Towards A Better Understanding Of Agency

[Rob Osborn]

I am constantly revising in my mind, or trying to "resolve" certain concepts that bring a better understanding of the gospel to myself. One of those concepts is that of "agency". Agency is a hard topic to define and even fit into an eternal perspective. If anyone has ever done any research on the topic they will find it can be one of the most debated topics in philosophy. Properly defining it can be a matter of great debate. Concepts of "free will", "liberty" and "freedom" are closely tied into agency and whereas they are all very similar concepts there is some debate as to how each one applies and is defined next to each other. I don't really want to discuss those aspects of definitions so much. I want to discuss how agency applies to us and is defined so that I myself and others may gain a better understanding of this simple yet complex topic.

In the gospel definition, agency is defined as- "the power to make choices". In the many dictionaries available agency is defined as- " the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power : operation"

I am not sure if just the generic definition of "the power to make choices" makes a lot of sense from the gospel standpoint. One can seemingly always make choices or have the power to choose even if those choices are not good to some degree. For me it doesnt quite work. I The power to make choices is more tied to freedom and liberty than agency. To me, agency is more of an "action" word, quite literally. For instance- Suppose I was navigating a very bad washed out mountain road in a rainstorm. Because of the rain, the road's ruts had become even deeper and dangerous from which falling into would lead into a situation where one couldnt possibly get out very easily. At this point I have this power of choice- weighing all my options. But, until I begin acting upon those choices I havent exercised "agency". Agency is the condition of operation according to the power of choice. Its two parts. So, lets say I find the best preconceived course and begin navigating the road. My capacity of agency only works if I stay out of the rut. I remain in control, I exert the capacity of free operation according to my free will (choice) as I navigate the road staying out of the rut. But then suppose that I had misjudged and fall, outside of my seeming free will, into this rut. At this point what capacity of mine is hindered> Is it my free will or is it my agency? This gets kind of debateable here but in truth if I am no longer able to control the Jeep (agency) then I have lost the capacity to act and exert power according to my free will. At this point one can use this analogy with understanding agency.

In the gospel sense we have these ruts which are sins. We wish to stay out of them but inevitably we all fail to correctly judge and slip into these ruts where we fall out of control to act according to our own will. This is called "the fall", our own individual fall into spiritual death. At this point we become captive to the effects eternally acting upon us according to the justice of God's laws. In small degrees these ruts of sin take away our agency- our ability to control eternally where and what we will become. These ruts are what are described as the "chains of hell" which give the devil power to do his will and bring us captive down to destruction. Without some external cause to lift us out of these eternal ruts we have no control over our actions regardless of our free will to choose otherwise. We may hope and choose in our minds all we want to be out of the rut but until that external force brings us out of that rut our agency is rather mute, nonexistent. Here is where Christ comes into play. As the Savior He came into the world to redeem all that will obey his voice. To those who listen and obey He freely lifts them from their ruts of sin and places them again in their state where they are free to act. Thus Christ is able to restore the "action" part or "agency" which allows us, after making bad choices, to repent and navigate the washed out path of life keeping clear of the ruts of sin and eventually allowing us to navigate our way to our destination safely. In scripture there are two verses that sum this up well-

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. (2 Nephi 2:26)

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Galatians 5:1)

Agency as described in verse 26 is an "action" meaning "to act for themselves". Its opposite, or the loss of such agency is defined as "be acted upon". Of paramount importance is that without Christ to redeem us from our spiritual fall (through repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel) we remain in the state of being "acted upon" which are the eternal consequences of sin according to the justice of God. Look at it this way, lets state the scripture in a slightly different wording-

26 And if the Messiah had not cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall they could not be redeemed. And because that they are not redeemed from the fall they would have become captive forever, knowing good from evil; but unable to act for themselves and instead are to be acted upon, by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

This tells us something important about agency. If it wasn't for Christ redeeming the faithful from spiritual death our agency would be forever destroyed. Now, what were Satan's plans? To destroy our agency. Well, it looks to me as long as he gets us into the ruts of sin and keeps us there he does just that- destroys our agency.

[Arelius]

I am constantly revising in my mind, or trying to "resolve" certain concepts that bring a better understanding of the gospel to myself. One of those concepts is that of "agency". Agency is a hard topic to define and even fit into an eternal perspective. If anyone has ever done any research on the topic they will find it can be one of the most debated topics in philosophy. Properly defining it can be a matter of great debate. Concepts of "free will", "liberty" and "freedom" are closely tied into agency and whereas they are all very similar concepts there is some debate as to how each one applies and is defined next to each other. I don't really want to discuss those aspects of definitions so much. I want to discuss how agency applies to us and is defined so that I myself and others may gain a better understanding of this simple yet complex topic.

 

[Stroopwafel]

That address from Richard N. Williams was interesting, but still it fell short on dealing with the real issue, in my opinion.

 

Rob, since you seem serious about considering this issue, I recommend that you read Arthur Schopenhauer's essay On the Freedom of the Will. With such a title, obviously it doesn't address directly "agency", but you'll find more than enough food for thought in this work. Well, at least I did; this essay made a strong impression on my mind, and still does.

 

One sentence that made one such impression was (from memory): "man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wants."

[Robert F. Smith]

As a practical matter, the term "agency" has abstract and legal meanings which make it somewhat opaque to most people, thus leading to confusion as to it's actual, everyday meaning.  Lawyers understand "agency," for example, as the authority to act for a private or governmental entity (FBI agents, insurance agents, etc.).  Such authority may be express or implied.

 

Most people have a better understanding of "free choice," meaning that they have fundamental, individual rights to make choices among various alternatives (opposites), assuming that (1) the law guarantees such rights, and (2) that they have the wherewithal and opportunity to exercise such free choice.  In some polities or societies, it is not possible to exercise free choice, either because "wrong" choices will be punished, or that opportunity is absent.

 

Moreover, normative dogmatic Judeo-Christian theology exposes itself to an infinite regress of evil by making humans and all creation finite and entirely dependent (contingent) on God – which also quashes free agency (freedom is only possible in an indeterminate universe in which humans are independent actors).  At least Calvinist theology attempts to consistently maintain the sovereignty of God in such matters by ignoring free will entirely and allowing salvation by grace only to those predestined to receive it.

 

For His success to have meant anything, Jesus had to have the real possibility of failure.  It was entirely His choice.  And so it is with all of us, provided we have adequate knowledge of our real choices and the consequences of our various choices.  If, for example, John Doe chooses to smoke a rock of cocaine, he is then free to feel the euphoric effects of massive endorphin release, but he will soon find himself trapped and not free from his addiction.  His absolute master will soon be Mr. Rock, and he will sell his soul to possess it.  In theory, his free agency still exists (he can choose to end his addiction, but with great difficulty), but as a practical matter he is now a slave -- and, in the words of Bob Dylan, "like a rolling stone."

 

Thus, our choices can either broaden or narrow our future options.  Mormonism is very pluralistic in the sense that it is tolerant of other social constructions and of free agency everywhere, for everybody, except in internal LDS Church boundary maintenance and discipline.  We are free to have eternal life, but only if we obey and endure to the end (D&C 14:7).  It is our choice.

 

I Sam 15:22, “Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,

and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

D&C 130:20, “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundation of this world,

upon which all blessings are predicated – 

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it

is predicated.”

[Rob Osborn]

As a practical matter, the term "agency" has abstract and legal meanings which make it somewhat opaque to most people, thus leading to confusion as to it's actual, everyday meaning.  Lawyers understand "agency," for example, as the authority to act for a private or governmental entity (FBI agents, insurance agents, etc.).  Such authority may be express or implied.

 

Most people have a better understanding of "free choice," meaning that they have fundamental, individual rights to make choices among various alternatives (opposites), assuming that (1) the law guarantees such rights, and (2) that they have the wherewithal and opportunity to exercise such free choice.  In some polities or societies, it is not possible to exercise free choice, either because "wrong" choices will be punished, or that opportunity is absent.

 

Moreover, normative dogmatic Judeo-Christian theology exposes itself to an infinite regress of evil by making humans and all creation finite and entirely dependent (contingent) on God – which also quashes free agency (freedom is only possible in an indeterminate universe in which humans are independent actors).  At least Calvinist theology attempts to consistently maintain the sovereignty of God in such matters by ignoring free will entirely and allowing salvation by grace only to those predestined to receive it.

 

For His success to have meant anything, Jesus had to have the real possibility of failure.  It was entirely His choice.  And so it is with all of us, provided we have adequate knowledge of our real choices and the consequences of our various choices.  If, for example, John Doe chooses to smoke a rock of cocaine, he is then free to feel the euphoric effects of massive endorphin release, but he will soon find himself trapped and not free from his addiction.  His absolute master will soon be Mr. Rock, and he will sell his soul to possess it.  In theory, his free agency still exists (he can choose to end his addiction, but with great difficulty), but as a practical matter he is now a slave -- and, in the words of Bob Dylan, "like a rolling stone."

 

Thus, our choices can either broaden or narrow our future options.  Mormonism is very pluralistic in the sense that it is tolerant of other social constructions and of free agency everywhere, for everybody, except in internal LDS Church boundary maintenance and discipline.  We are free to have eternal life, but only if we obey and endure to the end (D&C 14:7).  It is our choice.

 

I Sam 15:22, “Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,

and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

D&C 130:20, “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundation of this world,

upon which all blessings are predicated – 

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it

is predicated.”

I have a close friend who at one point was in and out of jail on various charges relating to his then Meth addiction. I asked him if at any point he felt like he wasnt in control. His reply was that it was as if he was playing tug of war between what his physical body wanted and what he wanted long term in his mind- being free, clean, have relationship with son, etc. It brought to my mind a scripture relation to this very thing of how the law of sin works-

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Romans 7:23)

His captivity to this sin, this addiction, had destroyed a measure of his agency. Righteous choices leading to a greater agency whereas bad choices to a destruction or loss of agency. I think we can speak of agency as twofold both on a physical as well as spiritual level of the which most times effecting both at the same time. But is this the "agency" spoken of in scripture?

[Rivers]

Several times I have heard it said that the term "free agency" is an incorrect and that the proper term is simply "agency."  And this is because agency is not free.  I have always disagreed with this notion.  According to Mormon theology, we are all uncreated intelligence and this makes us absolutely free.  The freedom isn't given to us for a price.  It just is. 

 

In mormonism, agency is critical because the freedom to make choices is what allows us to grow and develop.  I like this much better than the Calvinist way of thinking.  I feel that it is empowering to to know that we can improve and progress thorough our own choices rather than being completely dependent on God.  But at the same time, we are dependent on God.  Its kind of a paradox.

[Robert F. Smith]

I have a close friend who at one point was in and out of jail on various charges relating to his then Meth addiction. I asked him if at any point he felt like he wasnt in control. His reply was that it was as if he was playing tug of war between what his physical body wanted and what he wanted long term in his mind- being free, clean, have relationship with son, etc. It brought to my mind a scripture relation to this very thing of how the law of sin works-

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Romans 7:23)

His captivity to this sin, this addiction, had destroyed a measure of his agency. Righteous choices leading to a greater agency whereas bad choices to a destruction or loss of agency. I think we can speak of agency as twofold both on a physical as well as spiritual level of the which most times effecting both at the same time. But is this the "agency" spoken of in scripture?

I suppose so, although I was raised in the Church when the phrase was always "free agency."  Then came a change and preference for the more abstract term, which I think misses the mark in practical terms.  Also, I seldom differentiate the spiritual and physical.  Maybe you could give us a tutorial on why we should differentiate.  If not, I have appreciated this thread of yours.  An important subject.

[Rivers]

I suppose so, although I was raised in the Church when the phrase was always "free agency."  Then came a change and preference for the more abstract term, which I think misses the mark in practical terms.  Also, I seldom differentiate the spiritual and physical.  Maybe you could give us a tutorial on why we should differentiate.  If not, I have appreciated this thread of yours.  An important subject.

Isn't the term "free agency" reduntant since the word "agency" means freedom to choose?  Its like saying free freedom to choose. 

[Rob Osborn]

I suppose so, although I was raised in the Church when the phrase was always "free agency."  Then came a change and preference for the more abstract term, which I think misses the mark in practical terms.  Also, I seldom differentiate the spiritual and physical.  Maybe you could give us a tutorial on why we should differentiate.  If not, I have appreciated this thread of yours.  An important subject.

There are two angles to this agency (Spiritual, Physical)and I have had a hard time trying to figure out the connection- the why of it. Let me give a for instance-

About 15 years ago I had the first of several night terror incidents that were brought on by the spiritual aspect. A complete and overwhelming feeling of gloom had come over my spirit, strong impressions that it was somehow too late. What was too late? Not sure but it was a very terrifying feeling. I soon found myself frantically pleading out for help physically with my voice and spiritually to God in serious prayer. For quite some time this overwhelming feeling of it being too late, I had lost, nothing else I could do and everything from this point on meant nothing- I couldnt go back, couldnt redo. In fact I found myself in the clutches of both physical captivity even though I had every physical function and could choose to go anywhere I wanted, and spiritual captivity as this feeling of complete darkness filled my soul. Through much steady prayer, over and over the feeling passed. I have had several more of these incidents over the year in which I term "facing the dragon" and have come to terms that this feeling must be the feeling of what outer darkness must be- nothing could be more terrifying and captivating. I have applied this to my study of evil and agency because I think we largely miss that "agency" and "liberty" as used in the spiritual sense of the gospel refers not so much as to a physical captivity as it does a spiritual captivity- not being at peace with Godly things in our spirit/mind. This is where I think the gospel means as far as the destruction of our agency. It has the trickle effect though of effecting the physical agency of our bodies being also deprived of feel good senses, etc.

The flip side of this agency is the physical part- I could be locked up in solitary confinement, shut out from the light of day in the darkest prison. Lets say that this were to happen- wrongly convicted and this was my demise. In all definitions my "agency" is extremely hindered or lost. But, this isnt the loss of agency of the mind or the spirit- that which Christ speaks so much of and also the BoM prophets speak of. Remeber Alma the Younger, he went around seeking to destroy the church and his all too wise Father prayed and pleaded to God for his son. An angel came and showed him the terror of his actions and where he would end up. Eventually he is forgiven and receives the opposite and gains a complete joy in his mind- the chains of hell were broken from his spirit and he had joy. Now, going back to the prison solitary confinement scenario, I can physically be unable to exercise my will, but the will of the devil has no power over me and I am free because Christ has set me free spiritully and in this eternal sense I am not being acted upon spiritually even though physically I am being acted upon temporarily.

This is why I say that agency is a dual concept effecting us coming from both the physical and spiritual aspect of gospel terms

[CV75]

This is why I say that agency is a dual concept effecting us coming from both the physical and spiritual aspect of gospel terms

D&C 93: 31-33 explains that existence (all kinds--spiritual, physical, temporal, eternal) is dependent on truth and intelligence acting for themselves. In the case where man is spirit, iagency is to receive the light from Christ.

 

Agency to me then, is the action of the human spirit receiving and using the light he willingly receives from the Lord. Because the human spirit derives meaning from this, agency informs his existence through the application of truth (knowledge) and light (intelligence, or the benefit of truth) according to the Lord.

 

Man had agency in the first estate as spirit, and the Lord again gave it to him in the Garden of Eden in the sense that He added the physical state to what we could now receive for existence. Together our spiritual and physical existence (inseparably connected, meaning eternal and not temporal) can be a fulness of joy as agency is perfected both spiritually and physically.

[changed]

... we are all uncreated intelligence and this makes us absolutely free.  The freedom isn't given to us for a price.  It just is.

DC 93

 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the ^clight of ^dtruth, was not ^ecreated or made, neither indeed can be.

 31 Behold, here is the agency of man

I agree that agency is a result of our uncreated existence (our actions cannot be blamed on the creator - on how we were made, because we were not created) but freedom does come at a price, God has given us choices that were not available to us without the atonement. 

Personally, I'm a determinist who also believes in free agency.  Free will does not exist without determinism, free will is "determining" one's own actions, and is therefore deterministic in nature.  The future is set in stone, God "knows" everything, but God did not "cause" everything - we are our own cause, which is why we have free will. 

[thesometimesaint]

Rob:

 

We get to choose our actions. We don't get to choose the consequences of those actions. To use your car on a bad mountain road example. Yes you have the Agency to drive on it in any manner you wish. If you exceed the limits of the coefficient of traction you can not choose what will happen as a response.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob:

 

We get to choose our actions. We don't get to choose the consequences of those actions. To use your car on a bad mountain road example. Yes you have the Agency to drive on it in any manner you wish. If you exceed the limits of the coefficient of traction you can not choose what will happen as a response.

Yes, agency is given to us to act in choices without being acted upon. When we choose right we can continue to act without consequence but when we choose wrong the consequence takes away that agency bit by bit or entirely.

[CV75]

The future is set in stone, God "knows" everything, but God did not "cause" everything - we are our own cause, which is why we have free will. 

I think the perfect existence, or the perfect exercise of agency (which God knows perfectly), is set in stone through the merits of Christ. But we can choose otherwise and carve out our own lesser existence (Compare Isaiah 50: 7 with verse 11). I think God turns these lesser realities over to “ministers” as in D&C 76: 86-88.

[Rob Osborn]

God cant possibly know everything. Agency demands there to be choice between at least two outcomes. If the future were perfectly already set in stone according to Gods foreknowledge then God is left without agency because he has no choice, only able to do only what is written precisely for him to do including every thought, word, and action. There is no providence and thus no agency in that.

[changed]

God cant possibly know everything. Agency demands there to be choice between at least two outcomes. If the future were perfectly already set in stone according to Gods foreknowledge then God is left without agency because he has no choice, only able to do only what is written precisely for him to do including every thought, word, and action. There is no providence and thus no agency in that.

Of coarse God knows everything, the GA's agree with me:

http://www.lds.org/search?q=all-knowing〈=eng&domains=general-conference

You walk on very dangerous grounds to suggest that God does not know everything, I mean what if there were a better way to find salvation?  what if Jesus did not have to die?  What if things don't turn out for the best in the end?  Either God is all-knowing, or it's impossible to have faith and hope in anything. 

When you make a choice about something important, is this choice created in a single moment? or is it something you have contemplated for a long time, a choice that represents your character, your personality, your spirit?  A choice involving free-will is one that is well thought out, a testiment of who we are, and who we always will be... This is the unchanging part of God - or perhaps the timeless part of God.  A choice that does not come from that timeless eternal core of who we are is not from our will.

Are we all trapped by the eternal nature of our spirit? perhaps, but we trap ourselves - not by soemthing someone else has written, but by who we eternally are.

Edited December 1, 2013 by changed

[Rob Osborn]

Of coarse God knows everything, the GA's agree with me:

http://www.lds.org/search?q=all-knowing〈=eng&domains=general-conference

You walk on very dangerous grounds to suggest that God does not know everything, I mean what if there were a better way to find salvation?  what if Jesus did not have to die?  What if things don't turn out for the best in the end?  Either God is all-knowing, or it's impossible to have faith and hope in anything. 

When you make a choice about something important, is this choice created in a single moment? or is it something you have contemplated for a long time, a choice that represents your character, your personality, your spirit?  A choice involving free-will is one that is well thought out, a testiment of who we are, and who we always will be... This is the unchanging part of God - or perhaps the timeless part of God.  A choice that does not come from that timeless eternal core of who we are is not from our will.

Are we all trapped by the eternal nature of our spirit? perhaps, but we trap ourselves - not by soemthing someone else has written, but by who we eternally are.

God can only know everything possible to be known. The future cannot be completely known. That would nullify agency.

[Robert F. Smith]

Isn't the term "free agency" reduntant since the word "agency" means freedom to choose?  Its like saying free freedom to choose. 

I tried in post #4, but apparently did not succeed, to explain why the two terms go together so well, but maybe I simply got used to the old way back when David O. McKay was Pres.

 

The problem is that "agency" means a whole lot of things -- the semantic range is too broad.

[Robert F. Smith]

There are two angles to this agency (Spiritual, Physical)and I have had a hard time trying to figure out the connection- the why of it. Let me give a for instance-

About 15 years ago I had the first of several night terror incidents that were brought on by the spiritual aspect. A complete and overwhelming feeling of gloom had come over my spirit, strong impressions that it was somehow too late. What was too late? Not sure but it was a very terrifying feeling. I soon found myself frantically pleading out for help physically with my voice and spiritually to God in serious prayer. For quite some time this overwhelming feeling of it being too late, I had lost, nothing else I could do and everything from this point on meant nothing- I couldnt go back, couldnt redo. In fact I found myself in the clutches of both physical captivity even though I had every physical function and could choose to go anywhere I wanted, and spiritual captivity as this feeling of complete darkness filled my soul. Through much steady prayer, over and over the feeling passed. I have had several more of these incidents over the year in which I term "facing the dragon" and have come to terms that this feeling must be the feeling of what outer darkness must be- nothing could be more terrifying and captivating. I have applied this to my study of evil and agency because I think we largely miss that "agency" and "liberty" as used in the spiritual sense of the gospel refers not so much as to a physical captivity as it does a spiritual captivity- not being at peace with Godly things in our spirit/mind. This is where I think the gospel means as far as the destruction of our agency. It has the trickle effect though of effecting the physical agency of our bodies being also deprived of feel good senses, etc.

The flip side of this agency is the physical part- I could be locked up in solitary confinement, shut out from the light of day in the darkest prison. Lets say that this were to happen- wrongly convicted and this was my demise. In all definitions my "agency" is extremely hindered or lost. But, this isnt the loss of agency of the mind or the spirit- that which Christ speaks so much of and also the BoM prophets speak of. Remeber Alma the Younger, he went around seeking to destroy the church and his all too wise Father prayed and pleaded to God for his son. An angel came and showed him the terror of his actions and where he would end up. Eventually he is forgiven and receives the opposite and gains a complete joy in his mind- the chains of hell were broken from his spirit and he had joy. Now, going back to the prison solitary confinement scenario, I can physically be unable to exercise my will, but the will of the devil has no power over me and I am free because Christ has set me free spiritully and in this eternal sense I am not being acted upon spiritually even though physically I am being acted upon temporarily.

This is why I say that agency is a dual concept effecting us coming from both the physical and spiritual aspect of gospel terms

I see what you mean.  Thanks.

 

It sounds to me as tho you experienced a classic Dark Night of the Soul.  I have always understood that it can lead to considerable spiritual growth.  Was that the case for you?

[Rob Osborn]

I see what you mean.  Thanks.

 

It sounds to me as tho you experienced a classic Dark Night of the Soul.  I have always understood that it can lead to considerable spiritual growth.  Was that the case for you?

Not quite sure. I do have a very real belief in evil and Satan because of it

[changed]

God can only know everything possible to be known. The future cannot be completely known. That would nullify agency.

I still don't agree that knowledge would nullify agency - knowing something, and causing it, are two very different things.  I can know what will be on TV tonight without taking away anyone's agency. I don't think the observer's paradox applies to God.... do you think He takes away someone's agency every time a prophecy of the future is made? 

Edited December 2, 2013 by changed

[ksfisher]

http://www.withoutend.org/agency-lds-theology-misunderstood-concept/

[Rob Osborn]

I still don't agree that knowledge would nullify agency - knowing something, and causing it, are two very different things.  I can know what will be on TV tonight without taking away anyone's agency. I don't think the observer's paradox applies to God.... do you think He takes away someone's agency every time a prophecy of the future is made?

A perfect knowledge of the future cannot be known, not by us, not by God nor any other being. Prophecy works because decisions are made that help shape that prophecy or will it into reality. The key word or action here is "decision". Being able to decide or make "choice" in a matter defines what agency is. It means that something, in this case the future, is not already perfectly determined in every facet connected with it. I may decide to walk into a store and have several options of which order to fill my shopping list. In the end I still meet the requirement of the goal even if there are an endless set of ways to get from point A to point B. God does not necessarily know, nor can know, exactly which order I will choose all of my list items especially if I know beforehand that I am intentionally going to mix things up to make it harder to know. God can and does use his angels to persuade us and use us as instruments to do his will but this does not mean that he can know exactly how many steps I may take in exact sequence that leads to fulfilling the goal.

[changed]

God, Omniscience of

See also God, Foreknowledge of ; God, Wisdom of ; Knowledge ; TG God, Omniscience of

• all things done in wisdom of him who knoweth all things: 2 Ne. 2:24 .
• God knows all things, there is not anything except he knows it: 2 Ne. 9:20 . ( Morm. 8:17 . )
• God’s revelation reveals all things from foundation of world to end: 2 Ne. 27:10 .
• the Lord knows all works in dark: 2 Ne. 27:27 .
• by help of the Creator, Jacob² can tell his people their thoughts: Jacob 2:5 .
• the Spirit knoweth all things: Alma 7:13 .
• God knows all thoughts and intents of heart: Alma 18:32 .
• God comprehends all things: Alma 26:35 .
• God is mindful of every people: Alma 26:37 .
• ye cannot hide your crimes from God: Alma 39:8 .
• God knows time when all shall come forth from dead: Alma 40:4–5, 10, 21 .
• known unto God were all their cries and sufferings: Alma 60:10 .
• Christ knows his disciples’ thoughts: 3 Ne. 28:6 .
• the Lord shows brother of Jared²all inhabitants of earth who had been or would be: Ether 3:25 .
• God knows all things, being from everlasting to everlasting: Moro. 7:22 .

• the Lord’s eyes are on all men: D&C 1:1 .
• God alone knows men’s thoughts: D&C 6:16 . ( D&C 33:1 . )
• the Lord tells things no man knows: D&C 6:24 . ( D&C 15:3 . )
• the Lord knows all things: D&C 38:2 . ( D&C 130:7 . )
• the Lord knows men’s hearts: D&C 67:1 .
• the Lord comprehends all things: D&C 88:6, 41 .
• the Lord’s eyes see and know all men’s works: D&C 121:24 .
• past, present, and future are continually before the Lord: D&C 130:7 .

• all things are present with God: Moses 1:6 .
• the Lord knows all worlds that stand or have passed away: Moses 1:35 .
• the Lord tells Enoch² all doings of men: Moses 7:41 .
• the Lord showed Enoch² all things, unto end of world: Moses 7:67 .
• Jehovah knows end from beginning: Abr. 2:8 .
• God is more intelligent than all: Abr. 3:19 .

 

...God does not necessarily know, ... especially if I know beforehand that I am intentionally going to mix things up ...

I don't think you can "trick" God with anything, I think He really does know us well enough to know what we are going to do.

 

• Matthew 10:30

  30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered....

Alma 40:8...all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

I'm also not sure how time works beyond the veil, but I don't think there is much difference between past and future - I think He sees all of it.

Edited December 2, 2013 by changed

[Robert F. Smith]

God can only know everything possible to be known. The future cannot be completely known. That would nullify agency.

Rabbi Akiba believed that

"Everything is foreseen, yet freedom of choice is given;

the world is judged by grace, yet all is according to the amount of work" (Pirke Abot 3:19).

 

Seem like contradictions in terms.  However, there may simply be an undistributed middle term which we erroneously assume to be present in both cases.  Mormons have gotten on rather well, despite these seeming incommensurables.  Howso?  A hint may be found in Eugene England, “The Perfection and Progression of God: Two Spheres of Existence and Two Modes of

Discourse,” unpublished MS (Provo, ca. 1983); 22pp, including 42 endnotes.  Published in revised form in BYU Studies, 29/3 (Summer 1989), 31-47. Online at https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5930 .