sure knowledge by making His purposes dependent upon our choices which he is not sure of (according to you).

 

God does not have faith in us.  You are diluting faith into realms of fallibility.  There are some that will not return, does he have faith in them too?

Edited December 5, 2013 by pogi

[Rob Osborn]

Christ acting to ensuring that a prophecy would happen sounds an awful lot like coercion to me. 

Did Christ also make the donkey be tied up exactly where he said it would be found?  He also prophesied that the owners of the donkey would allow the apostles to take the donkey if they said "the Lord hath need of him."  Did Jesus also make the owners allow the donkey to be taken?  Interesting that Jesus knew that the owners would choose to let the apostles take the donkey, isn't it? 

Well when you have legions of angels at your command and these angels can and do influence people in the mortal world then all things are possible. An angel appeared unto Marry to tell her what to expect and also what to name the child. Its called God's active influence working on us as instruments in his hands. Do you think it is coercion for an angel appearing before Marry and telling her what the name of the unborn child shall be?-

 

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

 

God's prophecies work because of hos holy operations intearcting with man of the which without his active action his prophecies would not come to pass.

[Rob Osborn]

I said "short of coercion." 

 

 

 

No, Christ's death was part of the plan, that is not failure.  Failure would have been for Christ to choose not to drink of the cup.  You are measuring failure too superficially.  Failure would have been for Adam not to eat of the fruit.  Somehow, God knew that they would choose in the way that they did.  Not out of trust, but out of "knowledge". 

 

 

How can he promise that with surety if it is dependent on our obedience, which he is not sure of?  He has promised that His purposes "will not fail."  You are stripping him of this sure knowledge by making His purposes dependent upon our choices which he is not sure of (according to you).

 

God does not have faith in us.  You are diluting faith into realms of fallibility.  There are some that will not return, does he have faith in them too?

God has to have faith in us otherwise we have no agency. When God created Lucifer he had faith that he would be eventually exalted just like the rest of his children. At some point Lucifer chose to become evil. This was after he was already in high authoritive position in heaven. At some point after Lucifers creation, but before he became totally evil, God probably was able to see where things were headed. Up to that point though God had faith in him otherwise he would of never let him attain an authority position in heaven to more easily lead his children astray.